Nt9
Well-Known Member
No more useful advice than you have been given, but can I just say sorry you find yourself in this difficult position it must be really hard and I hope you find a solution. Lots of virtual hugs.
Very difficult situation
- Thread starter Penny Less
- Start date
Owners dont have their own land. I believe horses behavioural issues are linked to his physical problems, which is why he was retired in the first place. Issues manifested while ridden and being handled . We will see what happens today.
i didnt want to own another horse so thought loaning would avoid difficult problems like pts or rehoming, WRONG
i didnt want to own another horse so thought loaning would avoid difficult problems like pts or rehoming, WRONG
Well one owner arrived has washed her hands of the horse and told the other owner ! They both want a different outcome for the animal, one thinks PTS is the best way to go which I think is right, the other wants vets opinion, but doesnt seem to want to pay for itand thinks he can be rehomed, but I dont know who she thinks would want it. I was the only iddiot because he reminded me of my old wonderful lad and I wasnt ready to give up horses . I have said that at the end of the notice period I am going to either walk away or transport him back to one owner and leave him in the field.(hoping they havent moved yards in the meantime ) One apparently put up the cash for the horse and says she has the bill, the other says she signed the contract for him. I am going to demand to see actual paperwork. Poor lad
Either both people are lying to me or one is about his background. I am chanelling Zen at the moment
Its not always the loanee who is not looking after or treating the horse right is it.
Either both people are lying to me or one is about his background. I am chanelling Zen at the moment
Its not always the loanee who is not looking after or treating the horse right is it.
jules9203
Well-Known Member
I've never been asked by vet or hunt for a passport. I have had 6 (not all mine!) pts in the last 4 years.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Was he at that yard when you took the horse on?
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Why not deal with the one who thinks pts is the right thing to do, organise it at your yard, get the co-owner to right something which says that you have their permission to pts and then let the 'owners' sort it out between themselves. The cost of pts and removal is less than £200 locally, even if you have to pay it, that is not so many weeks livery, which I assume you would be paying otherwise.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I don’t think OP can leave the horse on the yard without the yoer coming after OP For the cost, the yoers contract is with OP
Lois Lame
Well-Known Member
This owner is living in dreamland.
I would not put the horse down as I would not believe it could be done without some problem arising from that owner.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
As a last resort if no agreement to return it is achieved, I would be tempted to do the right thing by the horse and put it down. If the owner who does not want it put down complained, I would apologise profusely for my mistake in not understanding their intentions. In law, it would be an act of criminal damage, but the value of the 'property' (horse) damaged is nil, and the confusion between the two owners makes it unlikely that anyone would be able to persuade the CPS to prosecute a criminal case There is is no compensation in UK civil law for emotional upset, and there would be no monetary loss, so there's nothing the owner could sue for either, I think.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
AmyMay
Situation normal
Don’t put it down op, that is just awful advice.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
One of the owners has explicitly said she does not want the horse putting down and is considering rehoming options and/or getting a vet to see him. OP has no right to put the horse down because she think owner is unlikely to find a home or to follow through on the vet. Thankfully from all her posts it does not sound like she's daft enough to just take matters into her own hands and euthanize someone else's horse against their express wishes!
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Also why are so many people assuming PTS is the only option? Maybe it is but there has been no detail on what these behavioural and physical issues are, what treatment or management options have been tried etc
Imagine thread where someone writes I was gifted a horse who had to be retired because he had some physical issues. But he was field sound and happy so I loaned him out as a companion. Loaner said he was dangerous and should be PTS. I did not agree but while I was deciding what to do she had him put down against my wishes....
Imagine thread where someone writes I was gifted a horse who had to be retired because he had some physical issues. But he was field sound and happy so I loaned him out as a companion. Loaner said he was dangerous and should be PTS. I did not agree but while I was deciding what to do she had him put down against my wishes....
Lois Lame
Well-Known Member
The thing is, it's not the OP's horse to put down.
If one of the owner's wants to then make a song and dance about it, what happens then?
If one of the owner's wants to then make a song and dance about it, what happens then?
fawaz
Well-Known Member
I don't think it works like that and it would be a pretty crappy thing to do! The contract for agistment is between you and the yard owner. You (not the horse) have signed the contract agreeing to their services so its not just a matter of giving notice and abandoning the horse. The yard owner will not have any rights to claim a lein for unpaid agistment etc from the other two people as the YO has no contract with them, it will be you being taken to court for any money owing as you agreed to the services. Buy the horse for $1 and get the local hunt to come take it away. It shouldn't cost you a cent. No reason to get a vet to come euthanase and pay expensive disposal costs.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
One owner wants to PTS. The other wants a vet but won't pay. The loaner says, and I take her word for it, that the horse is dangerous.
The owners, atm, are not agreeing to take it back.
Sorry, seems like a no brainer to me when there are so many non-dangerous horses in the world that need good homes.
..
D66
Well-Known Member
I’d tell the owner who doesn’t want to pts that they have responsibility for the horse from tomorrow. If they can re-home fine, if not paying for livery might focus their mind.
Send them both a letter saying you will reclaim livery costs through the small claims court - it might be worth paying a solicitor to write the letter.
