Variety making life more complicated....

[stormox]

There are a lot of threads on here, on FB, on 'dodgy dealer' pages about people buying horses, getting them home and finding they act differently - 'Must have been be drugged' 'I was told lies' 'He was so calm he must have had no water' etc. 'I want to return him I'm within 7 or however many days' is often heard.
Do these people ever think about it from the horses viewpoint??
Back in the 60s and 70s problems were much rarer - could this be because of the era we live in? In those days most people were either Army taught, or BHS which derived from the Army. Most horses were stabled, at least at night. Only ponies really lived out completely. Arena work was rare, good long hacks and hunting was the norm. So a horse going from one home to another had pretty much the same routine - 8am feed muck out, 8.30 excersize, 10 a good groom, snooze away till evening stables .... tack was fairly standard, snaffle pelham or double. Rugs were all the same..... riding was fairly BHS and standard.
But now things can be done so many different ways - horses move from being in at night to out all the time or vice versa. A lot of riders buy a horse 'to learn to ride on'. Some horses never leave an arena then suddenly they are expected to face the world on a hack. So many different bridles, saddles, ways to lunge....... people watch programs on telly and try to emulate the 'expert horse trainer' without having the experience.
Are we fair on new horses? Do we give them a chance? Sometimes I think not!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I agree some people seem to think that horses are like machines and can just be moved around with no ill effects whatsoever.

 

[milliepops]

haven't a clue on oldfangled routines but I agree that moving horses can make them very unsettled and lead to complete personality transplants. I have had 2 at livery for the last 6 years or so (so haven't had to move a single horse very often) and find they move better when they stay with a friend and obviously their handler is the same. but it still sends everything into disarray for a while.

I've recently moved mine to a yard where one has been going for training for years so she's settled fairly quickly after a short period of being feral, but the other went really backward. it's frustrating but you just have to remember that his whole world has gone upside down.
i also think sometimes outward appearances can make it seem like they are settled but when you know them well, you see how they aren't. My backward one was sleeping in his stable from the second day but his ridden work is disrupted, that's where the anxiety comes out. the one who is more familiar with the yard and whose ridden work is going well will take ages to sleep in her box.

 

[mini_b]

Agree.
yes, there are horses that should have stayed with the meat man for reason xyz and sold by dodgy folk to novicey folk.

but there are many perfectly good horses labelled as bad because they’ve not had a chance to settle in new surroundings.
people forget how nervous they are starting a new job or moving to a new place...
...there poor things have moved, everything is different and now their person is shouting at them because they are scared.

I was told it takes one of each season for a horse to truly settle.
I think mine took from winter until the summer to really know that it’s home.

 

[Muddywellies]

Also back in the day, feeding was waaaay simpler too. Nowadays horses are sky high from being pumped full of all sorts that social media convinces people they must buy.

I'm also seeing so many people buying horses who are raw novices. We seem to live in a society that people can get whatever they want. We have a complete beginner on our yard who has a large welsh x and tbh it's quite toe curling what's going on. When it all goes wrong doubtless it'll be the horse's fault.

 

[Bernster]

Been thinking of this myself recently following a yard move. Had my boy 5 years and felt I knew him well. He has changed and for the better. This yard seems to suit him for various reasons. He’s much more likeable (he was always a bit in yer face on the ground) and seems much happier.

So even for a known horse the yard clearly has a big impact on them. And not just the initial settling in period. 7 days obv isn’t enough to assess them properly but I can understand why a seller needs a short return window if that’s what they are going to offer. A shame though as the horse doesn’t really stand much of a chance.

 

[stormox]

haven't a clue on oldfangled routines but I agree that moving horses can make them very unsettled and lead to complete personality transplants.

I wouldnt call it an 'old fangled' routine, as many horses follow that routine nowadays, especially in professional or hunting yards. But when most horses were kept like that 'The Manual of Horsemanship' style, horses didnt change routine so much when they changed yards. Nowadays they are likely to find themselves following a totally different routine every time they move!
Not that progress is a bad thing, horses were kept fairly unnaturally then, but I do think we should give them time.....

