Update on Summer

[catembi]

Following on from Summer kicking me in the face while I was field pasting her feet, I've had a behaviouralist out as I simply haven't been able to bring myself to pick her back feet up again. I can't remember the accident so didn't know what I'd done 'wrong'. Anyway, the behavouralist was v good, worked with her picking feet up with soft rope & padded walking stick, she was v v fine with it all...but she was shivering. Spasms in both back legs. They were frequent & very obvious. So the accident wasn't anything she did on purpose - quite the reverse - and it wasn't anything I could have seen coming from her body language. But now I am stuck with a £5.5k 7 yo shiverer. **sighs** I am pleased that I now understand what went wrong as it's really been troubling me, but not at all pleased I've got a shiverer.

Not sure what to do next. I could start sueing all & sundry (dealer won't consider taking her back as it's outside the 14 days), but it would be a lot of bother & I'm still off work with concussion, & the doctor specifically told me NOT to make any decisions atm! Sometimes it seems that The Universe doesn't want me to compete as every time I think I'm going to get going, I get smacked down to earth fairly swiftly. I got two weeks out of her before she went wrong, although I suppose I got two DAYS out of Trev... **sighs**

 

[Mule]

Oh no, I'm so sorry. I don't know what to say. That's horrible luck x

 

[Wheels]

Oh no, poor love (that's both of you!)

I don't know much about shiverers but I'm assuming it is a pre existing condition. If that is in the case would it not be worth pursuing the dealer?

 

[Mule]

Horses would make you cry sometimes :frown3:

 

[Haniki]

Oh no, how disappointing and frustrating for you.

 

[Rowreach]

Oh no, poor love (that's both of you!)

I don't know much about shiverers but I'm assuming it is a pre existing condition. If that is in the case would it not be worth pursuing the dealer?

Hmm I agree, this doesn't happen over night. I would talk to someone and get some advice (even though you're not meant to be making decisions right now) and I would pursue the dealer.

 

[Roxylola]

Have you spoken to the dealer? I follow a dodgy dealer page on facebook and most of the feedback about her has been positive in so far as that she was willing to exchange horses who were for any reason unsuitable although in some cases it took quite some time - I guess it depends what is suitable...
Also, although it is outside 14 days there are different rules when buying unseen I think.
Personally I'd take that approach first I think, if she is decent she had at least 2 you liked (the one you first rang about and Summer) so chances are she might find you something else.
Gutted for you though.

 

[catembi]

Yeah. This is my horse history...we will start in 2002 with Catembi and forget all the previous sick notes who came before him or we'd be here all year. I had 4 1/2 awesome years with Catembi, who got sick with protein losing enteropathy and died in Feb 2007 after a 6-month hard-fought battle. Enter Adrian, immaculate sj breeding, £8.5k price tag, after strong start, lost performance, & after 18 months of haemorrhaging money & me researching & researching, he turned out to have EPSM. Sold as a happy hacker for £500. Next up, Trev...serial self harmer, ulcers, KS surgery, never came right, tried repeated vet investigations & every alternative practitioner under the sun (that went for Adrian too), and now after a looooong wait, two divorces, finishing a doctorate in 4 years instead of 5 so I can get a new horse, I reward myself with...a shiverer. FFS...!!!!

 

[Mule]

I would also talk to the dealer. Nowadays with the internet, when someone has a reputation to uphold they have to be more accommodating than in pre internet days.

As you said yourself, it would be smart to wait until you are given the all clear to make a decision.

 

[Mule]

Yeah. This is my horse history...we will start in 2002 with Catembi and forget all the previous sick notes who came before him or we'd be here all year. I had 4 1/2 awesome years with Catembi, who got sick with protein losing enteropathy and died in Feb 2007 after a 6-month hard-fought battle. Enter Adrian, immaculate sj breeding, £8.5k price tag, after strong start, lost performance, & after 18 months of haemorrhaging money & me researching & researching, he turned out to have EPSM. Sold as a happy hacker for £500. Next up, Trev...serial self harmer, ulcers, KS surgery, never came right, tried repeated vet investigations & every alternative practitioner under the sun (that went for Adrian too), and now after a looooong wait, two divorces, finishing a doctorate in 4 years instead of 5 so I can get a new horse, I reward myself with...a shiverer. FFS...!!!!

Mabey bad luck comes in threes? Hopefully this will be the last of it

 

[Fools Motto]

I replied on your other thread.

I'd be tempted to phone the RVC and see if you can speak to someone who can give you answers.
Just an idea anyhow...

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I am so sorry to see this news, although at least she didn't intend to damage you. I doubt that the 14 days is valid, as this was obviously a pre-existing condition and the dealer *must* have known about it. However I know that you like the horse and probably don't want to send her back to the dealer, And there is a further complication as she came from over the water.

A friend had a very big, long-backed ID mare who had mild shivers, she did most things, including jumping, at RC level with her and had her pts recently in her 20s. She just worked round the shivers.

 

[ElleSkywalker]

Have you had a full diagnosis from your vet? It could be dealer is reluctant to do anything without an official diagnosis?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Wouldn't she have shown signs of true shivers before now, though? She's been seen by various vets and been to a trimming clinic since she's been over here. Could this be a new thing, maybe she's had a fall in the field and tweaked herself, perhaps.

Is it just the behaviourist who's spotted it?

