Vaccinations

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fallenangel123

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Waiting to pick the kids up today there was a discussion going on after I mentioned I couldn't make a PTA meeting as I had the pups booked for their jabs. Several mums commented that they didn't do it as they had had dogs being very ill afterwards. Does anyone else not get pups done?
My old girl didn't have them after her fifth one and co incidentally her long term stomach problems stopped too but I have always done pups.
What's your verdict?
 
I haven't done B at all because his immune system is already buggered.

Young dog has had his second annual booster and I may want to travel him so will probably keep that up.

I know of a whole litter of greys that died after the 7-in-1.
 
Ostrich said:
LOL :D Perhaps I should question my vets more about what they inject then - I suppose I just trust them to get it right :)
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Oooo.....you are soooo trusting! :) Now, I'm a cynical b*tch and wonder why so many vets still go for annual boosters when three yearly ones are available? Couldn't be the consultation fee could it?

Also, whilst I do not condone indiscriminate breeding, I do wonder at the veterinary advise for such early spey/castration that we so frequently see and ask myself just how much of it is in the interest of the dog and how much in the interest of the bottom line of the vet practice. :(

As I say, I'm a cynic.....
 
Well if you don't mind your dogs being at risk of lepto, parvo, distemper feel free not to vaccinate.. There's a reason they started vaccinating.
 
Ostrich said:
LOL someone who is as cynical as me :D:D:D I agree entirely, I am just a sap pet owner :p so I like them to have an annual MOT (heart check, teeth, eyes, maybe bloods if they are getting older, check the microchip is still where it should be) :D
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Totally agree with an annual MOT for the oldies.....that's what mine get.... but do vets really need to market it along with a jab???!! :D
 
One of my dogs has now been diagnosed with a non bacterial immune response problem i.e his immune system has been triggered and he keeps getting bouts of fever shivers muscle pain ,He is 1 year old .He is now being treated to turn off this immune response
The referring vet at the hospital we went to said that the dogs immune system has been triggered and is not switching off he has sometimes seen this triggering occur following routine vaccination.
He has suggested that we test him when his vaccine is due to see if he actually needs vaccination or if he already carries anti bodies if he does need any they are to be done one at a time and not in a cocktail.
I do wonder why we need to vaccinate every single year for every thing when we have vaccinations they often will last 3 years or 10 years and a lot of our vaccinations done in childhood after the full course don't get re done at all.

Intersting subject
 
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gunnergundog said:
O....... Now, I'm a cynical b*tch and wonder why so many vets still go for annual boosters when three yearly ones are available? Couldn't be the consultation fee could it?.......As I say, I'm a cynic.....
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It was always my understanding that puppies were vaccinated and that it was there to give a puppy protection until it was 12 months of age, by which time it would have built up its own immunity. A dog with an efficient immune system isn't in need of boosters, I wouldn't have thought.

I'm with you, and often wonder how useful the advice is which I receive, when it comes from someone who's doing their level best to sell me something. ;)

Rather than opinions, I'd very much like to see the written evidence that booster vaccinations serve any useful purpose. I am here to be told, but rather than anecdotal opinions, I'd very much like to see hard evidence.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Rather than opinions, I'd very much like to see the written evidence that booster vaccinations serve any useful purpose. I am here to be told, but rather than anecdotal opinions, I'd very much like to see hard evidence.

Alec.
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If you titre test each individual dog then they will tell you their individual level of immunity and then you can choose whether to act on the information or not.

Unfortunately, IME it is more expensive to do individual vaccs.....so if you find a dog is, for example, lepto compromised it will cost more to do that rather than give it the full annual jab. However, that is due to the fact that vets have to buy vaccines in in batches and as most people don't demand individual vaccs they have to recover their costs somehow. :(

Sorry.....think in retrospect I may have mis-read/mis-interpreted the gist of your original post.....
 
Yes-titre testing is ideal. Not something a lot of owners are willing to pay for. Of course, it is not offered maybe as much as it should be either.
 
Regardless of your views on over vaccination etc, I would always get puppies done at least up to first booster at a yet old, I have seen puppies die from Parvo and it is not pleasant. In areas where vaccination rates are low, Parvo is still a real problem, and the PDSA hospitals I have worked at all see regular outbreaks.

After a year it is entirely up to you whether you opt for vaccination or titre testing. Personally, my preferred vacc schedule is Lepto yearly and the rest (DHPPi) every other year, however it must be said a lot of practices still do DHPPiL yearly. There is research now which questions whether a 3 yearly cycle might be appropriate, however if I remember correctly from recent papers there is an issue with some of the components providing protection for 3 years in some dogs but not in others, hence the suggestion to titre test if adopting this, or alternatively titre testing before doing any vaccination.
 
