Variations in dressage judging

[Muddywellies]

Just having a nose at some results. Three judges. Two out of the three gave what I would say were very encouraging scores and no doubt those competitors went home really pleased. The average of those two judges would have been about the same I think (I haven’t gone as far as getting a calculator out!) One of the judges was so harsh and gave many scores in the 50s with I would guess a significantly lower average. Honestly the difference in that persons judging was glaringly obvious. That person judged me a year or so ago and my score too was in the 50s and I felt totally deflated. Are we ever going to get any sort of uniform judging I wonder ?

 

[milliepops]

Was this affiliated? assuming so given the number of judges. I think it does happen now and then with a panel. If it's over a certain amount different (I think it's 7% but happy to be corrected) they have to discuss it as a group which is a good move.

Now I've got a horse at a level where there's only one test, variations in judging are so apparent even just at normal shows. It's very interesting! I can't get worked up about it, because who am I to say the more generous one is the right one, but I do find it fascinating to see how it all compares.

 

[DressageCob]

I don't think it will ever change because dressage has a necessary amount of subjectivity. I have a very marmite horse and I've done two tests in one day with a difference of 20% in the scores, with no real difference in performance. At championships with multiple judges I have had variations of 10%. there is the ability to review if there is too much of a discrepancy but my experience so far is that they don't change their minds! The difference in score is explained on the basis of perspective.

Like MP, I can't get upset about it. I just laugh it off most of the time. Admittedly though, I do actively avoid places if they frequently use a certain judge, and have withdrawn when I see that judge is working. I pay for transport because I don't have my own, so spending £100+ on an outing when I know I'm not going to get a qualifying score isn't worth it (unless my aim is just to get out). I save my pennies and book in for a different one instead.

 

[LaurenBobby]

I compete unaff and BRC at prelim level, and some judges can have us on 10% difference. Now I know which of the local judges are harsher and more generous judges, and I know if Ive got a good mark for that judge if that makes sense. I try to not get deflated by a harsh score if I feel we went as good as we could do.

 

[Fanatical]

Just for some perspective, when there is a panel of judges they are all sat at different parts of the arena - usually two at the C end and one at E or B. The judge at E or B is likely to see quite a different picture to those at the C end and may see things which those at the C end don't, and vice versa.
Judges want to give good marks and anything 6.5 and under should have a comment with it - so hopefully if one judge is lower, the sheet should explain why.

 

[Muddywellies]

It was three different judges throughout the day all judging separate classes. If you looked down the list of results, the results from that particular judge stuck out like a sore thumb. It would be a huge co-incidence that every person competing under that judge were of a lower standard. Anyway, I just felt for those competitors, as other competitors under the other judges did far better. The scores given by the other two judges were comparable so obviously their opinions were similar. One judge had very different ideas.

 

[splashgirl45]

i find it very interesting to look at the higher level tests where they have a panel of judges...if you look at 1 test there may be 4 that mark higher and are all very similar and the other one marks much lower so it looks like that judge is out of line with the rest, however if you check the placings, quite often the placings are the same, so although one judge is harsher, they are still in line with the others as the placings compare. also the judge at c may mark a halt as an 8 as it looks square from their position, the judge at e can see that it isnt square as they are looking at the side on view so give 6... all judging is subjective so there will be variations..

 

[Velcrobum]

I strongly suggest you go and write or sit in with a judge. you can learn so much doing that. I do a lot of writing and what you see at C can be very very different to that E. Sitting at the end of the long side also picks up straightness issues which the judge at C can only see in Centre Line movements. We all know how few CL movements are in lower level tests. Accuracy is an area that some judges are hot on and others a bit more lenient. You can chuck marks away by not being accurate at the markers.

 

[DabDab]

As said above I think a certain level of subjectivity is vital part of the sport, but yes I know what you mean about a set of scores from a very harsh judge standing out like a sore thumb. Though I actually think that the main thing is that a judge is consistent with themself, the most frustrating judges are the ones that have a favourite type of horse and are really harsh if anything else turns up in the ring. There are a couple like that around here, but they're both unlisted, and just happen to pop up fairly frequently at unaffiliated shows.

