Very difficult situation

[Penny Less]

Right this will be a bit of a saga..

I have a 16 2 on loan, non ridden, companion. Two people own him. Well one paid for him for the other, the one that didnt pay has the passport, passport has apparently never been changed over from two owners back !
I have given notice that I cannot keep him. There is now a dispute between the two owners, who are no longer speaking to each other about his future !
He has behavioural and physical problems. The behavioural problems I have now been made aware are much more dangerous than I was told when I took him on. One owner now has apparently said to the other she is washing her hands of him but is threatening to have him shot and "chopped up and buried in a forest"!! The other wants a vet to have the say, but she cant cope with him either but doesnt want him put down . I have had two differing stories about him all too complicated to relate here.
They are both arguing about who owns him. I have said that I cannot carry on looking after him and they will have to sort it out.

Any advice. I have said that him being put down is not the worst thing. I am worried I am just going to be stuck with him, he is at livery and I am physically not able to carry on with him. I actually am quite fond of him but would never have taken him on if Id been told the truth

 

[ihatework]

If it came to it, would you be willing to arrange PTS?

Perhaps if the owners split the cost you could take care of the deed?

 

[cauda equina]

Poor horse
Would your own vet support the PTS decision, and would the owner who 'wants a vet to have the say' respect your vet's opinion?
PTS does sound the best option, sadly

 

[luckyoldme]

If PTS is the best option for this horse and owner 1 really truly feels that way...then perhaps you could try to persuade them that owner 2 might feel better about it if they could be more understanding of owner 2 s more sensitive nature.

 

[LaurenBay]

I'd ring both of them and have a calm as long chat and propose to have the Horse PTS at your place. Perhaps they can split it 2 ways? sounds like its the best option for the Horse.

 

[Penny Less]

I dont think they will agree between them. I am willing to have the deed done if they pay all costs.
Im wondering about the legalities of it all as the passport is obviously not correct, I know this isnt proof of ownership. I
assume someone will have to apply for another first before horse can be PTs and taken away ? Also as the horse was bought as a gift and the "giftee" and purchaser dont agree, who is the actual owner, purchaser says she has paperwork.

Im appalled as I obviously have no bulls*t detector, I take things that I am told at face value, should know better, but I tend to be straightforward about things personally.

I am tempted to say sell him to me for £1 and i will sort it out, but cant really afford to pay for it as only lost my horse las summer with all associated expenses. This is me with my hard head on, unfortunately I dont have a hard heart.

 

[ester]

How does he have 2 owners if only one of them paid for him?

 

[poiuytrewq]

You don’t need a passport to pts. At least I’ve never even been asked to show one (personally I think this is wrong, I think horses should be scanned and checked chip numbers before pts)
I’ve had both vet and hunt and found the same.

 

[Penny Less]

They are friends ( or were now ) one bought him for the other to try and get him right. Im trying to get some sense out of the whole thing. Two very different stories emerging. Can the person who bought him apply for a new passport if she cant get the other back? Tried to get info online but not much help, they refer to the NED database which doesnt exist. Im worried Im going to be stuck with him without being able to decide his future.
Got meeting with giftee tomorrow, will have to see what she comes up with.
poiutrewq, when I had my horse pts the disposal chap asked for the passport. cant remember if the vet did.

 

[AmyMay]

Is this the only horse you have?

 

[Penny Less]

sorry amymay how is that relevant ?

 

[Alibear]

If they can't get their act together in the next day or so, I think I'd just say I wish to end the loan and let them sort it from there.

 

[AmyMay]

sorry amymay how is that relevant ?

Because if it’s the only horse you have (on that yard), you simply tell them the date that your agreement ends (and YO obviously), pack up your stuff and leave them to it once that date is reached.

 

[Penny Less]

Oh right. Yes that is my plan, YO would not be pleased. Hope we can sort something out before then
Alibear see OP, I am ending the loan !

 

[AmyMay]

Oh right. Yes that is my plan, YO would not be pleased. Hope we can sort something out before then

Make sure the YO has up to date numbers for the owners when you give him your months notice.

 

[JanetGeorge]

What a mes to find yourself in. Has your vet seen the horse whie you've had him. The fact you've paid them is proof enough, I'd say. The person who bought him could apply for a replacement passport - but it's a bit pintless. The odd 'meat man' will ask for a passport - have never had my local hunt ask for one. Most charge around £150 for despatch and removal - which is a lot cheaper than a month's ivery. Write to both of them (recorded delivery) and tell them if the horse is not removed by ...... he will be PTS on your vet's advice.

 

[Velcrobum]

You don’t need a passport to pts. At least I’ve never even been asked to show one (personally I think this is wrong, I think horses should be scanned and checked chip numbers before pts)
I’ve had both vet and hunt and found the same.