 

[Cortez]

How does everybody think horses that compete regularly cope, then?

 

[stormox]

How does everybody think horses that compete regularly cope, then?

Most people/horses who compete are used to going out and about, have been taught to cope, and if they havent they are probably young and may well have a melltdown!
I am talking about horses who have lived their lives in a routine, say being hunted twice a week, hacked out other days then suddenly find themselves in a routine of 1/2 hour walk in a school when owner can be bothered. Or are used to a firm positive rider for the past few years and suddenly get a weak ineffective one. Or horses like my own mare, who Ive owned for 4 years since she was 3, she does everything, hacks, shows, xc etc not a bother. But she turned into a nappy bitch when I lent her to someone who tried to hack her somewhere strange.
Different saddles, different routines, its like kids changing schools. Upsetting and should be treated in a sympathetic manner, not just sent back as 'not what I tried'.

 

[milliepops]

I wouldnt call it an 'old fangled' routine, as many horses follow that routine nowadays, especially in professional or hunting yards. But when most horses were kept like that 'The Manual of Horsemanship' style, horses didnt change routine so much when they changed yards. Nowadays they are likely to find themselves following a totally different routine every time they move!
Not that progress is a bad thing, horses were kept fairly unnaturally then, but I do think we should give them time.....

I meant the times you quoted, I am a child of the 80s and never kept my horses on a "Proper" yard that ran to a strict routine until 2 years ago, and I actually found they got progressively more stressed by it

Cortez my horses do compete quite a bit, we often box off here and there and I find they cope with a short stay-away really well. but the routine is totally different (stabled full time) and I do think it takes a bit of practice to get to the point where you can stay away somewhere and have the horse in a good place mentally, to pull off a good performance though. The one of mine that is fairly easy to move is great for about 3 days, then she sort of crashes. But I'm not a pro on the sort of regime where the horses don't know what continent they are on half the time... probably like most amateurs it's easier to take the line of least resistance and get them into a relaxed state at home, to recharge from

 

[mini_b]

How does everybody think horses that compete regularly cope, then?

I think repeated exposure to new circumstances sets the horse up for success.

Possibly sticky in the beginning but regularly competing horses aren’t usually owned by total novices so owners are able to handle any teething issues before they get out of hand.

Many of these horses haven't left the yard many times before at all, then have a shit fit when they do. Understandably.

 

[milliepops]

I think repeated exposure to new circumstances sets the horse up for success.

Possibly sticky in the beginning but regularly competing horses aren’t usually owned by total novices so owners are able to handle any teething issues before they get out of hand.

Many of these horses haven't left the yard many times before at all, then have a shit fit when they do. Understandably.

yeah there are threads on here periodically where people are moving yards, who don't have transport so haven't gone anywhere for years and suddenly have to train their horses to load on a trailer.. they are the kind who aren't conditioned to that regular exposure to new places.

 

[scruffyponies]

I think there are a number of factors in the horse world today which make it harder for horses to be on their best behaviour, especially when they change hands, but just generally:

Modern feeds - too much, highly processed, unknown content etc
Individual turnout (or none at all)
Under-confident, inconsistent handling

It's no wonder so many horses are stressy and have poor manners.

 

[DressageCob]

I do think a move to a new stables, new carers, new routine can be traumatic and confusing for a horse. And I agree that sometimes they aren't given the benefit of the doubt and people are quick to criticise the sellers.

I personally think we should have animal-specific legislation on sales. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 is fine if the problem is a machine not working properly, a mirror arrives broken, the clothes have dodgy stitching etc. But 30 days is not enough time for a horse to settle into its new surroundings, so that you can judge whether the behavioural issues presented are due to the horse not being as described or because it has had a major lifestyle change which it needs time to get used to.