Alec-I suggest you write to the vaccine companies. There is hard evidence, hence the 3 year strategy (which gives lepto every year but not the rest evcept for one in 3 years). IT also depends on the vaccine formula as to how long it is licensed for.
 
Mine are vaccinated annually, i'd have no problem paying for an annual check up and just lepto or titre if went 3 yearly as £25 isn't much to ensure health ok each year. I do think with many who don't bother with boosters its more down to cost saving than health concerns like some, so probably wouldn't titre test instead.

It is mentioned in my adoption contract and my dogs also donate blood 3-4 times a year so we'd also have to drop out of scheme if we stop. I was going to ask the vet about the 3yr type this time round but didn't get chance to. The only negative after effect we've had was Hector yelping as he moved his neck for a few hours after and fine next day, which i suspect was actually down to the vet doing the injection than the vax itself as looked a bit rough.
 
Its a condition of my adoption that my Dobes are vaccinated yearly and obviously the puppy has been done and will be done yearly.

My last dog was treated for Lepto and I read everything I could on it, my vet told me the vaccine only covered a couple of strains and there were many more that was not covered by the current vaccine.
 
Vaccines can have reactions.They are not common.The vast majority of these side effects are mild.A very tiny amount of dogs may die from a vaccine reaction.

The diseases that the vaccines can prevent can kill.Your dog is much more likely to die or be seriously ill if it catches one of the vaccine prevention diseases then it is to have a vaccination reaction.
The two most obvious vaccine controlled disease ones are Parvo virus and lepto.

Parvo results in a bloody diarrhoea and vomiting in puppies.Sometimes older dogs catch it to.The stench of a parvo case and the illness of the pups is difficult to describe.The pups get so dehydrated and miserable as they loose all their water in the vomiting and diarrhoea.Many of these pups die in-spite of aggressive medical treatment from their Vets.It is in the vast majority of cases a preventable disease.Prevented by a vaccination

Leptospirosis(lepto) causes lethargy initally. In acute cases the dogs dont show many signs they just die,some appear depressed first.
High temperatures, shivering, and generalized muscle tenderness occur first in the non acute ones.Most people assume the dog is just off colour. Vomiting,panting are often next little areas of red on the skin as the blood vessels rupture are also sometimes seen.These patients usually die before there are signs of liver or kidney issues.

Subacute leptospirosis is the most commonly.Dogs show high temperatures,they are off their food,they become dehydrated,have reddened skin in their mouths, anorexia,have mild hemorrhages inside them,they can be stiff,often they are vomiting, and have diarrhea.These are all vague signs that could be caused by a variety of problems.
Most owners are worried they may have eaten something that has blocked or didnt agree with them when they visit the vet.
But their kidneys are swelling so they hurt as you put pressure on their abdomen..their liver failing is another sign, as it begins to go under the dogs gums and whites of the eyes turn yellow....These dogs often aren't saveable..they are treated aggressively as well but often the damage is to great.

Ive seen quite a lot of lepto in practice.Mostly after bad times of flooding as rats nests are disturbed and rats are on the move.The rats carry it in their pee.So where they pee is where your dog can pick it up.Particularly seems to thrive in slow moving water like puddles.You would be scared by how common it is to find rats near human homes.Leptospirosis is also zoonotic.You can catch lepto- Weils disease in humans from an infected dog.
Its another preventable disease that dogs can be vaccinated for.

No vaccine is 100 percent effective but in my opinion every little helps and 90 percent is better than 0.

Titres are a nice idea if people would pay for them.
Id prefer to titre and vaccinate accordingly.It would make a lot of sense.But when i think about it further..there are a few issues.
The first cost.many people still resent the cost of vaccines.
The second is how long does the titre last for?is it still yearly,are the ranges an accurate projection as to how long that animal will have immunity? how do you convince someone at the lower end of the scale to vaccinate,how exactly is the scale decided.
Plus im not sure if the changing strains of the vaccines can be accounted for in the titres?
plus the titre only exists for some of the diseases that are vaccinated for.They still need a vaccine for the others anyway.....rambling and thinking outloud now.so i think il add these to my list of things to research later.

BUT most importantly in my mind..... will i have to restain a dog and take blood every year?
Blood taking is a much more invasive procedure than a vaccination injection.Many more dogs resent it.IMO it should be saved for clinical times of need.

