VERY DIFFICULT POST ?

[Goldenstar]

This is a really relevant point. They have to be fit to travel.

They do need to be fit to travel and no reputable transporter will take they feel is not
SM have you tried the inhaled steroids on him ?
And has fungal infection been ruled out ?

 

[Shysmum]

I have a few months in hand to see how things pan out. Just had a row with hubs over it, all very difficult ?

 

[Shysmum]

They do need to be fit to travel and no reputable transporter will take they feel is not
SM have you tried the inhaled steroids on him ?
And has fungal infection been ruled out ?

Hi, no I've said to the vet I don't want to go down the nebulizer route, I feel that is a step too far for some reason. He gets the cortisone shots and powder when really bad. Not tested for fungal infection, but would that come and go like Shys symptoms do ?

 

[Shysmum]

Interesting point about transporting a possibly poorly horse, which may or may not be I'll on the journey ?

 

[Goldenstar]

SM there’s a form of steroids that come in a preloaded inhaled delivery system I have used them twice they are easy to use and both times I have used them they where highly effective .
It’s not cheap but it may give a way of controlling symptoms during a journey you give them twice daily .
I can’t remember the name I will try to find the bill from last time .
If you get a small transporter to do a van type pick up and you follow then you could medicate during the journey .
You would need to trial a course where you are to see if it works .
I also think you need to research how people proceed with a planned PTS in France there will be a way .
A more compliant vet may exist .
I don’t understand your reluctance to use inhaled medication with is safe and very effective for treating wind issues .

Ha, just found it it’s the Aservo Equihaler we used really impressive both times .

 

[Tiddlypom]

Why on earth would you not at least try a nebuliser on such a sick horse?

It might just be the answer, but if you don't try it you won't know.

 

[Red-1]

I was very reluctant to use inhaled steroids on Rigs, due to his medical history. Sadly the powder (I presume you mean Ventipulmin) only works short term. My vet said that, after 2 tubs, they need a year off it.

I needn't have worried, the inhaler quickly brought his symptoms under control. He started with 6 puffs twice a day, with permission to go higher, but that sorted it. He was soon down to 4 twice a day, then 2 twice a day and now 2, once a day. In a week or so, I believe he will be off it again.

It transformed him from panting to normal in a few days.

Rigs has his own account at the local pharmacy LOL.

 

[palo1]

@Shysmum - I understand your reluctance to try inhaled steroids but really they can transform a respiratory issue. They can be used both to relieve instant trouble and to get rid of inflammation which is causing the problem. For some horses this is the only route that will work but they can have a really amazing impact. I really think inhaled or nebulised (just a different delivery system) steroids are worth trying; they may be able to help your horse in the short and/or long term. I would not hesitate to use inhaled or nebulised steroids again having used them on my own horse and a friend of mine has happily used them with her 4* eventer when needed (there are specific withdrawal periods of course). Easy to use, not vastly expensive and can really help. Perhaps it is worth thinking about for Shy.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Ventipulmin is a preventative, and no use at all when in respiratory distress. Inhaled steroids are effective, and the steroid dose is far lower than the injected route Mine would not tolerate nebuliser or spin inhaler and in the end had to be cornered and a couple of doses fired straight up each nostril. Sometimes the actual trigger for an attack is never found, but getting a respiratory compromised horse to respond to treatment is difficult. Take your time and assess what is going on in front of you. You will make the right call.

 

[Goldenstar]

Personally I don’t think I will condemn a vet for a thinking PTS is excessive when steroids have not been tried .

 

[nagblagger]

[QUOTE="Goldenstar, post: ]Personally I don’t think I will condemn a vet for a thinking PTS is excessive when steroids have not been tried .

I sot of agree, but at the end of the day is it just prolonging the inevitable and should they listen to the owner?
My friends horse has been on nebulisers and was going to pts when i contacted Shy for her 'recipe', this horse has now had an extra year of life (so far) so i know Shy would have tried everything to prevent an attack.

I had a similar conversation with my vet last week, who has fully supported my decision, but if she hadn't i would have been more stressed/confused about the decision and it did influence my OH who now supports me. (happening on tues). I am disappointed that the vet did not engage in the conversation, listening to your fears, and having an informed decision reinforced.

I agree you have a couple of months to make a decision, either way, to risk travelling him in case it is the environment and to gain support from your OH.

You will have my support whatever you decide.

 

[honetpot]

Did you mean you seek quality of life rather than quantity of life?

Correct. Dyslexia, trait, swap words, or can not read what you have written. Edited.

 

[AmyMay]

Personally I don’t think I will condemn a vet for a thinking PTS is excessive when steroids have not been tried .

I’d assumed you’d tried an inhaler. Whatever your thoughts on them, you absolutely must have some to help with severe attacks when they happen?

Thinking of my mother who had COPD the relief was fairly instant and reduced the sense of panic of not being able to breathe.

