Update on the rat issue

[Gloi]

I worry about the dogs and cats eating rats killed by warfarin

 

[GSD Woman]

We have a newer poison for rodents in the US. when the dogs vomit it it releases a toxic gas. We've been warned in the veterinary community to wear protective breathing gear if we have to induce vomiting.

 

[ycbm]

I worry about the dogs and cats eating rats killed by warfarin

I wondered about that and looked it up and found this on a vet site.

" This can occur but is rare because a cat would need to eat many rodents that died from the poison."

I'm trying to find out if the warfarin is still active after it has blocked the production of vitamin K or if it changes chemically in doing the blocking but I'm not getting very far with that. It would make a big difference to how dangerous a rodent carcass killed with warfarin is.

Whatever, I'm not planning to eat my husband if he has a warfarin overdose ?

 

[Mule]

I wondered about that and looked it up and found this on a vet site.

" This can occur but is rare because a cat would need to eat many rodents that died from the poison."

I'm trying to find out if the warfarin is still active after it has blocked the production of vitamin K or if it changes chemically in doing the blocking but I'm not getting very far with that. It would make a big difference to how dangerous a rodent carcass killed with warfarin is.

Whatever, I'm not planning to eat my husband if he has a warfarin overdose ?

?

 

[Mule]

While bleeding out (warfarin) may seem a better rat death, and I'm not sure about that having seen animals bleeding from all orifices from rat poison, than the 12-24 hours it takes for a rat to die from the peanut/bicarb death I'm not going to risk poisoning my dogs or the wildlife near me. Just the other day I saw a bald eagle flying about 2 miles from my place. I know there are hawks, owls, raccoons and at least 1 fox. With a good pen so far I've been OK from those but the rats got in and they had to go.

I've never seen the results of a warfarin induced death but from what I've read I knew it was unpleasant.

 

[Mule]

I wondered about that and looked it up and found this on a vet site.

" This can occur but is rare because a cat would need to eat many rodents that died from the poison."

I'm trying to find out if the warfarin is still active after it has blocked the production of vitamin K or if it changes chemically in doing the blocking but I'm not getting very far with that. It would make a big difference to how dangerous a rodent carcass killed with warfarin is.

Whatever, I'm not planning to eat my husband if he has a warfarin overdose ?

That's good to hear. I was nervous about my neighbour's cat eating the rodents I'm currently poisoning.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Is there a humane way to deter rats? A strong smell or something?

The scent of ferrets puts them off

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Surely it has to be a better death to die of thin blood (warfarin) than to die of a blocked digestive system (bicarb/polyfilla)?
.

But they don't die of thin blood, they die of internal organs bleeding out. I can't see that it is any better tbh. Having said that, I don't want rats around, so if they become noticeable, I do something about it. We don't have cats atm but we have had some fabulous ratters over the years. Much better than the JRTs, anyway.

 

[Sandstone1]

Maybe I need a pet ferret

 

[TPO]

The scent of ferrets puts them off

Not always...

We were overrun with rats last year (my fault, left bags of feed on my hay bales after a delivery...).

Kept the ferrets in the barn (in their hutch) and it didn't deter the rats at all. They climbed onto the hutch!! Let the ferrets run through the rat runs in and out of the big shed, around the stables, under the wee wooden shed and through the stone wall where they seemed to be nesting. Not an iota of a difference. Didn't flush anything or deter anything coming back each night.

Based on the size of the rats we caught they were more than a match for the ferrets. At best if the ferrets had met one they would have ended up seriously injured and at worst dead.

My dad is a very experienced killer of things (ferreting and hawking as well as general farmering life) and that was him saying it not me being soft because I tamed the ferrets!

The best thing to help reduce numbers was a tiny wee weasel. It went in the stone wall and wiped out all the nests. Could have done with more visits from it!

Mum has chickens, there's a burn on the other side of thr gate and the neighbours breed chickens, ducks and geese. Rat heaven!!

Touch wood nothing so far this year but snap traps are set at last years hot spots ?

 

[ycbm]

But they don't die of thin blood, they die of internal organs bleeding out. I can't see that it is any better tbh. Having said that, I don't want rats around, so if they become noticeable, I do something about it. We don't have cats atm but we have had some fabulous ratters over the years. Much better than the JRTs, anyway.

That depends if its painful or not, doesn't it? (I don't know.) People may find the sight of blood upsetting but it isn't painful just to bleed. I can't think of a much worse lingering death than having your gut cemented up with bicarb or polyfilla. I have to agree with Palo here, that we do a lot worse in the name of pest control than hunting foxes with hounds.
.

