Using your leg on a sharp horse

[LeannePip]

^^^ exactly.

Yep!

I really don't think you guys are getting this, I understand the problem and i know what i need to achieve to move forward. Shes sharp and not fully accepting my leg 100% of the time, which is what i am trying to address. I don't need you to re-iterate this to me when i present my problem, I may not be as experienced as either of you, but this doesn't mean i don't have the first clue about what is going on just because i have asked for some help.

''Advice'' such as 'just tell them to get on with it' and 'you need to teach them' is not even remotely helpful when someone is asking for advise on how to do that!

You are both obviously extremely experienced and accomplished riders who's opinion and input I would value hugely were you to afford me a few minutes of your time to give some input on exercises I can use to over come this hurdle. Unfortunately none of your posts have been atall helpful or constructive and seem only intent on patronising and reiterating the exact things i have asked for help with. NMT, I often read yours and your sisters posts about your boys and you explain in there the exercises you run through with your horses, why you do this and what you hope this accomplishes. Knowing both your horses are less than easy i'd hoped when i saw you had responded that you'd have some valuable input, but this obviously wasn't the case.

I've now booked a lesson for Friday, all i can hope is my instructor has some thing more useful to say than 'tell her to get on with it'!

 

[Cortez]

No, YOU don't seem to be getting the point that both myself and others who have dealt with this exact same problem are making: there really isn't a specific exercise, it's all just normal, regular training, refined down to the level that each individual horse can deal with. So if you have a super sensitive, reactive horse, you just keep putting on the leg, nicely, politely and repeatedly, until that horse "gets" that you are not going to do something horrible to it and learns to settle and listen rather than run away. If/when the horse does fly away from the leg you just stop the horse (using seat, reins, etc.) and repeat again and again until it "just gets on with it" and doesn't overreact. You seem to be getting annoyed that we haven't got any fancy techniques or gadgets that will make an instant cure, but really and truly it's just about doing it. Sorry.

 

[Mince Pie]

I think the OP was looking more for exercises she could do rather than fancy techniques and gadgets

 

[LeannePip]

Aside from the ridden issues, is there anything in her management that you could tweak to calm her down to help matters in the short term? Feed (less of), turnout (more of) etc.

Shes managed fairly simply; she has adlib dry haylege (not rich atall so basically not dusty hay!) and 2 feeds a day of calmer chaff/ fast fibre. She gets turnout every day at the moment from 7am-2pm/3pm unfortunatly I cannot change this as on a big yard where mares have to come in first as otherwise the geldings get a bit randy walking through their field.

I have trained many, many horses which were frightened of leg pressure; none ended up tense or unhappy. What made them tense, unhappy and frightened of the leg in the first place was poor training, poor/uneducated riding and timid handling. Leg aids have to be taught to every horse. If you don't want to hear how to solve the problem, don't ask.

I want to hear how to solve the problem, that's why i asked, but you haven't actually given any constructive ways of how to do this! Tell him/ her to get on with it is a cryptic answer at best; 'Ruby, Cortez of HHO Fame has told me that when I put my leg on and you have to deal with it, okay? There wont be any of this running away with your ears up my nose and you mustn't explode into a fit of panic when i put my leg on ok? Thanks' acctually your right, that should probably do it - problem solved!

 

[Pigeon]

Just drape your legs and she'll get used to them eventually! You can use leg aids much more subtly this way! With a sharp horse you need to use more leg, with a lazy horse less. I think that's a Carl-ism too

 

[Cortez]

I want to hear how to solve the problem, that's why i asked, but you haven't actually given any constructive ways of how to do this! Tell him/ her to get on with it is a cryptic answer at best; 'Ruby, Cortez of HHO Fame has told me that when I put my leg on and you have to deal with it, okay? There wont be any of this running away with your ears up my nose and you mustn't explode into a fit of panic when i put my leg on ok? Thanks' acctually your right, that should probably do it - problem solved!

Actually, I have given a fairly specific overview of how to do it ^^ up there (#32), and if you do explain to your horse (with the correct aids, repeated consistently) she/he will get it in time. But if you go out expecting a instant cure, or a "special" exercise that will change everything, then you will not have success. It is all about just riding your horse with consistent aids, repeated until the message is listened to. If the horse overreacts then you must correct it. It really is fairly simple*.

*Note: simple may not equal easy.........

 

[LeannePip]

No, YOU don't seem to be getting the point that both myself and others who have dealt with this exact same problem are making: there really isn't a specific exercise, it's all just normal, regular training, refined down to the level that each individual horse can deal with. So if you have a super sensitive, reactive horse, you just keep putting on the leg, nicely, politely and repeatedly, until that horse "gets" that you are not going to do something horrible to it and learns to settle and listen rather than run away. If/when the horse does fly away from the leg you just stop the horse (using seat, reins, etc.) and repeat again and again until it "just gets on with it" and doesn't overreact. You seem to be getting annoyed that we haven't got any fancy techniques or gadgets that will make an instant cure, but really and truly it's just about doing it. Sorry.