Likewise the last one being last August.

OP if "the owners" do not take him back and he is PTS on veterinary advice you can pursue costs via small claims court. You do need to have written evidence you have terminated the loan.

 

[chancing]

if the horse is going to suffer by being passed pillar to post and with an uncertain future and given the fact that three of you have decided you cant keep/manage him i would ring the hunt and have him PTS. Otherwise i can give you a number of a fantastic lady who would do it without a passport if you explained circumstances and she is very kind and professional.

Realistically i think you will need one or both owners permission to do this, i would say on my vets advice i think this is the best thing, or i would say if this is not what you would like me to do then the loan ends of x date and you walk away, but with a full explanation to your YO previously - you cannot leave the horse with her in the lurch if the two owners arent prepared to look after and or pay for him.

personally i would ring them both and have a discussion and offer the ultimatum of the horse needs to be pts and the cost will be covered by you both split 50/50.

good luck - not a nice situation to be in

 

[Nativelover]

Who did you arrange the loan with?? Who signed the contract with you?
If it is one person, I’d deal with them.
If not then I’d give them both the same ultimatum, a date to collect the horse by or he will be put to sleep on the basis that neither is willing to take responsibility for the horse and you can no longer keep him, pts being in his best interests given his difficult history.
I’m afraid that you’re just going to have to be tough but fair by giving them sufficient time to organise somewhere to put him.
Good luck with it, what an awful situation to find yourself in.
Let us know how you get on.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I am not sure of the legalities of putting another person's horse down without their permission. That might well be the right things to do for the horse but given the changing stories etc I would tread very carefully. Last thing you need is suddenly to be accused of 'murdering' someone's 'much loved horse'. Wasn't there a huge issue a few years back of a horse, considered dangerous, who had more or less been abandoned being PTS and all hell breaking loose on social media?

I think you need legal advice. I suspect the process will need to be: give notice, end loan, followed by the YO serving an abandonment notice. I would do nothing until YO or you are legally recognised as the owner. I imagine whoever paid will be legally considered the owner at the moment unless there is paperwork to the contrary but you certainly are not the owner and need to protect yourself.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Incidentally I don't think you need to give a month's notice given they failed to disclose his issues so will be in breach of the agreement. Most loan agreements allow for early termination if problems arise. So I'd give notice, effective immediately to speed things up a bit.

 

[AmyMay]

Incidentally I don't think you need to give a month's notice given they failed to disclose his issues so will be in breach of the agreement. Most loan agreements allow for early termination if problems arise. So I'd give notice, effective immediately to speed things up a bit.

Possibly not. But it’s reasonable and fair, not least to the YO.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Not in this instance I don't think. The owners want nothing to do with the horse. So the horse will be staying on the yard anyway and owners will need to be served with an abandonment notice before OP can do anything further. All waiving notice means is that the process that will lead to a transfer of ownership can start now instead of in a months time. Of course if I have misjudged these owners and they have plans for the horse, or are willing to discuss options then the OP is free to extend the notice period. But I suspect that won't happen from what has been said.

 

[AmyMay]

An abandonment notice has nothing to do with the OP.

She simply needs to give notice tomorrow and let them get on with it.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I would also be very cautious of telling them that he needs PTS on your vet's advice unless this statement is factual and your vet would be prepared to put that in writing if things get nasty further down the line - which very often in these muddled cases they can and do.

Give notice to end loan and also tell them you are giving notice at the yard and at X date the poor horse is their problem not yours, and out of courtesy to yard owner I would also tell them exactly what and why you are doing this. Or if they tell you that you can have him PTS do not do so unless they give that to you in writing.

 

[AmyMay]

Spot on Mrs Jingle.

 

[eggs]

Was the loan agreement signed by just one owner or did both sign it?

If it was just signed by one then I would revert back to them.

 

[Penny Less]

Both owners signed it. I would not have him PTS unless I owned him. I have not had my vet to him.
Yard Owner is aware of the situation. Hopefully someone will see sense

 

[Ambers Echo]

An abandonment notice has nothing to do with the OP.

She simply needs to give notice tomorrow and let them get on with it.

Yes you could do that too. The option I was suggesting would avoid leaving the horse ending up being the YOs problem.. which is what it would probably become. I had assumed OP would carry on caring for the horse as she is doing now while the legalities are sorted out by YO. And that once YO owned horse it would be PTS. But maybe I have misunderstood something!

 

[flying_high]

Do either of the owners have land / stables / facilities? I think this might be a case for returning him where you picked him up from. With whatever notice period is in the contract. How long have you had him?

If less than the notice period, it is a very strong case for returning him.

I don't need details but are you certain the behavioural issues and physical issues are the horse and not linked to a change in home / yard? Some horses change massively at different yards and change back when move.