 

[BBird]

As they were all marked by lower marking judge there was a level playing field.

I have had difference of 7% twice now and we write down why and it’s discussed at the end of the class with all judges signing. On both occasions we agreed one had been a little high marking and the other a little low meaning the rider came out on the right mark. We discuss our reasons and learn from it but for the rider the average mark has been the right one on both occasions.

The lower mark is not necessarily the wrong one. They may see things the others missed. One judge may be marking a bit high and another playing safe ..not going too low or high The lower marking sheet may have more to learn from

 

[sportsmansB]

I do feel sorry for people who use their scores as a measure of their progress, when they get one of the mean judges who basically seems to start at 5.5 / 6 for a decent movement versus one who starts at a 7. Its all very well saying that they are consistently low markers but for disappointed youngsters, or people with horses to sell who have felt their tests improving and would like the record to reflect that, to get a poor score is disappointing and can put people off.

 

[BBird]

The low score is always assumed the wrong score. No one has ever complained about an over generous scoring judge who can be worse

Higher marks cannot be given to encourage, thats where the comments come in

 

[milliepops]

It was three different judges throughout the day all judging separate classes. If you looked down the list of results, the results from that particular judge stuck out like a sore thumb. It would be a huge co-incidence that every person competing under that judge were of a lower standard. Anyway, I just felt for those competitors, as other competitors under the other judges did far better. The scores given by the other two judges were comparable so obviously their opinions were similar. One judge had very different ideas.

Not a panel then.

Sorry your OP read as though it was a panel of judges. Were they judging a harder test, or more spooky arena?

 

[BBird]

I read it as a panel as well

 

[eggs]

There is a well known judge in my area who does mark rather harshly compared with other judges and I know of a number of competitors that won't go up the centre line if they are judging. I think you just have to suck it up and throw the sheet out! Having said that though it could be that the marking is a little more generous these day.

 

[DressageCob]

The low score is always assumed the wrong score. No one has ever complained about an over generous scoring judge who can be worse

Higher marks cannot be given to encourage, thats where the comments come in

Lol that’s a good point!

I have laughed at inappropriately high scores but never complained about them 😄

 

[Gazen]

The judges can also favour certain types of horses. I stopped going to one (local) venue because the judge hated my type of horse and I would always get judged more harshly than other horses in the class as would other people with similar horses. Thankfully that is the only place that has happened.

 

[BBird]

The judges can also favour certain types of horses. I stopped going to one (local) venue because the judge hated my type of horse and I would always get judged more harshly than other horses in the class as would other people with similar horses. Thankfully that is the only place that has happened.

Only way of going is judged

Did you always get the same comments?

 

[Fanatical]

The judges can also favour certain types of horses. I stopped going to one (local) venue because the judge hated my type of horse and I would always get judged more harshly than other horses in the class as would other people with similar horses. Thankfully that is the only place that has happened.

I would very much doubt it was the case that the judge gave the marks they did just because they disliked the type of horse - especially if it was a listed judge.

 

[blackislegirl]

I would very much doubt it was the case that the judge gave the marks they did just because they disliked the type of horse - especially if it was a listed judge.

I have heard from someone who does a lot of judging that a well-known listed judge round these parts has been heard to wonder 'why anyone bothers to do dressage on a native.'.

I ride a native and the only time she judged me was at a BD winter regional where she had me 7% less than the most generous judge and 6% less than the middle one. I will not knowingly ride in front of her again!

 

[BBird]

You have more than one judge as judge at C cannot see everything. Judges are at different positions for different view points. Judge at C will have view of your centrelines and halts. Judge at M will see how straight you are in mediums on the long side. Judge at B/E will see if you halt at X(not many do) and how round (not many are) your circles are etc. So expect different marks and the lowest isn’t the wrong one. Just means other judge(s) didn’t see it or could be over generous

There is always someone who heard a judge say.. but in my 17 years of training I have never heard any judge say that and I also write for List 1s.

So ignore and enjoy competing your horse.