I’m afraid I feel that not to do so is almost immoral. But if you absolutely won’t then you should have him destroyed at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Personally I don’t think I will condemn a vet for a thinking PTS is excessive when steroids have not been tried .

I must agree, I don't understand the objection to using a nebuliser. If Shy were mine, I would give him the one last chance of using a nebuliser and if that doesn't show any/sufficient improvement, I would pts before returning to UK. I am sorry that you are in this position, OP.

 

[Red-1]

[QUOTE="Goldenstar, post: ]Personally I don’t think I will condemn a vet for a thinking PTS is excessive when steroids have not been tried .

I sot of agree, but at the end of the day is it just prolonging the inevitable and should they listen to the owner?
My friends horse has been on nebulisers and was going to pts when i contacted Shy for her 'recipe', this horse has now had an extra year of life (so far) so i know Shy would have tried everything to prevent an attack.


You will have my support whatever you decide.

I guess death is the only inevitable thing we all face, come to it.

I tried the recipe Shy's Mum recommended on Rigsby and it had no effect at all. Ventipulmin had minor effect if he had full dose twice a day, but that soon wore off. The inhaled steroids were a last ditch and I pre-agreed with the vet that if it brought lami on for him, as I feared, it was the end of the road.

TBH, I had nothing to lose as, in the end, he coughed so much I thought he would faint. He staggered sideways trying to catch his breath. Just the once, I hasten to add, he was relatively comfortale between asthma attacks and had the vet the next day for the inhaler. Inhaled steroids were the only sensible option.

It was within a few days that he was pretty much back to normal. We never even got onto the top dose. He would be off it altogether already, hut he is back in ridden work and, just when working, he needs the extra help. I only work him as it means he can have extra haylage. When he was turned out daily, he didn't need to work as he was moving more (he has moved to dry lot turnout for winter so is now working again).

The inhalers are not so expensive and can be given with a baby spacer at £10.

I do 'get' the resistance. I spent so long jumping through hoops to ensure Rigs didn't have another lami attack, if felt 'wrong' to do something to risk it. |But, when it is that or PTS, I thought it was worth doing. As it is, he was returned to a happy boy.

That said, with a horse who regularly gets asthma, I would not berate the owner for PTS. I am just a little confused as I do believe the owner loves the horse. Trying inhalers, with the small risk that involves, doesn't seem to have a down side if the alternative is PTS immediately. If Shy isn't improved enough to travel, at least you know you tried what you could.

 

[ycbm]

I have a few months in hand to see how things pan out. Just had a row with hubs over it, all very difficult ?

SM, I don't feel you do have a few months in hand. I'm really sorry but you describe having to hose thick encrusted sweat off a horse who is sweating because he can't breathe. For me, I'm afraid, that's an îmmediate welfare issue and he should be PTS unless something can be found very soon that helps him.

As an asthmatic on the mild end of the scale I know only too well how frightening it is not to be able to breath. What that's like for a horse who can't understand and needs to feel he can run to feel safe doesn't bear thinking about.
.

 

[palo1]

I understand that inhaled or nebulised steroids have a much lower risk of lami; they are directed where needed and have very, very little systemic effect. For my mare, who has mild allergic asthma I have found that inhalers at a low dose are more cost effective and much easier than the worry and trying of expensive supplements. A very low dose (below that of a human adult lol) really makes a difference if my horse is showing symptoms. I know that my horse is mildly affected but I really hate to think that she is experiencing any discomfort due to a respiratory allergy; I find it very upsetting tbh. I understand too the concern about respiratory issues and I think it is absolutely fair to PTS a horse that is struggling without relief available. If I couldn't or wouldn't use inhaled steroids I do think PTS would be a perfectly kind action. I am so sorry you are in this situation.

 

[Shysmum]

Personally I don’t think I will condemn a vet for a thinking PTS is excessive when steroids have not been tried .

He has had steroids, both by mouth and via injection. Both with the warning they may cause laminitis ?

 

[Shysmum]

[QUOTE="Goldenstar, post: ]Personally I don’t think I will condemn a vet for a thinking PTS is excessive when steroids have not been tried .

I sot of agree, but at the end of the day is it just prolonging the inevitable and should they listen to the owner?
My friends horse has been on nebulisers and was going to pts when i contacted Shy for her 'recipe', this horse has now had an extra year of life (so far) so i know Shy would have tried everything to prevent an attack.

I had a similar conversation with my vet last week, who has fully supported my decision, but if she hadn't i would have been more stressed/confused about the decision and it did influence my OH who now supports me. (happening on tues). I am disappointed that the vet did not engage in the conversation, listening to your fears, and having an informed decision reinforced.

I agree you have a couple of months to make a decision, either way, to risk travelling him in case it is the environment and to gain support from your OH.

