Update on "dangerous horse?" post....kissing spine....

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KatB

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Thanks for all your replies to my previous post regarding my friends horse with "mystery" behaviour.

Her vet was adament he should be PTS after only checking his feet and bloods, so after much encouragement based on others experience, he went for X rays today as his last chance.

Unfortunately it turns out he has kissing spine aswell as concussion injuries in his feet
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What has been the prognosis with people have had with kissing spine? Experiences much appreciated, she is speaking to her vet re. the horse at the moment, but any stories, experiences would be appreciated.

Thanks
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Hi, one of mine was diagnosed with KS when 6 yrs old, he is now almost 20, he has since lived on bute / danilon and is fine...
He was a showjumper until then so obv he hasn't showjumped over about 3 ft 6''since ( he's 16.3 hh).
So as he was out of newcomers level and onto foxhunter level that was the end of his SJ career, since then he has just hacked about and jumped small at home etc but he is fine on the bute..
Pls do not ever consider havinf a horse PTS with KS as that wud be a selfish owner IMHO..
He is happy so I am happy, every now and then he has back massage etc and has a mirotec rug on in winter under rugs, they really help as he is cold backed also a magnetic rug helps..
What about the KS operation ? i never had it as i actually cud not afford to showjump anymore anyway.
 
She will do everything possible for this horse, but he is in quite alot of pain, and throws himself around alot when being ridden. He has also got to have corrective shoeing as he has very sore flat feet.

Good to hear of a success story though.
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The op is done much less often in N. America, as far as I can tell (not sure if the incidence of disease is the same or less) but I certainly know horses that have been managed with spinal arthritis and similar.

However generally they are limited, require careful management (meds, work load, scrupulous attention to shoeing, tack etc.), and I suspect they CAN even be considered dangerous to ride if the situation progresses or the protocol isn't followed. (I know a couple who were got usable in their competitive homes only to not stay that way in their "retirement" homes with less particular care).

Of course you do have to wonder how many horses are out there with these sorts of problems but undiagnosed because they a) don't show significant enough problems for people to look into b) their behaviours are seen to be training related and then DO improve when the riding and other factors are improved. at least enough to be serviceable or c) they end up doing so little work the situation manages itself.

Depending, of course, on the situation, the horse, the level of management and the expectations of the people involved I think there can be if not a positive at least a serviceable outcome, at least in the short term.

As far as the op, I've heard mixed reviews ranging from almost a cure to no improvement. I think it's impossible, though, to really judge without knowing all the specific factors involved, including the progression, how much attention was paid to rehab etc.

Her best bet is to speak the the experts, obviously. They may also be able to refer her to clients who have had similar situations attended to so she can compare notes.

Do I remember, was the horse fine before these episodes started? If he's new to her there is also the question of whether or not he'll be suitable for her even if he gets fixed. He's obviously had some trouble for some time and may very well need physical (riding) related and behavioural rehab even if the op does work.
 
She has owned the horse for 3yrs now, and was eventing him for the first 2 yrs no probs. Her vet has said the op isnt worth doing as the recovery rate is too low.
His "episodes" are seriously over the top, serious white out type reaction, no consideration for his surroundings or his own safety
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She is a very experienced rider.
 
Our lad is now 16 weeks post Kissing Spine op. He had 2 spinous processes removed and was ridden for the first time on Sunday.....he was like a different horse from the one that bolted bucked and threw you off before the op.

The rehab seems to be the important part, we had our lad operated on by Svend Kold at Willesleys and the rehab routine we were given was intense but helped loads. There are many people on here that have had horses go through this surgery that will all be loads of help. If there are any ways I can help or any questions you have just Pm me
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I know you mentioned which hospital the horse was at before, please please ask your friend to get him referred to WIllesely equine.

Which vet is it that has said these things....you can PM me if you want.

I dont like the sound of this vet at all, and I have a fair guess of which one he is.

If the horse was 'right' as recently as that, then there is such a good chance that he would come right again with the right treatement, from the right vet, at the right hospital...

as you know, Owen had kissing spine, was successfully operated on,and was out winning novice and elementary dressage and BSJA...if his new owner was into eventing, he would be doing well at that too I am sure!

As for the feet, I am optimistic that with the right shoeing and time that they would come right, again Svend at Willesely would be the best person to advise on that..

If your friend would like to PM me/email me she is more than welcome, she sounds as tho she might be pretty local...
 
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Her vet has said the op isnt worth doing as the recovery rate is too low.


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So typical of that hospital. How many KS failures have I heard about walking out of there. Exactly the reason why I boxed Owen 3 hours a way to Willesley. Where the recovery rates are high!
 
I've been reading this with interest. I've actually just come on to do a post about KS in veterinary.