 

[GSD Woman]

Honestly, if you aren't the one dealing with a rat infestation in a place where there are no terrier men and you have the fear of hurting another animal you don't know how it is. If the rats died in some unpleasant way so be it. They're gone and to me that's what matters. If this seems cold and callous you are free to come to the states and get rid of my rat problem next time.

 

[ycbm]

Honestly, if you aren't the one dealing with a rat infestation in a place where there are no terrier men and you have the fear of hurting another animal you don't know how it is. If the rats died in some unpleasant way so be it. They're gone and to me that's what matters. If this seems cold and callous you are free to come to the states and get rid of my rat problem next time.

I do know how it is, I have a stable yard and I keep cats. I have friends with chickens, cats and dogs. I would have rats if I didn't have cats. I used to poison moles with the phosgene you talk about upthread I have to suck up the criticism I get for the harm my cats do to birds because I'm not prepared to stop keeping cats. If you are sensitive about, or have a problem with, the method of killing rats that you chose being discussed on the forum, GSD, you might need to avoid writing about it.

Personally, I'm intrigued that things which would be a prosecutable offence in the UK if done to an animal not defined as a pest is both legal and happily carried out by people who would raise a stink about animal cruelty in another context (I'm not talking about you here). We have some very dual standards in animal management in this country.
.

 

[palo1]

I do know how it is, I have a stable yard and I keep cats. I have friends with chickens, cats and dogs. I would have rats if I didn't have cats. I used to poison moles with the phosgene you talk about upthread I have to suck up the criticism I get for the harm my cats do to birds because I'm not prepared to stop keeping cats. If you are sensitive about, or have a problem with, the method of killing rats that you chose being discussed on the forum, GSD, you might need to avoid writing about it.

Personally, I'm intrigued that things which would be a prosecutable offence in the UK if done to an animal not defined as a pest is both legal and happily carried out by people who would raise a stink about animal cruelty in another context (I'm not talking about you here). We have some very dual standards in animal management in this country.
.

Quite so. A weasel is perfect as an entirely natural pest control for rats and rats are well equipped and evolved to cope with that kind of threat and predation. As they are equipped to cope with cats or terriers which to my mind are by far the most humane way to deal with rats. I won't keep cats because of the threat to songbirds though.

IF we had a really healthy environment, that included less use of pesticide etc weasels and their quite wonderful relatives would be more plentiful (though not sufficient on their own and certainly not in a city) to help us cope with rats. Where that kind of natural control is not sufficient or available we have to work with the rat as it were, to understand what makes them comfortable or not. They hate disturbance and hate their family groups being disrupted and that is often why a dog killing a rat or two is enough to convince the others to move somewhere safer.

We sort of live with our rats though I regularly disturb them in any way I can and my terrier, though he cannot get into the woodpile, does frighten the life out of any rat that meets him and he will kill a rat very swiftly. As I have watched a rat drag a baby rabbit into the woodpile (I could not reach the bunny) and then heard's it's not instant death, this is a way of death I am at peace with. Rats have also taken my young bantams and I am certain that that was a grim death for a defenceless bird. In my system rat meets predator and either lives to fight another day or is quickly dispatched. That seems fair and works with nature to my view.

Last year rats gnawed the strings of 100 small bales of my straw, leaving the most awful mess which the chooks then capitalised on - resulting in far more wastage than I was comfortable with. I will shoot rats at night with a night sight if they get too numerous though ordinarily the presence of other predators, including my dog is enough to keep rat numbers manageable and their behaviour relatively 'discreet' lol. I actually love watching rats and their intelligence and adaptability are quite extraordinary. Brilliant pets and admirable animals in so many ways, they deserve the most humane death possible. Well, everything does in fact but the way we treat rats and other 'inconvenient' life at the same time as calling ourselves animal lovers is quite outrageous to me.

 

[palo1]

Not always...

We were overrun with rats last year (my fault, left bags of feed on my hay bales after a delivery...).

Kept the ferrets in the barn (in their hutch) and it didn't deter the rats at all. They climbed onto the hutch!! Let the ferrets run through the rat runs in and out of the big shed, around the stables, under the wee wooden shed and through the stone wall where they seemed to be nesting. Not an iota of a difference. Didn't flush anything or deter anything coming back each night.

Based on the size of the rats we caught they were more than a match for the ferrets. At best if the ferrets had met one they would have ended up seriously injured and at worst dead.