Cortez, i am not an imbecile who has completely over horsed them selves and doesn't have the first clue, i dont want an instant fix or gadgets galore, just affirmation that what i explained my routine was at the moment is along the right lines of getting over this and if there was anything else i could do to work on this. What you have now explained is far more useful than any of your previous posts, i'm not annoyed that you couldnt give me a miracle answer, far from it, more that an experiences poster who is in a position to help, felt it far more entertaining to beat about the bush.

 

[Cortez]

Cortez, i am not an imbecile who has completely over horsed them selves and doesn't have the first clue, i dont want an instant fix or gadgets galore, just affirmation that what i explained my routine was at the moment is along the right lines of getting over this and if there was anything else i could do to work on this. What you have now explained is far more useful than any of your previous posts, i'm not annoyed that you couldnt give me a miracle answer, far from it, more that an experiences poster who is in a position to help, felt it far more entertaining to beat about the bush.

I'm not beating anyone's bush; I don't in the least think you are an imbecile, but in saying "just get on with it" I really think I have encapsulated what it takes to train an overreactive horse - just keep riding it (obviously in a sensitive, but not timid, way) until it learns to accept the aids. That's it. S'worked for any flighty, badly started, nervous or frightened horse I've ever had to train, and that's the advice I would give anyone who came to me with a problem of this sort. Obviously if the rider was not capable of dealing with the horse's reactions, or not able to give consistent, measured aids*, then that is not the rider for that horse and a more experienced trainer should be employed.

* This does not mean you.

 

[crabbymare]

without seeing you or the horse if you are looking for things to do try walking a 10m circle and gently putting your legs on. then using your seat to turn circle the other way without changing the pressure from your legs. when the horse is relaxed at a walk and accepts the leg move into trot on a 12-15m circle so that all the time the bend of the circle helps you keep the horse steady. when you do upward transitions do them coming towards the wall or fence or corner into the short side so the horse is not going into a straight line and if the horse thinks rush just turn a slightly smaller circle without taking the leg off

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm nowhere near as experienced as some other posters, but a really good exercise that helped me and my ultra sensitive lad was riding a square in walk. Walk forwards, then turn on the forehand 90 degrees, walk forward about 10m and repeat several times. Then leg yielding and spiralling in and out on a circle, always with my legs draped quietly round the horse.

This was taught to me by Patsy Day of Stubley Hollow Farm in Derbyshire, who is a genius at bringing on young horses without use of quick fixes or gadgets.

 

[Fellewell]

A holding/supporting leg and a driving leg are two totally different things. Horse has to learn the difference and the fact that the leg remains there regardless

She's an angel to lunge you say? Have you tried riding her without the saddle? I only say this because of the mild weather and your lively geldings. If she's a bit hormonal this may have a bearing (ovaries and sensitivity etc)

Failing that, best I have to offer is lunge, watch for hollowed back just in case, and make sure she relates transitions to voice commands. Translate to ridden work and cuddle her with your leg. There you go, more teaching you to suck eggs;-)

 

[EQUIDAE]

I have trained many, many horses which were frightened of leg pressure; none ended up tense or unhappy. What made them tense, unhappy and frightened of the leg in the first place was poor training, poor/uneducated riding and timid handling. Leg aids have to be taught to every horse. If you don't want to hear how to solve the problem, don't ask.

I didn't ask...

OP - to get my sensitive boy accepting of the leg I did lots of close contact inhand work using first a flat hand and then a fist (I don't mean punching here) to simulate the leg pressure. Doing things like turn on the forhand/haunches, leg yeild etc in hand with the hand to apply pressure was the way I taught him what the aids meant. I then translated this to at distance long lining with the lines through dangling stirrups and getting him used to the stirrups flapping about on his sides a bit. Once he was totally settled with stuff around his sides from the ground it was just a case of hopping on board - totally different reaction the second time round and now he goes sweetly.

This was his reaction to being told he just had to accept the leg - they're right, you can't tell an entire

Once we had sussed the pressure thing he started to work in a more relaxed manner.

Of course, he still has a way to go but he feels a totally different horse to the one I first sat on.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's really difficult to advise anyone without seeing the horse in action but my favourite approach with horses than run away from the leg is to stop them ,when they surge forward I just stop no messing very matter of fact then I return to want I was doing .
I try to never compromise by using leg less .
But the real answer is the training and teaching the horse the nature of impulsion improving the balance and the horse learning the submission or as it's a nicer way to express it the horse learning to give it's self up freely to be worked .
I like this sort of horse , I find them easy to work with .