One of ours has been diagnosed with KS a while ago, she presented with intermittent bi-lateral lameness and reduced performance. We have had a go with the palliative option (physio, steroids, and muscle relaxants) our vet and physio - who have been brilliant - assessed her yesterday although she shows some improvement she still isn't right so she is being referred to Liverpool for some scans.

I had previously thought the op was a no go (had heard it was not that successful plus the problems of anesthetic etc) Loads of people on here have mentioned Svend Kold and Willesley and I went and read up. The reported recovery rates (meaning fit to do what they were doing before not just sound) in the stuff I've read are 50%. I think it seems that if you get the right Vet you can have a good outcome, doesn't sound like you have the right Vet.

They are only human and they all have their own areas of interest, this Vet might be great for something else but I would get a second opinion from a Vet who is a specialist in this particular field (ie someone who is doing the ops all the time). They will be in a better position to judge the chances in this case.

If the Op isn't the right thing for this particular Horse and Owner then that is up to them but I do think they should have the chance to make an informed decision based on more than one professional opinion.
 
Why not try the horse for a couple of weeks on bute and see if there is much change, thats what i had to do..
Different horses react differently to being ridden with KS I surpose, but has it been sacnned too ?
I too think it needs a second opinion, mine did.!
 
Poor her and poor horse
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Depends on the severity but there is a good sucess rate with the operation.

Grinder has KS along with a couple of other things and he was dangerous to ride at his worst so we got LOU and retired him. He wasnt worth operating on due to his other problems
 
My horse had a ks op in January and had three spinous processes removed. He was napping and rearing and was first diagnosed with navicular due to some sort of impact or possibly due to his back probs - vet not really sure. That was at the Animal Health Trust. He has recovered remarkably well although it has been a long and tedious process. At the moment he is being lunged and ridden in walk (with a little trot when he gets away from me!!). He was only 5 when he was first diagnosed and has missed nearly two years education but I would do it all again. His whole temprement has changed and the more he realises work doesn't hurt any more the more confident he is becoming. I cannot praise my vet and the vet at Kearns and Rea who carried out the operation enough. There have been highs and lows but I think we are winning now.
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Rage came home yesterday after KS surgery at Willesley with Svend.
As others have said already.... I would wholeheartedly recommend him! He is very upbeat and makes you believe that anything is possible, but at the same time you know he wouldn't lead you on a wildgoose chase.

Honestly - ditch the negative vet she has at the moment and get a referral to Willesley!
 
The vet she has now is actually being quite helpful, BUT she is worried about putting her horse through the surgery, when the foot problem may be causing the pain aswell, so actually he'd be no better off after having the surgery and all the box rest etc that goes with it
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She would be heartbroken if she went through that and then had to have him PTS because his feet were still screwed. He is only 9 or ten and it seems unfair to keep him alive on bute. He is fine ,and then suddenly seems to have "attacks" of what they can only presume is pain, he throws himself about and shakes
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Thanks for all your help, will keep you updated....
 
My event mare had kissing spines and had surgery at Rossdales. They are brilliant and did a fantastic job. 6 months after the surgery you couldnt even see a scar. She recovered fully from the surgery and I would recommend it. Rossdales are in Newmarket and treat all the top racehorses. I would highly recommend them.
 
KatB thank you so much for trying to help. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
To everyone else, hello, thanks for your replies. I am the owner of this poor horse.
First thing i have to say is to VLHIEASTON is that i am anything but a selfish owner. I have been through numerous veterinary problems with my boy for the past 18 months. aswell as his kissing spines he has concussion and fluid build up in both his front coffin joints, have spent thousands of pounds on x rays nerve blocks and MRI scans. After this diagnosis he had serious remedial shoeing and monthly anti inflamatory injections. I was then allowed to start walking him in the school. However last tuesday he completely lost it, bucking and rearing and shaking to the point he had no control over what he was doing - hence further investigations where kissing spines has been diagnosed. This horse is in a huge amount of discomfort, he has major problems not only with his feet but now with his back and an unresolved white blood cell disorder. He shuffles around his stable, points a front leg and bucks and i mean seriously bucks when led out for grass. (bearing in mind this is probably the worlds most laid back, kind hearted easy going horse who has never ever bucked until this year)
I have had the hardest week ever (thanks so much KatB - you have helped keep me going)
My vet has been very good, but our main concern is that my poor boy is dangerous not only to me but to himself.
Surgery is not my favoured option, mainly because i think it is unfair on him to put him through anaesthetics, surgery another god knows how many months of box rest for an op with a reasonbly low sucess rate and knowing full well that he still has a major problem with his feet. however, my vet knows it is up to me and will back whatever decision i make entirely.
The other main question i ask is, is it fair to put a 10 yo horse on bute for the rest of his life? we don't know how much pain he is in as remember this is 2 painful problems we are dealing with not just 1 - so double the pain for him.
Also as KatB has described he is fine one min and 'completely looses it' the next indicating a stabbing pain. The bute may be enough to cover a numbing constant pain but maybe not his stabbing pain. He is far too dangerous to hack, again for his safety aswell as mine and what happens if he has an 'episode' one day when im not there and ends up crashing through the fencing....anything could happen to him or anybody else.
I love this horse to pieces, he means the world to me and i have cried my eyes out all week. But this is really such a tough tough decision.
At the moment he is on a large dose of bute, on box rest (as he isn't allowed out as ground too hard for his feet) with me hand grazing him, - not exactly much quality of life.