My dad is a very experienced killer of things (ferreting and hawking as well as general farmering life) and that was him saying it not me being soft because I tamed the ferrets!

The best thing to help reduce numbers was a tiny wee weasel. It went in the stone wall and wiped out all the nests. Could have done with more visits from it!

Mum has chickens, there's a burn on the other side of thr gate and the neighbours breed chickens, ducks and geese. Rat heaven!!

Touch wood nothing so far this year but snap traps are set at last years hot spots ?

I would never want to ask a ferret to take on rats tbh. You do need something considerably bigger and very well equipped in a different way to a ferret for rats. Ferrets are more of a straight predator of rabbits etc than a true 'fighter' in the way that a dog or big enough cat will be. A rat is a formidable opponent and they absolutely will take on a predator if they have to.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would never want to ask a ferret to take on rats tbh. You do need something considerably bigger and very well equipped in a different way to a ferret for rats. Ferrets are more of a straight predator of rabbits etc than a true 'fighter' in the way that a dog or big enough cat will be. A rat is a formidable opponent and they absolutely will take on a predator if they have to.

I have found that a man, or 2, with ferrets and terriers have worked well to get rid of rats and the ferret smell left behind seemed to keep them away for a good while. The best way to get rid of them was to stop keeping poultry. And yes it was a much better way to die than poisoning.

 

[palo1]

I have found that a man, or 2, with ferrets and terriers have worked well to get rid of rats and the ferret smell left behind seemed to keep them away for a good while. The best way to get rid of them was to stop keeping poultry

Yes, ferrets with dogs works well so I understand (never tried it but I have heard this). I should think the combination of ferrets in the burrows (horrifying for a rat family!!), the terrier and residual smell of ferret would be enough to send any self respecting rat families packing for quite some time.

 

[TPO]

I would never want to ask a ferret to take on rats tbh. You do need something considerably bigger and very well equipped in a different way to a ferret for rats. Ferrets are more of a straight predator of rabbits etc than a true 'fighter' in the way that a dog or big enough cat will be. A rat is a formidable opponent and they absolutely will take on a predator if they have to.

Agree

Probably didn't make it clear in my post but ferrets were just run through and around those spaces to leave their scent as a deterrent. If any rats were flushed dad was waiting with a gun. They were NOT put down to fight the rats. Far too precious to me for that and wouldn't risk Sally- Anne McKecknie* or Betty McKecknie* getting hurt.

* dad named them and full names must be used ?

 

[canteron]

We have been shooting rats - not fun but necessary. My fear is that if we see enough rats ? to shoot, there must be many many more???? We got 3 yesterday.

 

[cally23]

Our cat will kill just about anything, she will kill young rats but will not eat them, she eats everything else including, Squirells and rabbits.
Our ingenious idea, which worked, was a bucket of water, a bamboo stick placed across the centre and through the handles. smothered in PB. The rats would climb onto the stick and drown in the water. We were getting about 8 a night until we got rid completley. We havent seen any more for months.

 

[Laurac13]

Our cat will kill just about anything, she will kill young rats but will not eat them, she eats everything else including, Squirells and rabbits.
Our ingenious idea, which worked, was a bucket of water, a bamboo stick placed across the centre and through the handles. smothered in PB. The rats would climb onto the stick and drown in the water. We were getting about 8 a night until we got rid completley. We havent seen any more for months.

Years ago at a livery yard I was at I arrived to feed all the horses early and found about 6 rats drowned in a fellow liveries sugar beet bucket she had forgot to add the beet and the rats jumped in expecting a feast ?

 

[GSD Woman]

cally23, a coworker had suggested the bucket way. He said it is very effective. Also, shooting with a 22 and the use of night vision goggles. That would have been mu preferred method but I can't legally fire a gun anywhere near my house. The other dwellings are too close.

 

[ycbm]

wouldn't risk Sally- Anne McKecknie* or Betty McKecknie*

?

 

[Mule]

Quite so. A weasel is perfect as an entirely natural pest control for rats and rats are well equipped and evolved to cope with that kind of threat and predation. As they are equipped to cope with cats or terriers which to my mind are by far the most humane way to deal with rats. I won't keep cats because of the threat to songbirds though.

IF we had a really healthy environment, that included less use of pesticide etc weasels and their quite wonderful relatives would be more plentiful (though not sufficient on their own and certainly not in a city) to help us cope with rats. Where that kind of natural control is not sufficient or available we have to work with the rat as it were, to understand what makes them comfortable or not. They hate disturbance and hate their family groups being disrupted and that is often why a dog killing a rat or two is enough to convince the others to move somewhere safer.