Send them both a letter saying you will reclaim livery costs through the small claims court - it might be worth paying a solicitor to write the letter.
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Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
But it is not the OP's horse!! Putting down someone else's horse is pretty extreme and nothing in the description of the horse suggests a level of dangerousness or suffering that would justify doing that on her own initiative. Owners not agreeing to take it back at this stage is not the same thing as notice expiring and horse not having been taken back. And even then there is a legal process to go through before OP can make her own decisions about the horse's future.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Excuse me, but you asked why people thought that PTS was the only option, and I explained why if the owners won't take it back , I thought it was the only option.
And I already explained above what I thought the likely legal outcome would be - nothing - if the horse was to PTS with the permission of only one owner out of two.
Personally, I would not allow myself to get stuck paying livery fees for a dangerous horse that I've been lied to about. I would give notice that he will be put down in four weeks time (or maybe only one, given the cover up) unless he is collected. And then do it. As much for the horse's sake as my own.
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Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Forgive me but are you not suggesting putting the horse down against the wishes of the owner here? PTS is perfectly valid option but to do that without permission is extreme and only justifiable if there were no other options because horse was so dangerous or suffering so much. There is no evidence if that from what has been posted. No vet has even seen the horse yet.
The OP should not PTS until the horses is legally hers which she can achieve through serving an abandonment notice either herself or via YO. Or buying the horse for £1 if they will sell.
Alternatively she could take the horse back herself and just leave it on the owners land or yard - but that does not secure the horse's future which is why that is not what I would do personally. I would give notice effective immediately either to start the process of having this poor horse removed from the owners care OR to focus the owners minds on sorting something out in the meantime if they don't want to lose the right to make decisions themselves.
But just giving the horse back us also reasonable - after all one reason people loan is to avoid this kind of scenario. But even if the OP can legally walk away at this point it sounds like she is emotionally invested in the horse so just leaving it in a field somewhere may not be so easy in practice as it sounds in principle.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
what other option is left if the owners won't take it back? Even if you go through the bother of an abandonment notice (which may not be possible when you are actually in contact with the owners) and seize it, or force her in some way to sell it to you for a pound, it's still against her wishes.
You seem to be suggesting that one solution is to dump the horse on a third party livery owner? The owners don't appear to own the yard the horse came from, from what I have read.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
But one owner wants to pts, rather than having to take the horse back to a livery yard. The co-owners don't have their own land, so where would OP take it, if she were to 'return' it? If neither owner will come and collect the horse or tell OP where to take it, I suggest that she works with the owner who wants pts, gets that person's agreement/instructions in writing and goes ahead.
Contrary to an assertion further upthread, no-one in UK will pts a horse foc these days but hunt/equine crem will charge about £200, which will work out much less expensive than involving a vet.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
If I where the yard owner I would be furious you get yourself into a mess and then dump it on me to sort .
I would be billing you all the costs and taking you court if you did not pay .
The Yoer has no contract with the owners here contract is with you .
I would be also every single yard in the area knew exactly what had happened .
pansymouse
Well-Known Member
Send a recorded delivery letter to both owners giving notice that the horse will be PTS on x date (about four weeks notice is reasonable) unless they remove it prior to that date. Book the vet/hunt to do the deed on the date you give and confirm in the letter that the booking has been made (don't say with who so the non-PTS party cannot cancel without making alternative arrangements for the horse).
It is far more compassionate to PTS than condemn the poor animal to prospect of a life being passed from pillar to post.
I have a feeling you may have to bear the cost of PTS but it's worth requesting payment from the owners.
It is far more compassionate to PTS than condemn the poor animal to prospect of a life being passed from pillar to post.
I have a feeling you may have to bear the cost of PTS but it's worth requesting payment from the owners.
Wind your neck in Goldenstar. I have given the YO the heads up, she is fully aware. How have I got myself in this mess, I signed a contract in good faith. I have to end contract I am giving two months notice, instead of the month agreed. I am giving myself some leverage for negotiation hopefully with more success than the P M
Fawaz I see you are not in this country, things are not as cheap as you image, my last horse cost me nearly £600 for vet and removal.
Fawaz I see you are not in this country, things are not as cheap as you image, my last horse cost me nearly £600 for vet and removal.
Ambers Echo, I have not said I would put the horse down without the owners consent. I have not given all the information I have about the horses behaviour and do not intend to on here.
I have posted for peoples advice as to how to resolve the situation and have received same, thank you
Also owner is now not answering phone or texts !
pansymouse
Well-Known Member
Agggggggggggh! I really feel for you fighting hard to do the right thing for you and the horse. I think it's Record Delivery letter time. These people need to made to stop abdicating responsibility and start making decisions/arrangements.
Asha
Well-Known Member
What a mess, feel for you OP. If I was in your shoes I would immediately contact BHS legal team or an equine lawyer. Get some advice, and get things in writing to both owners. I certainly wouldn't be giving them 2 months notice when you only have to give 1. They have basically passed you a problem neither of them really wants to sort out. You are going to have force them to address this, and make it crystal clear that you will claim all costs from them both through the appropriate channels.
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
jeez, some people really are the pits. hope you get it sorted PL.