 

[j1ffy]

I know this is a very old (and occasionally tetchy!) thread but it's just really helped me to feel more confident in how I'm approaching Chilli's schooling. He can be very over-reactive to the leg, particularly now he's stronger and thinks he knows it all, and my trainer is helping me to keep the leg on and work through it - funnily enough the 'they just need to get on with it' post was just what I needed! Leg on when hacking (which isn't usually an issue so a good opportunity to reinforce the school work), schooling, and no compromise, he just has to accept it.

We'll get there, yesterday's session was already a huge improvement on his hysteria of two weeks ago.

 

[oldie48]

I don't remember this post but was interested to read through it. I frequently watch a very experienced rider who is often given horses to bring on because they are hot and over reactive. He is the master of "just get on with it". He sits quietly on the horse, legs draped softly round the horse while horse has his "paddy". He doesn't add any energy to the horse's reaction just sits quietly there but his legs stay where he wants them. He is a very balanced rider but we are talking big strong athletic dressage horses, once they settle he carries on the work. Thinking rationally about this, if legs "come off" when horses reacts, the reaction is being rewarded and this is not what the rider wants.

 

[j1ffy]

I don't remember this post but was interested to read through it. I frequently watch a very experienced rider who is often given horses to bring on because they are hot and over reactive. He is the master of "just get on with it". He sits quietly on the horse, legs draped softly round the horse while horse has his "paddy". He doesn't add any energy to the horse's reaction just sits quietly there but his legs stay where he wants them. He is a very balanced rider but we are talking big strong athletic dressage horses, once they settle he carries on the work. Thinking rationally about this, if legs "come off" when horses reacts, the reaction is being rewarded and this is not what the rider wants.

The calm, consistent approach seems to be the way to go (with all things horse-related tbh!). We've been teaching a baby travers in walk to allow me to get the leg outside on - to begin with it created 'angry' canter strides and head-tossing but now he settles and gets on with it. I never feel unsafe on him and he does make me laugh with his behaviour so I'm quite comfortable just sitting as quietly as I can and waiting for the right reaction!

 

[LEC]

I find lunging pretty helpful before getting on with young horses. I want the ridden experience to be a good one and one of us wondering if we will die and the other feeling rather full of themselves will not help with the long term journey.
I find lunging (all mine were good on lunge) just helps remove the tickle from the feet and any ultra sensitivity. Having been decked from one a lot (I am very sticky as well!) I am now much more pragmatic in my approach. It also means if you go to a show you have a system they understand - lunge to remove the tickle/gawping and then rider on. I have had days where I have lunged, sat on, got off, lunged some more and got on. I want to be able to ride them consistently and I can’t do that if holding a neck strap and backing off them because they might explode. It teaches them bad habits and they realise then very quickly how to get you to back off.

My other top tip is raised trot poles. Horses cannot explode over them. They can try but they only do it once. I will keep riding and riding over them until the tension has been released. They make the back soft, drop the head and they are quite hard work. One horse had them permanently set up on a serpentine ready for them being sharp. With 4yo sometimes going into canter can be worse with explosions as not established and wobbly so the raised trot poles are a good half way step to making them work hard if canter is tricky.

If they are feeling sharp I never do transitions. I just ride forwards. Depending on the stage they are at that will be trot or canter. They are feeling well and cheery so I prefer to get the energy out in a positive way. I just wait for that intake of breath and the relaxation to come then can think about things like transitions. I also tend to add a lot of bending exercises and love Swedish castles for energetic horses. They settle the mind and work the body.

For me I always try to remember with sport horses that they have bred to be reactive and sometimes those reactions are when you don’t want them so you play it safe and try to have the reactions in a safe and manageable way.

 

[nikkimariet]

Just put your leg on and tell her/him to get on with it.

Yep. If Rooni reacts to my leg being on it stays on until he gets over it.

Lateral work is your friend. Don’t force the walk or even trot to start if they’re too buzzy about it. Accept the forwards and work with it.

 

[RachelFerd]

I find lunging pretty helpful before getting on with young horses. I want the ridden experience to be a good one and one of us wondering if we will die and the other feeling rather full of themselves will not help with the long term journey.
I find lunging (all mine were good on lunge) just helps remove the tickle from the feet and any ultra sensitivity. Having been decked from one a lot (I am very sticky as well!) I am now much more pragmatic in my approach. It also means if you go to a show you have a system they understand - lunge to remove the tickle/gawping and then rider on. I have had days where I have lunged, sat on, got off, lunged some more and got on. I want to be able to ride them consistently and I can’t do that if holding a neck strap and backing off them because they might explode. It teaches them bad habits and they realise then very quickly how to get you to back off.

My other top tip is raised trot poles. Horses cannot explode over them. They can try but they only do it once. I will keep riding and riding over them until the tension has been released. They make the back soft, drop the head and they are quite hard work. One horse had them permanently set up on a serpentine ready for them being sharp. With 4yo sometimes going into canter can be worse with explosions as not established and wobbly so the raised trot poles are a good half way step to making them work hard if canter is tricky.

