Vet Monopolies

WrongLeg said:

Our study shows that for food , the animal fed with home made food (based on similar food as the family) reach an average age of 13.1 years, as the animals fed with canned industrial food, reach an average age of 10.4 years. The animals fed with mixed food (home made plus canned food) reach an average age of 11.4 years.
The difference between the two extremes amounts to more than 32 months, i.e. close to 3 years. This great difference shows that food is a major and determinant factor for the dogs' life expectancy. Giving it home made food is a guarantee for better protection, well being and longer life expectancy.
What makes the difference between the two types of food? (home made and industrial canned food) It is the basic quality of the ingredients used ( quality of the basic protein, quantity and faculty to assimilate vitamins and minerals when using natural products...) the importance of physical or chemicals treatments applied during the fabrication process. Indeed, canned-food processing requires various physical treatments: ( high temperature, lyophilisation, extrusion, flaking) anda l s o chemicals treatments :(hydrolysis, coloring, additives.. ....)
It is clear from our analvsis that the implication ofthe proprietor of the dog in the selection of food served to the animal is of the greatest importance and that the life expectancy for his dog is directly related with the quality of the food.”
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This analysis is 20 years old (with the data being collected in 1998) and the pet food industry has changed quite a bit since then.

Just anecdotally, I had a 14 year old Lab, a 21 year old cat and my OH's family currently has a 15 year old lab - all fed commercial pet food their whole lives so I always tend towards feeding what is best for the animal in front of you (and what they will eat!). There's so much work behind the scenes on pet food these days.
 
holeymoley said:
I'm up in Scotland and found this too, it was actually easier to buy it straight from them. I think delivery was £8 which is not bad, even try and split with another livery. Or I think if you buy one of their balancers you get free delivery.

Funnily enough now the demand has increased and I have a supplier 5 minutes away now!

In terms of the beet comparison, there are some that you can get similiar. Dengie Alfalfa Pellets are more or less the same as SS Lucie Nuts( not the organice or fibre ones).
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£8 is very reasonable.
I think that it was around £45 for delivery to Highland Postcodes.
A downside to the Highlands, at least we have good hacking & lots of hills to keep ourselves & our horses fit.
 
reynold said:
Maybe change is going to be forced on vets.....

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I was listening to this on the news. My small vet is a Medivet practice and they're already transparent on their pricing. When I was going through the mill with Willy, we went through the quote which was itemised. Same for the referral hospital (Aura and Fitzpatrick). The cap would be welcome of course, but the corporates will find a way to grab the money back, I'm sure.

I should add that I'm lucky to have excellent small animal vets, despite it being a corporate. They have quite the following in my area, and I see them recommended by lots of other clients on FB, so I'm not an outlier. It's the reason I stay with them, despite the limited facilities. I did move to an independent practice a long time ago (for the excellent facilities in-house), who botched so many things with my three cats at the time (including a traumatic botched euthanasia for my poor old cat), I went scurrying back to Medivet.

My equine practice is now VetPartners, but I haven't seen a difference in charging structure (yet!). I have noticed that they have a higher staff turnover, these days, but saying that, I've been happy with the service given by each vet. I wonder if it's due to the wages not being competitive, especially given that we're in the Surrey Hills.
 
reynold said:
Maybe change is going to be forced on vets.....

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And high time, too. Was talking to a young vet whose practice was taken over by a conglomerate last year - the pressure to advise and push additional procedures, and to prolong what is very clearly a ‘hopeless’ case - completely shameless and brazen.
I know a couple who were charged £30 just to weigh their elderly and placid pet cat - cat had a routine consultation (and that’s not cheap, before any treatments) to review its long term meds for kidney issue (for which meds the practice price was three times that from on line pharmacy; the cost of their routine vet prescription was another £32.00, but still cheaper than buying these drugs off the vet); they asked to buy a wormer while they were there.
Vet said yes, but we now have to charge £30 to assess his worming status, so they said yes, fine, thinking maybe a saliva test or wipe round his bottom or maybe bloods. Oh no, vet just put cat on the scales, made a note on his record, shot an (expensive!) worming pill down his throat, and handed him back. That was it! The ‘feline assessment’ was simply how heavy is he for the quantity of wormer required - gobsmacked, thirty quid to stand him on the scales, on top of all the rest….
Anyway, they are now with a different, non-conglomerate, practice, despite having always used that one, and might even be able to afford a holiday on the strength of that….
 
Agree that they will just claw back the money in other ways.

