Vaccinations....yes or no after a certain age?

Obviously clients pay more, a vets practice overheads are not small, my point was that vets do not get vacc for free so presumably feel it is necessary or they wouldn't bother. I imagine your £20 for a drontal included a consultation fee, but I agree it is usually cheaper to get wormers online, often the large pet chemist type places can sell at a lower price than vets can buy in!
 
connieconvert said:
It would be interesting to hear from owners of boarding kennels on this topic.
All the ones that I know insist on up to date vaccination certicificates for the dogs in their care.
Any one had experience otherwise ?
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I think that you may well find that the condition is stipulated by their insurance company, when they apply for public liability insurance. Insurance companies will attach just about any conditions which they believe will lessen the risk.

For a while, in my youth, I worked at the Battersea Dog's home. We NEVER sold or re-homed puppies, because they invariably ended up with diseases through lack of vaccinations. We destroyed every puppy, unless it was claimed. Adult dogs, and bear in mind that annual boosters weren't even thought of then, rarely contracted anything sinister, as they'd acquired their own immunity, I always thought. If there were any place which one would think would put dogs at risk, considering the through-put then of some 40 dogs a day, then The BDH would be the place of huge risk. Kennel Cough was endemic, but even then, it was only ever young dogs which seemed to be affected, and we had no suitable vaccines then.

Alec.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Obviously clients pay more, a vets practice overheads are not small, my point was that vets do not get vacc for free so presumably feel it is necessary or they wouldn't bother. I imagine your £20 for a drontal included a consultation fee, but I agree it is usually cheaper to get wormers online, often the large pet chemist type places can sell at a lower price than vets can buy in!
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Nope! This of course was back when you had to get them from a vet, you couldn't buy them from places like Pet City and on the internet without a prescription.
 
Nikki can you explain what you mean by 'waking up' the immune system and why the reaction would be different with a repeated challenge (or I would say reminder). Feel free to wade into the science as although I didn't do a lot of immunology it is there somewhere :D.

Obviously with regards to humans some vaccinations are repeated due to changes in the challenge virus but many are repeated for viruses/bacteria which are genetically pretty stable.
 
In the area I work(rural west of Ireland) vaccination of dogs is not very common. Working sheepdogs as well as many pets around here are rarely vaccinated and there are numerous areas that are parvo blackspots. Most are council estates but their is a couple of popular dog walking spots that seem to feature in the histories of many of our parvo cases. In the last year we have had a very severe outbreak of parvo locally that killed adults as well as pups.

In my time as a student I also came across plenty of parvo cases...the two most common breeds I seen with it were kenneled greyhound pups and working sheepdog pups. All unvaccinated....
In one week we had 5 young collies came in with parvo..the isolation ward was horrific!they ranging from 6 weeks to 5 months and were all originally from a farm that had a known parvo issue for years (he had pups came in yearly with the disease) but said farmer continued to not vaccinate the pups inspite of all recommendations that it would make more financial sense!. He was known for producing good working dogs. So my personal experience is that outbreaks do happen they just aren't advertised.

75-80 percent vaccine cover of the population is what is needed for herd immunity to hinder the spread of the disease and keep the unvaccinated safe. Id imagine the reason the hounds have been kept safe is one as the most at risk dogs..the pups... were vaccinated and as adults they would not be coming into contact with many unvaccinated dogs outside of their own pack's who all had similar disease exposure.

Ironically before I started seeing practice as a vet student I had let my own dog lapse on her vaccinations.She had them as a pup and her first year booster,then erratically...she was rarely in contact with other dogs and the rest of my family is not vet friendly(I never met any small animal vets as a kid only large). But after my first week of small animal placement having seen the consequences I came home and restarted her boosters at age 8!

Ive never seen a dog die from a vaccine reaction but I've seen plenty die from parvo and more than a few from lepto.

Personally however I think titre testing will be the way forward for the future. At least they you know what you are covered for!
 
Aru said:
75-80 percent vaccine cover of the population is what is needed for herd immunity to hinder the spread of the disease and keep the unvaccinated safe. Id imagine the reason the hounds have been kept safe is one as the most at risk dogs..the pups... were vaccinated and as adults they would not be coming into contact with many unvaccinated dogs outside of their own pack's who all had similar disease exposure.