THANK YOU SO MUCH to anyone who got this far and esp to KatB.

ANY suggestions greatly appreciated
 
Have you looked at the rehab post KS surgery?
It really isn't months of box rest....

As a basic guideline:-
*First2 weeks post op - hand grazing as much as possible until stitches removed.
*2-6 weeks post op - hand walking,starting at 10mins and building up to 2hours-ish daily.
*6 weeks - startlunge work in pessoa.

By 12 weeks he should be walk,trot,canter in the pessoa and working over poles.
Restricted turnout can start at 6weeks.

Hope that helps - it really isn't a life sentence to box rest.
 
H - I know from KatB how much you have been through with this horse - it must be heartbreaking for you. I can't help you make a decision but what I will say is that he sounds to be in an enormous amount of discomfort and it must be very hard to see him like that. I know that whatever you decide will be in his best interests.
 
Thanks to everone who has replied.
I hd presumed there would be a long period of box rest....however, one more problem. this horse does not lunge / pessoa / long rein. He has never accepted being lunged so not sure where i would go from here....?
 
My lad has always been iffy to lunge, particularly to the left. This has been put down to his KS though, and we are just going to have to work through his issues as and when he starts lunging, and try and get it through to him that it no longer hurts like it did.
I'm sure if you spoke to Svend about your concerns he would help you come up with a solution.

What is the history on your lad? Sorry if this has already been posted
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Hi Bounty, very very long history.... but in brief... had him 3yrs evented sucesfully for 2. had last year off with unresolved white blood cell disorder. then begining of this year started bucking when ridden (v unusual as vvvv laid bk and well behaved!) bucking got worse and worse, also became stiffer to turn. pointing front leg etc etc, had nerve blocks, x rays, MRI scan which showed up lots of fluid and inflamation in coffin joints. Had remedial shoeing, weekly anti inflamatory injections and started walk work in school. Last tues, he completely lost it bucking and rearing to the point he had no self preservation, he was shaking and in a real state...so had back x rayed and found KS.
If you read my post (should be about half way up this page!?) it explains all my worries!!
He has always been uncontrollable on a lunge so never did it with him as it really seemed to upset him.
Thanks so much for your help
 
And history prior to you owning him?

IME the best thing you can possibly do to resolve issues within the feet is to take the shoes off! If necessary use boots and pads to help keep the movement there, you you will find without the shoes that his feet will sort themselves out as they will be able to absorb concussion in the way that they were designed to. If he has been shod consistently for years you may well find that he has some degree of long toe/low heel type conformation which will add to the strain down the back of the legs and subsequently the coffin joint.
Once he has healed then you can go back to the shoes if that is what you want (as much as I would like to do it myself, I will admit that eventing barefoot is far from ideal or safe!) but you will always have to be careful about what ground you run him on
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Still, better than no horse at all?
The MRI hasn't shown up the dreaded Navicular, which I think you have to be very thankful for!

You are welcome to PM me anytime
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They took his shoes off when he had his MRI and it made him so crippled he could barely walk at all! He now has egg bar shoes, dental impression putty and pads and i am very lucky that i have an olympic farrier shoeing him!! Forgot to say that he has sore soles aswell.

Previous history - he was a racehorse... from what i can tell by looking him up on the net he hurdled as a 4 / 5? yo. only seemed to run 2 or 3 times and didn't finish his last race? perhaps fell?
Not entirely sure what he did in the year or so after that before i bought him.
 
An the MRI/xrays etc showed no pedal bone rotation or dropping? It is odd that he would be 'crippled' without shoes if everything is where it should be.

I thought he may have been an ex-racer, that was what I was getting at with the past history question
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I'm so sorry you're going through such a horrible time with your horse.

I think you have to go with what your gut instinct is telling you, be that good or bad. You know your horse best of all, so know how he would cope with surgery etc. From the sound of the posts on here, the kissing spine surgery is possibly more successful than it used to be, so it may be worth considering?

I know what it's like to have a horse with a degenerative condition. You have done your absolute best for him and I'm sure whatever decision you make will be the right one for your horse.
 
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