Because buyers have such limited timeframes to work with, they can be too quick to determine that the horse was not as described, when in fact if they gave it more time it will turn into the safe, confidence-giving, suitable for novices, perfect horse that they expected.

When I bought my first horse I had some issues. He was foot perfect when I tried him out. I barely did anything because I had just had some major surgery on my shoulder, but he was safe and looked after me. I actually worried about whether he was too basic for me. We got him to my yard and he was a different pony. Very forwards, a bit rude to handle, very cocky, bucked out hacking etc. The type of thing people return horses for. But he had gone from living on grass and air to being fed on the yard routine, three times a day. He was in most of the time (because we quarantine new horses) and he had gone from a private home with one person looking after him to a busy riding school with several members of staff, plus liveries and clients interacting with him. It was a big change.
If I had returned him then I would have missed out on my horse of a lifetime. I've had him 11 years this October and he couldn't be more perfect.

 

[milliepops]

I do think a move to a new stables, new carers, new routine can be traumatic and confusing for a horse. And I agree that sometimes they aren't given the benefit of the doubt and people are quick to criticise the sellers.

I personally think we should have animal-specific legislation on sales. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 is fine if the problem is a machine not working properly, a mirror arrives broken, the clothes have dodgy stitching etc. But 30 days is not enough time for a horse to settle into its new surroundings, so that you can judge whether the behavioural issues presented are due to the horse not being as described or because it has had a major lifestyle change which it needs time to get used to.

Because buyers have such limited timeframes to work with, they can be too quick to determine that the horse was not as described, when in fact if they gave it more time it will turn into the safe, confidence-giving, suitable for novices, perfect horse that they expected.

I think there are so many difficulties with this it would be hard to get right.
Yeah ideally you'd have more time to let a horse settle in and get to know its new environment so you could get a better assessment of how it will behave (hopefully well!)
On the other hand, having a long period where the new owner could reject the horse is fraught with risk for the seller. Leaving aside the potential for the horse getting injured, the longer someone has the horse, the more "detraining" they can do. How would you prove that the horse had been suitable for a novice 3 months ago before it was subjected to - say, bad parelli-ing, or was ragged around by a teenager who let it get away with murder, or whatever ?

 

[DressageCob]

I think there are so many difficulties with this it would be hard to get right.
Yeah ideally you'd have more time to let a horse settle in and get to know its new environment so you could get a better assessment of how it will behave (hopefully well!)
On the other hand, having a long period where the new owner could reject the horse is fraught with risk for the seller. Leaving aside the potential for the horse getting injured, the longer someone has the horse, the more "detraining" they can do. How would you prove that the horse had been suitable for a novice 3 months ago before it was subjected to - say, bad parelli-ing, or was ragged around by a teenager who let it get away with murder, or whatever ?

Absolutely. I don't think there is any easy fix.

With misrepresentation you can reject (void the contract) at any time, so sellers always have that risk if the horse isn't as described, whether they are professionals or private sellers. There is little protection for them, other than proving that their description of the horse was accurate as far as they were concerned. For example, having photos or videos of the horse with a novice rider, a decent competition record, witnesses who can vouch for it. All of that can be quite difficult for a dealer to prove, but easier for a private seller.

I would rather there was no automatic right to reject (as under the Consumer Rights Act) for horses, except for very narrow and specific circumstances. For example, undeclared medical conditions (which couldn't be identified on a vetting, such as a history of ulcers), known but undeclared vices (such as wind sucking), dangerous behaviour (such as rearing, blind bolting etc) and clear contradiction with the basic defining elements of the horse (mare, when it's a gelding, gelding, when it's a stallion, 14.2hh when it's 13hh etc.) and those only when buying unseen.

Then any other quibbles with the description of the horse have to be approached from a misrepresentation standpoint and there is the opportunity for both sides to produce evidence.

Then a mediation or arbitration system so that the matter can be determined fairly swiftly without the need for litigation. But going through the process gives the horse a little more time to adjust to its new lifestyle and hopefully the buyers end up satisfied.