Ive never seen a dog die from a vaccine reaction but I've seen plenty die from parvo and more than a few from lepto.
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I couldn't remember the exact percentage that you quote - but I'd heard that as well. And because there are so many people's pets who are vaccinated, we haven't seen epidemics. Those people who are anti-vaccine are often the happy benefactor of status.

I have never seen lepto or distemper, but sure have seen dogs die from parvo. Not something I ever care to repeat.


Today there was something about three cases of parvo in Milton Keynes (on FB, so arguably not the most reliable of sources).
 
People who don't vaccinate after the 'year or two stage' are not basing it on anything other than that it is cheap.
For those who 'don't vaccinate as they don't come into contact with other dogs' , leptospirosis is not a dog to dog disease, but found in water sources so working dogs are actually more likely to contract it. I have seen it causing liver and kidney failure. I have seen parvo dogs dying (having had the vacc as a pup but nothing since) and the risk of vaccination is far less than the effects of parvo. distemper is very rarely seen due to the vaccination...
 
there was recently a big outbreak of parvo in thel ocal breeding kennels-all the adults had vaccines as pups but nothing since. they lost 3/4 of their stock... But you know, I wouldn't want to scare monger.
 
Inoculations are a bit like believing in God.

If you don't believe in God and there is one, you are up ***** creek without a paddle.

If you do believe in God and there isn't one, you've lost nothing.

If you do believe in God and there is one, you are quids in.

If you don't believe in the danger of these diseases, weighed against the cost, don't inoculate. I don't (at least, not more than once), haven't, and so far (in over 60 years of dog keeping) haven't found myself up the creek far enough to worry about it.

At the end of the day, it's your choice. Just don't expect it to be an informed choice because there are too many vested interests out there giving biased advice!;) So very much like believing in God!:D
 
ester said:
Nikki can you explain what you mean by 'waking up' the immune system and why the reaction would be different with a repeated challenge (or I would say reminder). Feel free to wade into the science as although I didn't do a lot of immunology it is there somewhere :D.

Obviously with regards to humans some vaccinations are repeated due to changes in the challenge virus but many are repeated for viruses/bacteria which are genetically pretty stable.
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Probably a better word to have used would be "educate" or "alert".

Vaccines work by improving immunity to a particular disease. The content of the vaccine usually consists of a dead or nearly dead microbe, or part of a microbe such as its toxic content. The theory goes (and it is correct of course!) that this stimulates the body's immune system to recognise this toxic material as a foreign invader, destroy it and remember the pattern so that in the future such toxins can be dealt with.

The danger of constantly exposing the body of any mammal to this dead microbe is that each time you do so you present the body with a huge immunological challenge, and sometimes things can go wrong. The immune system goes haywire, and dogs for instance can end up with chronic gastroenteritis. My own daughter developed Crohn's disease at the age of 14 - brought on we believe partly through genetics, partly through the stress of going to a new school after having been withdrawn from education for 2 years and partly because of puberty. We don't believe personally that the vaccinations had anything to do with her Crohn's in this instance, but it is not an impossibility.

Far better IMO is for us to give our dogs - and ourselves - their initial vaccinations to wake up our immune systems, and then call it a day.

However - the downside of this is the risk in particular for our dogs of parvo and lepto. Certainly when I last enquired, it was impossible to get hold of the vaccines for parvo and lepto in isolation - it came all wrapped up with distemper, hard pad etc. etc. I believe there is a need for parvo and lepto to be given annually, but only in isolation from the other vaccines. I personally am not prepared to take the risk of having to blast them with the lot, especially as my type of dogs are very vulnerable to anaphylactic shock.

