Very Confuddled

[lynz88]

This is quite long so I will try to shorten as much as possible but I'm completely at my witts end here and thinking it's time to just put said horse in a retirement field somewhere. Last Nov he was on box rest and then went out and has never been quite right since. We know he injured himself because the chiro found all sorts of things a few weeks later but he's been Mr Grumps - very, very reactive when grooming, particularly on the right side. Put him on Protexin and he seemingly got better - then went off and got worse - so put him back on at the stress scoop and thought things were getting better as I could groom him with limited and sometimes no grumpiness. The odd time he didn't like me picking up his RF but didn't think too much about it. Gave him a good few months off with regular chiro and just hand walking. Chiro is really good and can spot lameness a mile away and will work until either it's been resolved or she thinks it needs vet attention. Started him in light long lining work and he has been sticky but not too bad - can still see power coming from behind and isn't dragging himself completely along on the forehand albeit he just isn't giving it his "all". Figured psychological because he hasn't been doing much for a very long time. Actually got on him the other weekend to just walk him about and was short and sticky, but plodded on. Second day on him he wasn't happy at all and had to get another horse to come with. Went down one morning before work and Sir Grumps A Lot is back.....it hit me that I've been coming down late afternoon, after he's been out all day and moving about. Made him work/move about and after, was happier to be groomed.

This week decided to do a bute trial and see. Started Sunday evening. Left him Monday. Went down last night. Grumpy to brush but is walking out - stickiness has gone. Went down this morning - SUPER grumpy to brush, would absolutely not give me his RF unless I tied him, but is walking out - again, stickiness has gone. So, on the one hand, the stickiness has gone and he's MUCH more forward and willing to move so but on the other hand, he's getting more grumpy to groom. Was completely fine to groom after working.

I will be speaking with my vet when I see her next but wondering if anyone has experienced anything of the sort? I've been through EPM, pedal bone issues (which we still have but I know this isn't the problem), arthritis in the hocks/suspensories, SI pain/issues all previously and he's never been like this. KS has run through my mind but have seen it in other horses and not entirely convinced because it has only started after a particular event (him going out in the field after box rest). So confuddled about this one....I did check ulcer pain points and there wasn't really any reaction (strangely enough). Y/O also very confuddled and never seen anything like it in his life either.

BTW he only does this with me and he is fine when he is tied up. I've tried to demonstrate to others what he does but he is then distracted by them and isn't reactive...

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

From what you have said, I would suspect ulcers caused by the stress of box rest and rxacerbated by the but. I guess he needs the bute for stiffness, so would speak to the vet about scoping for ulcers. Meantime, I would feed aloe Vera juice just before the bute to buffer the irritation.

 

[milliepops]

ulcers would also be on my mind from what you have described. of course it might not be that but it's a fairly obvious starting point. are you insured? the scope is reasonably cheap in the grand scheme of things.

ETA when my mare had ulcers she would go on/off sticky with work, some days fairly OK, other days would not even contemplate doing any work at all. I pretty much let her have the time off while they were being treated and then returned to work very gradually. vet felt her behaviour was disproportionate to the degree of ulceration seen, but the horse knew what she felt so i gave her the benefit of the doubt.

 

[ycbm]

To be honest with that history I'm absolutely astonished that your vet hasn't pushed for an ulcer scoping, before putting him on bute which often makes them a lot worse.
.

 

[Red-1]

I'm a bit confused too.

What happened to make him be on box rest, what did the vet diagnose to suggest box rest?

It does sound like ulcers are likely, what did the vet say about that?

I presume the Chiro has had dialogue with the vet, if they are treating a long term issue, what was the action plan?

I am also surprised the vet gave bute without checking for ulcers, but that must be so as bute is prescription only, or were you using bute acquired by some other means?

I am also unsure as to what the delay is to getting the vet's opinion now?

Are you thinking that the horse has a lameness, that was initially helped by box rest, that then kicked ulcers off? If so, what was the rehab plan after box rest?

Are you thinking that the lameness is now masked by bute, but that has again kicked off the ulcer?

I think I would be actively calling the vet rather than waiting until I next saw them.

 

[lynz88]

It seems everyone is fairly consistently thinking the same - I guess what is throwing me off is that he's better after moving around which doesn't seem consistent with an ulcer-y horse? Or maybe I'm just being a total ignorant idiot?

For reference, he went on box rest for a potential abscess (it turned out there was a stone lodged very deep in a crevice in the frog which was by far not a healthy frog after having taken shoes off about 5 weeks prior). It wasn't for very long - perhaps a few days. He isn't a fan of being cooped up but he's been through far worse and not had an issue. I do know from what the girls told me at the yard, that he was a total loon to turn out a few days later when everything cleared. Went down after he had been out and that's when his reactivity to grooming started. Had chiro out and found he was out in the SI, over his back, through his ribs, sternum, and I think we found a few other areas (it was so long ago now). So we know that he definitely did some lunatic things in the field to cause him pain from that point. Sorted that out and was happier to move forward - have had a few periods where he has been happy to move out and other days he acts like he's 100 years old and other days are somewhere in between (sound like your story, milliepops). He's been seen by the chiro fairly regularly since and she's quite good and hasn't been able to spot anything that makes her think twice but then again he managed to hide an SI issue from everyone for quite some time so it's very, very difficult to pinpoint issues sometimes.