I think the right to reject earns horses a bad name too quickly. People return the horses to dealers who then try to sell them on again, and suddenly the original buyer is all over social media saying that the horse is not as described, it's dangerous etc. When in fact it bucked once because they had fed it up, hadn't turned it out and then took it to an open field in company for a fast hack.

Descriptions are always open to interpretation and subjective opinions as to the meanings of words. When someone says novice they may mean someone who hasn't owned horses before, can walk/trot/canter but nothing fancy, riding school trained but no competition record etc. For someone else it may mean complete beginner, never been off the lead rein. That's why I don't like the "not as described" approach for animals.

 

[LEC]

I bought my mare from her breeder - came home and she hated being at my parents (one retired horse for company and turnout all day in all weathers and in at night with just the two of them). Literally couldn't cope, so I moved her and she is happy on a busy yard with a strict routine.

A lot of people are stupid buying horses. They don't look at the set up the horse is currently in and happy. They don't think will that horse be able to work with my lifestyle? How much work does it currently get? Will the set up I have work for them? They don't ask if the horse likes a routine or if its happy being dealt with adhoc. They just expect it to be able to transition immediately into a new environment. You only have to look at the workplace of any large office to know how many personalities there are and how some people are better at change than others, how some people like routine, how some are not bothered, how some like variety.....

The old days argument doesn't really stack. The equestrian industry has if anything become less professional. With increasing wealth there has been a move towards spending money on leisure and horses have proliferated. In my village there were just two horse owners. Now there are over 10. A lot of people dream of horses as children but can actually fund it as adults. They have no formalised care knowledge from professionals and usually read some books to try and cover the shortfall of knowledge. People are not willing to go and put the time into learning about stable management. I personally do not think enough emphasis is placed on it now.

 

[Maryann]

When I was a teenager I used to help out with hunter liveries at weekends. A favourite of mine, who had been a classy eventer in his younger days, came up for sale but the very knowledgeable yard owner told my dad not to buy him because he would not be the same horse turned out with sheep and cattle on the farm. It has taken me a long time to realise he was probably right.

 

[Muddywellies]

Some of these stories remind me of something which happened years ago. I was putting out my ex partners horse on loan (an ex race horse). Teenager seemed well suited and moved him to a yard closer to her home where her mum stabled hers. I asked that his simple feeding stayed the same and suggested she doesn't take him on the gallops they had at their yard. Yes you guessed it, he went from 24hr turnout with me and simple feed and hay, to 24hr stabling, haylage and she took him to the gallops where he became too much for her. Then had a call from distraught father telling me the horse wasn't suitable. I went and collected him immediately and had little to say to them. Poor horse took a good few weeks to settle back down and I didn't loan him out again.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

How does everybody think horses that compete regularly cope, then?

Presumably the same team accompanies those horses to each competition and follows a similar routine prior to/at/after the comp.

 

[Carrottom]

I bought an 8 yo gelding from a dealer and kept him on a big yard. He was lovely for 2 weeks then became very nappy. I was lucky to have them help from staff and we got it sorted out. I took him on holiday for a week and he was fine. A year or so later we moved area so he was moved to different yard and after 2 weeks started napping, it took a couple of weeks to sort it, then he was fine.
3 years later we moved again, he was fine for 2 weeks then began napping, I was sort of expecting it so it didn't last long but it did demonstrate to me the effects that moving a horse can have, even though his human contact remained constant.

 

[Caol Ila]

To answer Cortez's question:

I think my horse is perfectly aware that there is a difference between temporary accomodation, like when at a competition or clinic, and a more permanent move. I haven't competed in years, but she still knows. She's quite sensible and behaves normally for the first few days at a new yard, but if she doesn't like the yard, she wakes up one day realising, "Oh, shit. She hasn't moved me yet. That means I'm LIVING here." Then the fencewalking starts.