Hope I have explained this clearly!! :confused:
 
SusieT said:
People who don't vaccinate after the 'year or two stage' are not basing it on anything other than that it is cheap.
For those who 'don't vaccinate as they don't come into contact with other dogs' , leptospirosis is not a dog to dog disease, but found in water sources so working dogs are actually more likely to contract it. I have seen it causing liver and kidney failure. I have seen parvo dogs dying (having had the vacc as a pup but nothing since) and the risk of vaccination is far less than the effects of parvo. distemper is very rarely seen due to the vaccination...
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Susie, with the exception of your first sentence, I agree absolutely with everything you say. Lepto and parvo are killers, and I am risking my dogs' lives by not vaccinating. However, unless things have changed, my vet told me fairly recently that you cannot just get the parvo and lepto vaccines in isolation, they are bunged in with all the other stuff like distemper and hard pad which do not need to repeated annually.

I have known several northern breeds - mals, huskies and wolf crosses - who have all died from anaphylactic shock following their boosters.

This is the reason why my dogs do not have their annual vaccinations - nothing to do with cost, but everything to do with the risks associated with vaccines that are unnecessary.
 
I don't know about parvo but you can definitely get the lepto booster on its own, as I said in an earlier post my dogs are done annually for just lepto, and have been for quite a while. Might be worth you asking your vet again.
 
It is difficult to get Parvo & lepto vaccines in isolation but very easy to find the parvo, lepto & parainfluenza vaccine.

As a kennel owner I need to see this in the previous 12 months and distemper etc in the previous three years assuming the initial course is in that vaccination record and THE VET CORRECTLY MARKS THE CARD FOR NEXT DUE as this is what my licence and insurance works on.

Most vets around here do alternate boosters -full one year, LPPi the next - which is a sensible option as the vaccines are usually a year or so behind the strains.

Once you have seen (& smelled) Parvo you would not want the risk of not vaccinating and distemper was almost eradicated until not vaccinating became fashionable.

One a dog has had a reaction it should not be given that form again and I know of GSD puppies that reacted badly to the second part of the initial course which is when you would expect to see anaphalaxis - not at later injections.
 
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Dry Rot said:
Inoculations are a bit like believing in God.

If you don't believe in God and there is one, you are up ***** creek without a paddle.

If you do believe in God and there isn't one, you've lost nothing.

If you do believe in God and there is one, you are quids in.

If you don't believe in the danger of these diseases, weighed against the cost, don't inoculate. I don't (at least, not more than once), haven't, and so far (in over 60 years of dog keeping) haven't found myself up the creek far enough to worry about it.

At the end of the day, it's your choice. Just don't expect it to be an informed choice because there are too many vested interests out there giving biased advice!;) So very much like believing in God!:D
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Great post!!
 
s4sugar said:
It is difficult to get Parvo & lepto vaccines in isolation but very easy to find the parvo, lepto & parainfluenza vaccine.

As a kennel owner I need to see this in the previous 12 months and distemper etc in the previous three years assuming the initial course is in that vaccination record and THE VET CORRECTLY MARKS THE CARD FOR NEXT DUE as this is what my licence and insurance works on.

Most vets around here do alternate boosters -full one year, LPPi the next - which is a sensible option as the vaccines are usually a year or so behind the strains.

Once you have seen (& smelled) Parvo you would not want the risk of not vaccinating and distemper was almost eradicated until not vaccinating became fashionable.

One a dog has had a reaction it should not be given that form again and I know of GSD puppies that reacted badly to the second part of the initial course which is when you would expect to see anaphalaxis - not at later injections.
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Aha - OK, that does sound interesting. I will look into that, thanx for that info.
 
MurphysMinder said:
I don't know about parvo but you can definitely get the lepto booster on its own, as I said in an earlier post my dogs are done annually for just lepto, and have been for quite a while. Might be worth you asking your vet again.
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Thank you - lepto is our biggest threat, because we live in the depths of the countryside surrounded by foxes. They come into our garden regularly, so I will get the boys done for that.
 
s4sugar said:
It is difficult to get Parvo & lepto vaccines in isolation but very easy to find the parvo, lepto & parainfluenza vaccine.

As a kennel owner I need to see this in the previous 12 months and distemper etc in the previous three years assuming the initial course is in that vaccination record and THE VET CORRECTLY MARKS THE CARD FOR NEXT DUE as this is what my licence and insurance works on.