I know someone is going to absolutely go nuts on me about this but I've got bute from a previous time in history and after speaking with YO about the fact that he is far, far less reactive after moving around, suggested doing a bute trial just to see. Perhaps I've got my answer....my YO and I were talking about aloe juice as well this morning when I was chatting it out and mentioned to get the 98% pure aloe one and has seen very good results on horses (so this is going on my 'urgent' shopping list) but I was still mentally baffled by the fact that he's almost perfectly fine (to groom) after having moved around. He also happens to be going through a somewhat similar story with one of his and is banging head against a wall.

My vet has pretty much given up practice and I've not found a vet that I otherwise trust. She is down quite a bit to the yard and I speak with her on a fairly regular basis, even if it seems like otherwise from my post.

 

[milliepops]

Mine got "better" as in more compliant if i insisted she did stuff. for a couple of days i did that, because vet told me that her ulcers were very mild and she could be exercised, and I relied on work to keep her weight steady. The feeling i got (completely unscientific) was that after she got moving the initial discomfort deadened. but i felt it was still unfair to put her through that - mine is a horse who is willing up to a point, and I didn't want to push her to do stuff that was not comfortable.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My horse was far worse on a short bute trial. Vet thought that she was a shoo in for foregut ulcers, but she scoped clear.

It was her hind gut. Succeed supplement went on to control the symptoms for a good while, but the breakthrough came when I ran the equibiome test on her and followed their post results advice. Her hind gut biome was way off. She is massively improved now, though it is quite possible that she has some residual permanent gut damage.

Right hind/side discomfort is one indicator of hind gut issues.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Maybe he has dicked about in the field, fell over and bruised/cracked a rib or knocked his pelvis or shoulder hard. None of these would produce a lame horse but would give you a stiff grumpy one.

 

[lynz88]

Elf on a Shelf - this is what I keep thinking because he's been known to do stuff like that.
TP - interesting on the right side thing because that is especially where he is just adamant not to be touched. I don't feel bad for doing a small bute trial now to see if anything can be pinpointed.
MP - good point in that they may also become 'deadened'

 

[I'm Dun]

My horse was far worse on a short bute trial. Vet thought that she was a shoo in for foregut ulcers, but she scoped clear.

It was her hind gut. Succeed supplement went on to control the symptoms for a good while, but the breakthrough came when I ran the equibiome test on her and followed their post results advice. Her hind gut biome was way off. She is massively improved now, though it is quite possible that she has some residual permanent gut damage.

Right hind/side discomfort is one indicator of hind gut issues.

Similar to mine, in that it was hind gut. Triggered by a move, change in diet and pain from an abcess. He was also reactive on his right side in a biggish area around his loins. Hes been much better treated for hind gut acidosis and I'm about to feed the equibiome oily herbs as I want his hind gut as healthy as possible going forward.

 

[lynz88]

I think I may run the equibiome test as a starting place because this is sounding like fairly familiar territory. He is very unhappy over his loins as well. The problem with this horse is, you poke and ask "does this hurt?" for a specific issue. He responds by saying "it hurts" You poke elsewhere for something else and he says "it hurts" You poke somewhere else for yet another thing and he says "IT HURTS STOP POKING ME!" You are then left sitting there baffled going "I've just poked around for 3 very different things and he's telling me it all just hurts which is very unhelpful!" My vet has a very, very hard time with him and I do too.

It took at least 1.5 years to figure out his SI and it wasn't until a friend of mine had a horse who displayed very odd behaviour and she found out it was the SI did I start to put 2 and 2 together for my guy. In the time, we poked and prodded everywhere (but there). Started poking around the SI and voila!

 

[lynz88]

TP just found your post from last year about oily herbs. I've never heard of this....and I'm not one to poo on herbal remedies tbh. I did the GH sarc-x last year which worked wonders.

 

[Goldenstar]

My thought would be you have two issues pain from an undiscovered issue and ulcers I would be ringing the vet to tell them I was booking him in for a scope .

He then needs a work up from a very experienced vet who specialises in problems with performance type work ups .
No matter how good a chiro is they are not trained to diagnose.

 

[Lady Jane]

Problems on the rigt hand side and RH indicate hind gut imbalance. I would be inclined to also test for ulcers

 

[Tiddlypom]

My thought would be you have two issues pain from an undiscovered issue and ulcers I would be ringing the vet to tell them I was booking him in for a scope .

He then needs a work up from a very experienced vet who specialises in problems with performance type work ups .
No matter how good a chiro is they are not trained to diagnose.

I do agree, but in the meantime addressing possible hind gut issues would only be beneficial. If a horse moves wonkily because of hind gut issues, it is likely to develop musculoskeletal issues elsewhere as a knock on effect.