If they are feeling sharp I never do transitions. I just ride forwards. Depending on the stage they are at that will be trot or canter. They are feeling well and cheery so I prefer to get the energy out in a positive way. I just wait for that intake of breath and the relaxation to come then can think about things like transitions. I also tend to add a lot of bending exercises and love Swedish castles for energetic horses. They settle the mind and work the body.

For me I always try to remember with sport horses that they have bred to be reactive and sometimes those reactions are when you don’t want them so you play it safe and try to have the reactions in a safe and manageable way.

What are swedish castles?!

 

[Gamebird]

I'm not quite sure how much help my advice will be on a 6 year post, but I would never start off a session on a fresh youngster by spending 10 minutes doing walk/halt transitions. I let them go forwards from the get-go - usually in trot, but occasionally in canter if that's all they've got for me, keeping them busy but not overloaded with changes of direction and bend, then gradually take the pace down. I would work on the walk/halt stuff at the end once they're chilled out, focussing and more accepting of the leg.

 

[LEC]

What are swedish castles?!

I didn't even realise this was a zombie thread as was on phone yesterday!

They are circles in every corner and at B and E. So circle, ride round to next bit of arena, circle.

 

[j1ffy]

I didn't even realise this was a zombie thread as was on phone yesterday!

They are circles in every corner and at B and E. So circle, ride round to next bit of arena, circle.

Yep - I revived it yesterday as it's helped me with my youngster (post 44!). Hopefully OP's horse is a nice calm 10yo now

In response to your post, lunging doesn't make a difference to my 4yo. He's very calm on the lunge and loose schooling but seems to get a shot of adrenaline when ridden in the school. As per post 46, he's far from dangerous, just sharp to the leg but getting better. I'd not heard of Swedish castles (!) but we do plenty of that as well, anything to get his brain and body engaged while preventing me from restricting him too much.

Walk / halt / walk winds him up but spending plenty of time in walk, picking him up and lengthening again, helps. Then repeat in trot with relaxed walk breaks when he does it well. No doubt I'll need some new tactics in a week or two

 

[paddi22]

hot ones I always have a hugging, holding leg all the time. I don't care if they are too forward at the start, they ned to desensitise to the leg. I usually just do this on hacks and when in the school, the sessions are just based on the horse accepting the leg is there. when doing transitions, I don't care how messy they are or how long they take, the leg stays on and they get rewarded when they do it finally. I kind of think people rush too much to do other stuff without the horse understanding the basic acceptance of leg.

 

[shortstuff99]

As someone with probably the hottest Spanish potato on the planet I have had to work on this a lot! The biggest mistake is trying to slow the horse, that just stresses her out more, also lots of transitions wind her up.

I instead have to have the leg on but through moves that let me alter the position and strength of it. I do lots of shoulder in, leg yield, spiral circles, travers, moves that allow the application of the leg but naturally deters speed. Once she is truly listening to the leg she slows naturally.

 

[Apercrumbie]

I had this problem with one of mine - I found the key was lots of changes in direction to avoid her just tanking off when my legs touched her sides. Serpentines were best for her but different size/shape of circles, shoulder in, spiralling circles etc all worked well. She would always start off super buzzy and avoiding the leg, but usually after 20min or so she would relax and accept the aids really well.

Also agreed on the advice not to try to slow them down too much as then they just coil up and get explosive. She was allowed to warm up with a good forward walk, trot and canter before I asked too much of her.

 

[palo1]

Agreed with the softly draped leg. A really good couple of things I was taught was to imagine that your legs were to the horse as a hand is to a toddler; you need contact that is 'safe' but neither gripping/squeezing or jabbing (of course) nor so sloppy that you lose contact. The same can be said of the hands also. I have found with sharp horses that work in hand and using the hands where the legs sit in all sorts of scenarious; grooming and in hand work can help to desensitise. For me that acceptance of the leg is very, very early work; I don't especially want to get on a horse that is going to panic about that and it can be easy to end up pandering to them a bit then too so that you start wondering 'When can I start allowing the leg to just be there?' which is not a good place to be...

A still leg is not always easy to achieve but so helpful for a young or sensitive horse too. Of course!! Some horses are physically easier to 'drape' or ride than others - particularly the combo of big or wide horse and smaller rider.

 

[Micky]

Try using your weight instead of putting your leg on ?

 

[tristar]

i use my leg on everything, its a basic training principle acceptance of the leg on a young horse is needed to hack out , in case you

need to go sideways to move out of the way
on a sensitive lively horse i use the leg to ride the horse forwards into the bit, and then feel its under control of leg and hand and the balance and sense of control improves no end in a lively horse, channeling the energy into something constructive