Most vets around here do alternate boosters -full one year, LPPi the next - which is a sensible option as the vaccines are usually a year or so behind the strains.

Once you have seen (& smelled) Parvo you would not want the risk of not vaccinating and distemper was almost eradicated until not vaccinating became fashionable.

One a dog has had a reaction it should not be given that form again and I know of GSD puppies that reacted badly to the second part of the initial course which is when you would expect to see anaphalaxis - not at later injections.
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Just checked vacc card, the single vacc mine have is Nobivac lepto2.
I agree re the smell of parvo, we were unfortunate to bring it back from the first show it every appeared at, it was awful.:(
 
Fwiw I don't think I agree with your theory now you have clarified sorry! I also think toxic is a bad word to use, you are simply presenting the body with a protein that it recognises as different. Essentially if the immune system already recognises the protein as 'alien' it will deal with it pretty quickly and really won't be challenged much. If it doesn't and is therefore more challenged the booster was needed.
 
ester said:
Fwiw I don't think I agree with your theory now you have clarified sorry! I also think toxic is a bad word to use, you are simply presenting the body with a protein that it recognises as different. Essentially if the immune system already recognises the protein as 'alien' it will deal with it pretty quickly and really won't be challenged much. If it doesn't and is therefore more challenged the booster was needed.
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Toxic or toxins - excellent words to use! The vaccine contents consist of dead or nearly dead microbes - or toxic parts of those microbes or proteins.

Vaccines do not always contain surface proteins taken from the dead or nearly dead microbe, they can be produced from the toxins found in these microbes.

In a less than perfect immune system, then I will agree that a booster - just one booster - will be required. But for most animals, including us, I would never vaccinate more than the initial + 1 booster.

Of course, in immunologically compromised animals, such as in my daughter's case with her Crohn's, because her immune system is suppressed with Azathioprine, you could argue that if she were just a baby more than just the initial vaccine + booster would be required.
 
no.. they aren't the toxic parts a toxin in scientific/microbiological definition is something completely different

Some bacteria (not all) do produce toxins but that is completely different to say, their protein coat
 
ester said:
no.. they aren't the toxic parts a toxin in scientific/microbiological definition is something completely different

Some bacteria (not all) do produce toxins but that is completely different to say, their protein coat
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I knew I wasn't wrong ... found this on Wikipedia:

A vaccine typically contains an agent that resembles a disease-causing microorganism, and is often made from weakened or killed forms of the microbe, its toxins or one of its surface proteins.
 
s4sugar said:
No it is because the strains around keep changing - like with the human flu jab.
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Thanx - this is definitely going to be looked into. I remember when we bought our first wolfie boy as a puppy the breeder gave him a jab against parvo, nothing else, just parvo, but when I mentioned this to our vet she went mad and said that was highly illegal! I explained about northern breeds being particularly vulnerable to anaphylactic shock, and she did a lot of researches to try and find parvo and lepto in isolation but couldn't. It would appear that now our boys can be protected against these 2 killers. Thanx everyone for this info.
 
I never said they were never made from the toxins produced by some bacteria, they sometimes are particularly when it is the 'toxic' form that causes pathology, as they (toxins) are a protein BUT more often that not it isn't, it is coat protein (ie not a toxin) (as your wiki :rolleyes: says.) and afaik this is the case with parvo and lepto (ie no toxins involved)- Microbiologist so the meaning of toxin is very specific I'm afraid.

I think we are talking at very different levels, after your first post I was hoping you could give some insight on what you were saying linking it to B and T cells and immunological memory but it appears not.
 
Nikki J said:
As a PS, I believe the reason why we need to vaccinate annually for parvo and lepto is because these are live vaccines - am I right anyone?
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As I understand it, in many practices the current protocol is that parvo/distemper are every three years, lepto is annual as the strains keep changing.
 
PucciNPoni said:
......., lepto is annual as the strains keep changing.
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Assuming that terriers, many of whom will never have seen a needle, for vaccine, or anything else for that matter, and if we also assume that these hardened little ratters will have built up their own immunity, I wonder how that immunity manages to keep up with the constant changes of the disease itself.

Alec.
 
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