Titres are a great idea and hopefully in the future they will be they way forward.However at the minute they are not cheap,vaccines are easier to sell to people.
Plus with every vaccination your animal should be properly examined for other illness and issues.The vaccine exam can help to catch other issues before they become serious problems.
Does it make money for vets.Yes of course it does.Vet practices are business's they have to make a profit to survive.Vets spend five years in collage,this is after hard work and high grades make being lucky enough to get accepted,its not an easy degree,yes we do expect to be paid.
Technically treating a dog for Lepto or Parvo could also make money but I think I know which Id prefer to deal with.Ah its late and I think im rambling.So il stop it here.
 
Interesting points of view and information, but no valid reasons for not having puppy jabs done. I wonder if they had their children done or if they adopt the 'it'll never happen to me' attitude over everything. They were making me feel cruel about taking them to be done, think I would feel more cruel if they got sick!
 
Not having puppies vaccinated is very irresponsible, most puppies will have left their breeder with their first jab done and its important to have the 2nd jab done on time. Its also the time your vet will get to see your pup for the first time and gives you the opportunity to discuss any worries you may have.

Whether you have the booster done in a years time its up to you but should ideally be done for a few years to boost immunity.

Every now and then there are parvo outbreaks and I could never forgive myself if one of mine contracted it and died.
 
Ostrich said:
LOL someone who is as cynical as me :D:D:D I agree entirely, I am just a sap pet owner :p so I like them to have an annual MOT (heart check, teeth, eyes, maybe bloods if they are getting older, check the microchip is still where it should be) :D
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I like the annual MOT part of it too. In fact when I book in I always say it's for a booster and MOT.
 
Aru,

you seem to speak with some experience, so I shall assume that you're either an interested layperson, or a vet.

Accepting that the most vulnerable sector of the canine world are those puppies which have not reached an age where they have built up any degree of immunity, I must press the point, and ask again, once a dog has reached adulthood, and built up it's own immune system, is there really any point to annual boosters?

In my youth (many years ago!) Hardpad and Distemper were rife. Most didn't bother to vaccinate, and again, it seemed to always be the puppies, so often at around the 5-7 month stage, which contracted the diseases. Once they were near to, or at maturity, the risk seemed to have diminished.

I have never vaccinated working sheepdogs, because they never, if ever, go onto public highways, or meet other dogs. They never leave the confines of home, when they're puppies, and as puppies, their contact with others is non-existant. If I kept dogs which, as puppies of under a year, had contact with other dogs, or went into a public arena, then yes, most certainly I'd vaccinate.

My main question though, is still is there a need for annual boosters, and there seems little point in asking my vets, or the vaccine manufacturers, because it would hardly be in their interest to reply in the negative, would it?! ;)

Alec.
 
Im a vet student not a proper vet yet.working on it :p Im on a phone at the min bit once i get My hands-on a computor and some free time il post up some of vaccine research papers.My understanding so far is that to dogs immunity is Not as understood as humans as understandabley Most research has focused ib the human area.Because There was no proof until recently that vaccine responce could've be accurately measured the safest thing to do was use What was known to work...vaccinations.titres aré a relatively new idea and area for vet medicine.so far only a few disease responces have been measured so far.so vaccines are the sagrario options.older dogs do need boosters.immunity is Not lifelong.it isnt in people either Many vaccines need boosters.
 
I'd say always always always get puppy vaccs and 1st annual booster (ie when a year old) done. After this do yearly titre tests if that is what you wish and your vet offers that (although vets I've met that do offer this always strongly advise yearly lepto boosters are still done as immunity for this can drop of quite fast so a clear titre test isn't always quite as much of a guarantee and with it being zoonotic guess that just makes everyone a bit more twitchy about it) with vaccinations as appropriate. Just be aware that because of the titre test being a blood test needing to be taken, sent away and analyzed at an external lab it usually costs more than a vaccination. Also vets go off the vaccine company's recommendations so if the vaccine company is saying to give every 2/3 years then that's likely what they'll be doing. Most vets now do have a system worked out as to which vaccines are given in which year and so it is not that common for everything to be given every year now. I guess what I'm saying is that no there isn't always the need to vaccinate for everything every year and a lot of vets won't be doing that if the vaccines they use recommend a longer time period but if you're making the decision not to then I'd strongly advise titre tests being done every year as older dogs can and do get these diseases and can be very ill and run up astronomical bills. As for puppies it really is not worth the risk of not vaccinating them, their immune systems are not as strong and parvo in particular is particularly devastating.
 
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