My home bred mare with hind gut issues was training at BE100 and getting good dressage scores, but always with a 'weak' right hind. She came back off loan broken and has since had her front coffins, hocks and SI all medicated just to get her pasture sound. The chances are strong that it was her then unrecognised hind gut issues that set up the chain of events that led to her needing all these other veterinary interventions.

You can't scope for hind gut ulcers, the only definite diagnosis is on a post mortem exam. The equibiome test and resultant dietary tweaks are pretty straightforward, though.

ETA Interestingly, I had to put her on another short course of Danilon recently after she struck into herself. Last time, pre hind gut diagnosis, it sent her nuts, but this time she was fine on it.

 

[LaurenBay]

Scope for ulcers, stop the bute until then (bute can make ulcers worse)

 

[lynz88]

Bute is being stopped and I think I am really leaning towards the equibiome test as a starting place as it does sound like what I am going through is fairly consistent with Tiddlypom's experience (have also been trolling other threads for the past almost 24 hours), particularly given the issues on the right side. Might as well start small and see what comes back (if anything) before going all out and also potentially finding nothing.

I do agree chiro's are not trained to diagnose - I am lucky in that mine is a vet/chiro and has found and fixed many issues in the past based on described behaviour. I would not use a chiro in place of a vet at all but is usually a good starting point for mine as the chiro can help identify whether it's a problem she can fix but also scenarios when she thinks that I need to speak further with the vet when she thinks there is a bigger issue at play.

 

[Sossigpoker]

You should get him scoped for ulcers as his behaviour strongly indicates he has them. The only way to diagnose them is via a scope, no other test can reliably tell you if there are ulcers or not.
Some vets may agree to treat on the symptoms alone without a scope ,.but this isn't ideal as then you can't monitor the progress and therefore the effectiveness of the medication.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It is only foregut ulcers that can be scoped for. Hind gut ulcers can only be definitively diagnosed on post mortem.

Whilst this horse shows symptoms that do suggest hind gut issues, I would still recommend scoping him for foregut ulcers as well to rule them in or out.

My own vet, although she though that foregut ulcers were highly likely in my mare, strongly preferred scoping first to check before prescribing medication on a hunch. The scope was clear, which was a surprise, and it stopped us from going down the wrong rabbit hole.

The results from the Equibiome faecal analysis take 8-10 weeks to come back. It would do no harm to put the horse on the oily herbs and the Equibiome prebiotic whilst waiting for the results to come back.

ETA My chiro vet, who first suggested the Equibiome test for my mare, was present at the PM of a horse which had hind gut ulcers. She said that it was an awful sight, there was so much damage.

 

[lynz88]

scoping for foregut is on the list. He's currently on the Protexin Gut Balancer - I'm wondering if this should be fed alongside the Equibiome prebiotic since the Protexin is both pre and pro biotic? Or just switch over completely and see what happens (while waiting for the test results)? Where can I get the oily herbs and/or how do I know which and how much herbs to feed (it looks like its a mixture of thyme, oregano, and rosemary)?

I am, in all honest, very curious to see what the results are in general. I have a sneaking feeling that there are lots of things in his gut that are just "off"

 

[Tiddlypom]

For the oily herb mix, I combine 500g each of dried thyme, oregano and rosemary, and then feed a 50 ml spoon of that twice daily mixed in the feed.

I buy my herbs from:

https://www.buywholefoodsonline.co....VFH3M2WrwwjtRbODrJVDMCzJkUaQ_gbgaAqYBEALw_wcB

Other suppliers are available . If you've got it fresh growing in the garden, even better.

 

[SEL]

Equinatural have got some good articles up on herbs and the biome. I keep all mine on a sprinkle of oily herbs - really should dry my own given oregano is a weed in my garden.

One of mine has suffered badly with her gut on and off and when it's bad (now) she eats for England and looks "off" behind. She has PSSM so gets into that circle of muscles causing gut to flare which in itself causes her to tense... And so on.

I do think a scope is worth it though because I needed omeprazole to get her on track.

 

[HashRouge]

Equinatural have got some good articles up on herbs and the biome. I keep all mine on a sprinkle of oily herbs - really should dry my own given oregano is a weed in my garden.

One of mine has suffered badly with her gut on and off and when it's bad (now) she eats for England and looks "off" behind. She has PSSM so gets into that circle of muscles causing gut to flare which in itself causes her to tense... And so on.

I do think a scope is worth it though because I needed omeprazole to get her on track.

Do the herbs need to be dried SEL, or can they be fed fresh?

 

[lynz88]

And so my learning curve and completely useless horse adventures continue....

Thanks for all inputs it's been very, very helpful and insightful. My mom gave me one of those herb things for Christmas and, although I am far from having a green thumb, seeing the little sprouts for my Thyme and Rosemary but not Oregano yet so will start with the whole foods. Looks cheap enough to give it a try and if it doesn't do anything for said horse, I certainly like those herbs and cook with them all the time!