That totally caught me out. The yard we had to leave after five days due to fencewalking was one where she'd stayed for two days at a clinic. She was 100% happy and chilled at the clinic, so I reckoned the yard was a safe bet. Nope, the horse actually knows how the world works. Once she twigged that we weren't at a show or clinic, she made her objections known.

 

[dorsetladette]

I think you could put it down to a variety of different reasons.

These days we are a though away society and if something isn't perfect straight away we want something else. (not speaking for myself, more a general comment watching a generation grow up).
The people that post the threads about horses being missold aren't willing to work at an issue and expect a ready made horse and to instantly be a ready made partnership. As kids we had ponies (we were very lucky) but those ponies were naughty ponies that other people couldn't manage. We didn't get them because we were excellent riders, we got them because it was what our parents could afford.
You didn't buy a horse (unless you were disgustingly rich) that would take you to badminton, burghley, hoys, olympia, etc. You bought a horse and took it to those places. You worked with a 'quirk' you didn't think it was a fault or a flaw in your horse, it was just your horse.
everyone wants perfection these days and it just doesn't happen, animals aren't perfect by nature. Valegro and Utopia weren't born doing GP dressage tests were they???

Just my take on it anyway. but I have a field of 'quirky' ponies that no one else would probably want

 

[oldie48]

We've had about 15 horses and ponies over the years including companions. They have been a mixture of either youngsters in their first few years of ridden work, established competition horses that have seen a bit of life or the odd companion pony that for some reason no longer had a ridden career. TBH despite my relative inexperience, even in the early years of horse ownership, I never had any real issues except for the tendency to revert to previous behaviours eg not standing to be mounted or been a bit more tense and rushy. If anything I have found horses are often less confident initially and therefore less challenging than they might be when they have properly settled in. All our horses/ponies have travelled and stayed away and again, I find they have tended if anything, to be a little more "clingy". The only horse that I had to sell on to a more experienced home was one that developed severe separation issues when we moved to our own quiet yard and he became inseparable from my daughter's connie mare tbh even with 20 years more experience under my belt I still don't think I would have been able to cope, definitely a case of a horse that was on the wrong yard. In the main, I think horses that have been well started, given a good experience of life and have basically nice temperaments cope with change better than those who have been rushed or not seen much of the world.

 

[ycbm]

I meant the times you quoted, I am a child of the 80s and never kept my horses on a "Proper" yard that ran to a strict routine until 2 years ago, and I actually found they got progressively more stressed by it

Cortez my horses do compete quite a bit, we often box off here and there and I find they cope with a short stay-away really well. but the routine is totally different (stabled full time) and I do think it takes a bit of practice to get to the point where you can stay away somewhere and have the horse in a good place mentally, to pull off a good performance though. The one of mine that is fairly easy to move is great for about 3 days, then she sort of crashes. But I'm not a pro on the sort of regime where the horses don't know what continent they are on half the time... probably like most amateurs it's easier to take the line of least resistance and get them into a relaxed state at home, to recharge from

I'd agree with this. Having done overnighters in the past, I would say it takes a couple of days for them to realise their world has been turned upside down. If you get them back home first, they seem to cope fine.

Having said that, my new mare, who had lived in the places before she came to me, shook for 3 days when she arrived, poor lass.
.

 

[Batgirl]

I was given insight into this when I moved my first horse. I bought an ex-riding school 16yo Section D, I had a whale of a time on him, definitely a novice ride, novice to handle (the only thing he wasn't a novice ride for was hacking alone) I was in my 20's, calm, well taught by a few good horse people and strong and consistent (but had only been riding for 10 months, don't ask, sh*t or bust is me all over!)

10 months later I moved him to a new yard and I found out (two weeks after it had been happening daily) that he was bolting out of his stable, running people over and generally being a twit.

Had I sold him, I am sure I would have been called all sorts of names under the sun or mis-selling him.

I moved him back to the original yard, he settled. When I sold him I was 100% honest.