We sort of live with our rats though I regularly disturb them in any way I can and my terrier, though he cannot get into the woodpile, does frighten the life out of any rat that meets him and he will kill a rat very swiftly. As I have watched a rat drag a baby rabbit into the woodpile (I could not reach the bunny) and then heard's it's not instant death, this is a way of death I am at peace with. Rats have also taken my young bantams and I am certain that that was a grim death for a defenceless bird. In my system rat meets predator and either lives to fight another day or is quickly dispatched. That seems fair and works with nature to my view.

Last year rats gnawed the strings of 100 small bales of my straw, leaving the most awful mess which the chooks then capitalised on - resulting in far more wastage than I was comfortable with. I will shoot rats at night with a night sight if they get too numerous though ordinarily the presence of other predators, including my dog is enough to keep rat numbers manageable and their behaviour relatively 'discreet' lol. I actually love watching rats and their intelligence and adaptability are quite extraordinary. Brilliant pets and admirable animals in so many ways, they deserve the most humane death possible. Well, everything does in fact but the way we treat rats and other 'inconvenient' life at the same time as calling ourselves animal lovers is quite outrageous to me.

I like the sound of a weasel, hopefully one might visit me. I've a few rats to keep it busy with atm.

 

[Mule]

Our cat will kill just about anything, she will kill young rats but will not eat them, she eats everything else including, Squirells and rabbits.
Our ingenious idea, which worked, was a bucket of water, a bamboo stick placed across the centre and through the handles. smothered in PB. The rats would climb onto the stick and drown in the water. We were getting about 8 a night until we got rid completley. We havent seen any more for months.

I like that idea. I'd do it if it were just me but I don't fancy my liveries coming across a bucket of drowned rats

 

[palo1]

I found 3 young rats drowned in a full garden pot (one without holes) - I was a bit horrified thinking about the poor things swimming around unable to get out at the same time as knowing I certainly don't need 3 more rats here. I have heard they get wise to the drowning bucket method after a short while as my OH has used this but says once you have caught a couple this way they stop coming near the bucket - clever things!!

 

[palo1]

I like the sound of a weasel, hopefully one might visit me. I've a few rats to keep it busy with atm.

Yes, they are astonishingly fierce things and we should do all we can to encourage them to visit rats rather than ground nesting birds. I am not sure there is a method for attracting weasels but a nice stone wall and plenty of cover is what they like!

 

[palo1]

That depends if its painful or not, doesn't it? (I don't know.) People may find the sight of blood upsetting but it isn't painful just to bleed. I can't think of a much worse lingering death than having your gut cemented up with bicarb or polyfilla. I have to agree with Palo here, that we do a lot worse in the name of pest control than hunting foxes with hounds.
.

And on that theme I was horrified to read this today about the RSPB's manual on electric fencing: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/12/electric-fences-cruel-threat-beloved-wildlife/

I know the writer may not be everyone's cup of tea and I am not actually a Telegraph reader (it was brought to my attention) but what he has written is easily verified and pretty horrifying .

 

[Peglo]

Years ago at a livery yard I was at I arrived to feed all the horses early and found about 6 rats drowned in a fellow liveries sugar beet bucket she had forgot to add the beet and the rats jumped in expecting a feast ?

my horses used to stay in a an old stone building which was easy access for rodents. I went to clean out my TB’s water bucket, pulled the hay off the top and found a rat floating in the water… after I had stuck me bucket brush in it! I ? myself! Happened 3 more times. I fear she was trying to drown them by putting the hay on top. Felt terrible they were in her bucket though.
A few years later I found a few mice in it so tied a bit of string to the handle so they could climb out and never found another in there. Maybe no more went in or else the string worked but I’m not sad we have no rodents in the new stables. (As cute as the mice were)

 

[Art Nouveau]

And on that theme I was horrified to read this today about the RSPB's manual on electric fencing: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/12/electric-fences-cruel-threat-beloved-wildlife/

I know the writer may not be everyone's cup of tea and I am not actually a Telegraph reader (it was brought to my attention) but what he has written is easily verified and pretty horrifying .

I can't read the article as it's behind a paywall so I can only read the first few lines. 6000V sounds fairly normal for an electric fence though? I wouldn't expect any animal to be 'squealing in agony' touching that. I have no issues with the idea of an electric fence to keep animals in or out of an area