 

[milliepops]

I have heard from someone who does a lot of judging that a well-known listed judge round these parts has been heard to wonder 'why anyone bothers to do dressage on a native.'.

I ride a native and the only time she judged me was at a BD winter regional where she had me 7% less than the most generous judge and 6% less than the middle one. I will not knowingly ride in front of her again!

I'm a huge advocate for people doing dressage on their natives - I've a thread on here at the mo celebrating just that. But I have also come across one judge who is renowned (even amongst the pros) for having a strong preference for horses long of leg and short of hair.
I just try and avoid them, as much as is possible, as a list 1 it's getting harder because that's who I come up in front of most times now. But I am pleased that is very much the exception, and all the others score our performance, not our appearance.

 

[scats]

I have heard from someone who does a lot of judging that a well-known listed judge round these parts has been heard to wonder 'why anyone bothers to do dressage on a native.'.

I ride a native and the only time she judged me was at a BD winter regional where she had me 7% less than the most generous judge and 6% less than the middle one. I will not knowingly ride in front of her again!

It makes me really sad that people still have these attitudes. I think it’s fantastic that all types of horses are able to get out and do dressage - in fact, I actually have far more appreciation for people out there doing it on the non-conventional dressage types as I know how much trickier it can be with a horse who wasn’t necessarily built in the most athletic way.

I wrote for a judge a few times who used to practically leap out of her seat with excitement when a coloured hairy entered the ring. She judged a few tests I did on Diva too and always had lovely comments, which were so encouraging.

 

[oldie48]

I have heard from someone who does a lot of judging that a well-known listed judge round these parts has been heard to wonder 'why anyone bothers to do dressage on a native.'.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-dressage-judging.778478/#psirkH8rgZfeSvJx.99
I have the opposite problem, they see me bimbling down the centre line and are clearly prejudiced against old ladies who struggle to ride AND remember their test, they love the horse though! Seriously, I think there are few judges these days who are prejudiced against a certain type of horse, I see lots of ponies, natives and cobs getting good scores, often better than I get on my WB.

 

[gunnergundog]

Natives and cobs may be referred to sometimes as 'clockwork mice' but they are regular, rhythmic and generally score points for being accurate and obedient. Flashy warmbloods may move more extravagantly but may often lose points for loss of balance, irregularity and inaccuracy.

 

[oldie48]

Natives and cobs may be referred to sometimes as 'clockwork mice' but they are regular, rhythmic and generally score points for being accurate and obedient. Flashy warmbloods may move more extravagantly but may often lose points for loss of balance, irregularity and inaccuracy.

Totally agree with this and they can also take a lot more riding. I've had horses in the past that would do a nice novice test and were easy to ride, not world beaters but just nice obedient horses, I moved on to more "dressagey" types of horses and found them a hell of a lot harder to ride. It's fun and challenging to learn but anyone who thinks you can go out and buy a flashy moving horse and just go out and win is living in cloud cuckoo land

 

[DabDab]

I have heard from someone who does a lot of judging that a well-known listed judge round these parts has been heard to wonder 'why anyone bothers to do dressage on a native.'.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-dressage-judging.778478/#psirkH8rgZfeSvJx.99
I have the opposite problem, they see me bimbling down the centre line and are clearly prejudiced against old ladies who struggle to ride AND remember their test, they love the horse though! Seriously, I think there are few judges these days who are prejudiced against a certain type of horse, I see lots of ponies, natives and cobs getting good scores, often better than I get on my WB.

Yeah, you definitely get both sides of the coin. Particularly at the lower levels, a non flashy warmblood can be as much as a disappointment in a judge's eyes as cob trundling around on the forehand

 

[blackislegirl]

Yeah, you definitely get both sides of the coin. Particularly at the lower levels, a non flashy warmblood can be as much as a disappointment in a judge's eyes as cob trundling around on the forehand

In fairness, the judge I referred to (who is List 2 btw) is in my experience the exception. She is the only one I have come across with this prejudice against natives. My boy and I 'trundle round, often on our forehand', but we are rhythmical and accurate and I almost always think the marks are fair.