You will have my support whatever you decide.

Thankyou xxx

 

[Shysmum]

SM, I don't feel you do have a few months in hand. I'm really sorry but you describe having to hose thick encrusted sweat off a horse who is sweating because he can't breathe. For me, I'm afraid, that's an îmmediate welfare issue and he should be PTS unless something can be found very soon that helps him.

As an asthmatic on the mild end of the scale I know only too well how frightening it is not to be able to breath. What that's like for a horse who can't understand and needs to feel he can run to feel safe doesn't bear thinking about.
.

Shy has been totally normal today, basking in the sunshine, eating grass. Not a hint of a problem.

 

[Shysmum]

Shy has been totally normal today, basking in the sunshine, eating grass. Not a hint of a problem. But when it comes on its fierce. I will never be able to ride him again, I accept that.

 

[AmyMay]

.

 

[Palindrome]

Personally I don’t think I will condemn a vet for a thinking PTS is excessive when steroids have not been tried .

I don't know, they would not think twice about a horse being sent to slaughter but are very difficult on PTS. It's now official that you can't have a horse signed out of the consumption chain on the passport unless medication that affects the meat long term has been given (my French vet refused to sign my horse out for this reason).
Hunts aren't widespread and I don't think it would be legal to shout an animal so vet is the only solution when you have an animal in distress I think.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

He has had steroids, both by mouth and via injection. Both with the warning they may cause laminitis ?

Our vet said that there is actually only a small risk, much smaller than was previously thought. Certainly our mare didn't succumb to laminitis, even though she was also being treated for Cushings.

 

[ycbm]

Shy has been totally normal today, basking in the sunshine, eating grass. Not a hint of a problem. But when it comes on its fierce. I will never be able to ride him again, I accept that.

I think most of us probably thought you were describing a day after day situation. I'm glad he was comfy today.
.

 

[HelenBack]

Just to reiterate what other people have said, I do think it's worth you trying inhaled steroids, either via a nebuliser or a baby spacer. They worked so much better for my horse than oral steroids and my understanding is the risk of laminitis is massively decreased as the drugs go straight to the lungs (which also makes it more effective than other options).

We went for the baby spacer and inhaler option and it was really cheap and once my horse got used to it I could do it in the middle of the field without a headcollar, and he's an over-reactive prat when he wants to be! He's since been diagnosed with Cushing's and I don't think twice about giving him a course of inhalers if he has a flare up. I really would urge you to consider this option before giving up hope altogether.

 

[palo1]

Just to reiterate what other people have said, I do think it's worth you trying inhaled steroids, either via a nebuliser or a baby spacer. They worked so much better for my horse than oral steroids and my understanding is the risk of laminitis is massively decreased as the drugs go straight to the lungs (which also makes it more effective than other options).

We went for the baby spacer and inhaler option and it was really cheap and once my horse got used to it I could do it in the middle of the field without a headcollar, and he's an over-reactive prat when he wants to be! He's since been diagnosed with Cushing's and I don't think twice about giving him a course of inhalers if he has a flare up. I really would urge you to consider this option before giving up hope altogether.

Yes, the difference in effectiveness of inhaled/nebulised steroids vs injected or oral steroids is very marked. Better for the horse too as inhaled steroids get to the problem quickly and can genuinely work to eliminate them if a long enough course is prescribed. Often a short course will appear to sort the problem but any remaining inflammation or allergen can flare up again fairly quickly. Sometimes a longer course is needed to get the horse back to a good place and then the flare ups are far less often and far less severe. Sometimes! My vet told me not to bother with oral steroids and is only prepared to inject (eg Dex) as an emergency. I have become very relaxed about using an inhaler tbh even though it felt like a bad thing to start with. We are on a child's dose when needed.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Have you given antihistamines?

 

[Goldenstar]

The lami risk is very very very low for inhaled steroids .

 

[PurBee]

Im sorry to hear about Shy.
As his symptoms appear sporadic - acute attacks and being completely fine. I wonder, as mentioned already, if another location may help him, as cause hasn’t yet been found.

Often we read on threads that someone’s horse was struggling with something seemingly chronic, with unknown cause, only for the horse to recover completely with a yard move.
How long has Shy had respiratory issues? Has he ever had a few months away at another yard and be fine?

As you are moving internationally, and would move Shy with you if he was healthier, have you considered boarding both Shy and Pepsi at a retirement livery/grass livery near to you now, for a few weeks/months, as you organise your move, as a test to see how he does at a different yard? If he does well, improves, then you can consider a yard move is better for him, and do an international move, with stops, with both horses.
If he doesn’t improve, the difficult decision seems inevitable.

It’s a last ditch test to see if current yard/environment , for whatever reason, is contributing/causative of his respiratory issues. He’s dear to you obviously, and if you really want to try everything, that’s the last thing i’d try, before making a final decision.