 

[catembi]

I could spot it when he was handling her! The spasms are very obvious. No wonder I ended up with a hoof in the face. Definitely shivering! Her original trimmer told me that she 'wasn't right' behind & the people at the comp centre where she was for 6 weeks discussed her without me being there & thought there was 'something' wrong.

Phone call to vets in the morning.

 

[EventingMum]

That's rotten luck indeed. I would be tempted to get a vet's report and then if it's a conclusive diagnosis speak to the vet who vetted and the dealer concerned - both should be suitably insured and I doubt the 14 day warranty would apply in such circumstances. Also be prepared to have the bloods from the vetting analysed - I had a livery who appeared to be a shiverer, it came to light the first time she was shod after purchase and in the end it wasn't shivering but a whole catalogue of other issues. The vet had obviously been in cahoots with the dealer and it turned out there were several discrepancies on the vetting certificate that we wondered if he had even seen the horse. He also claimed he had inadvertantly distroyed the blood samples when asked to get them analysed as the timing would have tied in with drugs wearing off. Fortunately after a long drawn out court case the buyer won and was awarded damages but they were in the fortunate position of being able to afford the legal fees. Good luck, I hope you find a way forward.

 

[MyBoyChe]

Im so sorry to read this but at least you have an answer as to why it happened and know it wasnt a temper tantrum. I would have thought you would have some recourse against the dealer, surely this condition cant have just happened as soon as the mare crossed the Irish Sea, there must have been some indications beforehand? Difficult to know what to do though, if I understand your situation you are mostly dealing with your horse at home and alone except for a non horsey partner so this may be a risk too far x

 

[ester]

I think your main difficulty is going to be that neither the vetting vet, or your own vet picked it up.

 

[catembi]

Yeah, that's the thing, Ester. So I'm not sure whether to leave it. And the dr said not to decide anything til I'm not concussed!

 

[Red-1]

I don't know if it would help you decide weather to take action against the dealer or not, but the video that she had as a sales video did show a shiver when she picked up the left hind leg (when she went to put it down). I am not entirely convinced that it is just a shiver, as I also thought she was stiff on the left hind, when schooled flat work on the left rein (unlevel).

If the shiver is evident on the sales video, it is obviously a pre-existing condition whatever the cause, which would strengthen your case.

I would be interested to know how it was not evident to your UK vet and the farrier/trimmer though. Could it be a muscle spasm as opposed to a true neurological shiver? I guess it wold take an equine vet to tell. Maybe have the bloods from the pre sale vetting analysed? If that showed anything again it would strengthen your position.

Having said all that, I think it would cause you an awful lot of stress to take legal action, but don't know what else to offer. I am sorry that you are in this position.

 

[ihatework]

Yeah, that's the thing, Ester. So I'm not sure whether to leave it. And the dr said not to decide anything til I'm not concussed!

I’d be inclined to run the bloods from the vetting.
It’s the gamble you take unfortunately and I think if there were warning signs you’ve left it too late to send back unless you get something conclusive on the blood results.

That said, a shiver won’t necessarily mean the horse won’t do the job you need

 

[Winifleur]

I'm so sorry this has happened to you, I can't add anything helpful though

 

[JFTDWS]

That's appalling luck - I'm so sorry. Try not to worry about it until you're feeling better (though I appreciate that's easier said than done).

 

[maya2008]

Shiver-like action at 4:36 on sales video.

 

[kinnygirl1]

Really sorry... This is terrible luck. Offering a hug. ((()))

 

[spookypony]

Shiver, or maybe stringhalt? Knew a horse with that that did just fine, as long as you stayed careful around his back end and gave him time to sort himself out. I'm so sorry you've run into this problem, but would suggest you show what evidence you have to a variety of people (vets, hoof people, instructors...) to get a better picture, before deciding on a course of action.

 

[Goldenstar]

Crap crap crap I would get straight on to the dealer ( or get someone to do it for you given your accident) and say the horse is a shiverer and you wish to return her. Whoever rings the dealer needs to be polite and calm but be prepared to get across I hope you do right thing because I don’t want to have to make the effort to tell this story on the forum /Facebook whatever put her on a lorry and send her back .
Poor poor mare.

 

[catembi]

How do you mean GS, you hope I do the right thing because YOU don’t want to tell the story, etc etc?

 

[southerncomfort]

Have you had a full diagnosis from your vet? It could be dealer is reluctant to do anything without an official diagnosis?

This. A behaviourist is not qualified to give a medical diagnosis and you won't be able to pursue the dealer with this.

Your starting point has to be a full check up from the vet. Once you know what you're dealing with then you can make a decision about whether to take it further.

ETA: if shivering can be seen on the vid might be worth sending vid to your vet...?

Personally I wouldn't approach the dealer until you have a full medical diagnosis and as much evidence as you can muster so you've got a really strong case.

 

[ycbm]

I have read that vitamin E is extremely important to shiverers, and the vitamin E is dying out of the grass now the sun has gone and the days are getting shorter. It may be that she needs vitamin E. If so, make it the natural stuff or twice the quantity of synthetic, which has only half the active chemical in it. It start with a PSSM level, 10,000 iu a day, and see what happens. (Also posted on the shivers thread).

It's possible that she did not shiver at the time of the vetting, when the vitamin E levels were sky high because of the good grass conditions, which have now faded. I've increased my PSSM horse by fifty percent in the last month.

'The right thing' it whatever is whatever is right for both you and this horse. So sorry your exciting adventure turned out this way.