Our equine vets are VetPartners. I have noticed big changes since becoming corporate. Out of hours call out fees have gone up massively and there is now an extra "emergency' call out fee even during the normal working day! Now, if you want a same day appointment, you need to say it isn't an emergency.

The vets always used to ring you to check all was OK but now they tell you they will call and then never bother.

I have had two instances where I have asked for details of the costs for the different treatment options, it has been like drawing blood from a stone! Weeks to get this information!
 
I have recently changed vets having been with the previous one for 30 years. My whippet is 15.5yrs old and has two heart conditions, lousy teeth and pancreatic issues all of these he has had for at least 5-7 years. He is on Vetmedin as one of his heart drugs. I was paying the original vets £70+ for 30 tablets. He is on Famotidine for his stomach issues - £36.60 for 30 tablets. I now get a written prescription for the Vetmedin and now get 90 tablets for £35. My new vet has just prescribed the famotidine 100 tablets for £54. The previous vets insisted that I had a heart scan done £1200-1500 - Snip is 15.5 I know he has two heart conditions why do I need to put him through a scan? What would it achieve apart from ticking a box for that weeks target. The next conversation started he teeth are bad, yes they are I know but he is 15.5yrs old and he has two heart conditions do you really think its in his best interests to give him a GA for a 4 hour op? The previous vets are part of one of the 6 target driven cartels whereas my new vet is an independent farm and small animal group. When she looked at Snip she said she was amazed at how well he looked for an aged whippet and his teeth are a lot better than most sight hounds half his age, she also said we don't need to scan his heart we know he has problems - why stress him? The attitude was so different - quality of life was the priority.
 
Exasperated said:
And high time, too. Was talking to a young vet whose practice was taken over by a conglomerate last year - the pressure to advise and push additional procedures, and to prolong what is very clearly a ‘hopeless’ case - completely shameless and brazen.
I know a couple who were charged £30 just to weigh their elderly and placid pet cat - cat had a routine consultation (and that’s not cheap, before any treatments) to review its long term meds for kidney issue (for which meds the practice price was three times that from on line pharmacy; the cost of their routine vet prescription was another £32.00, but still cheaper than buying these drugs off the vet); they asked to buy a wormer while they were there.
Vet said yes, but we now have to charge £30 to assess his worming status, so they said yes, fine, thinking maybe a saliva test or wipe round his bottom or maybe bloods. Oh no, vet just put cat on the scales, made a note on his record, shot an (expensive!) worming pill down his throat, and handed him back. That was it! The ‘feline assessment’ was simply how heavy is he for the quantity of wormer required - gobsmacked, thirty quid to stand him on the scales, on top of all the rest….
Anyway, they are now with a different, non-conglomerate, practice, despite having always used that one, and might even be able to afford a holiday on the strength of that….
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Sorry, eta, to be crystal clear:
this same cat, in the same consultation, with the same vet, had already been weighed, and had his heart listened to, as part of his kidney meds routine monitoring, maybe 30 seconds earlier.
The vet apparently advised that for their new policy to receive a worming tablet, there would be an initial assessment for his new electronic file, ‘feline anthelmintic assessment’, on their account, and a charge of £30 for the assessment, first; plus, obviously cost of the wormer (and everything else!). They thought the ‘assessment’ would be something like for granddaughter’s pony, FEWC, or saliva, or something - serious lack of transparency. I believe they submitted this experience to the enquiry into veterinary pricing / practises, but there are far worse.
 
TheBigPony said:
The vets always used to ring you to check all was OK but now they tell you they will call and then never bother.
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So much makes me sad, but this makes me saddest.

If you honestly think that your vets just can't be bothered to call then that is heartbreaking.

I don't want to start with the 'woe is me', just state the truth. We need time to do things like that! And we just don't have it. Last week I returned to the office every single day at least half an hour after my finish time. Every day I had at least 5 people to call back, plus numerous prescriptions to ok (yeah, sorry, we charge for that). Every single night I got home 2-3hrs (unpaid) after my scheduled work finish time.
Sometimes you just can't call everyone. Sometimes it's got to 7pm and you just need to leave and go home. I have no life, and there's no point ever making plans for the evening.

Now obviously the answer is that there should be more time in the day to ring people, but the actual visits have to take priority. The obvious solution to that is 'employ more vets', but I can't remember a time in the last 10 years that I've worked in a fully staffed practice. Independent or corporate. We are always short of vets, and always running around in circles chasing our tails. I suspect the profession will have one less vet soon as I'm old and tired and just done.

But we are never 'not bothered'. And if that's the impression that's being received then I don't mind being done.
 
Gamebird said:
So much makes me sad, but this makes me saddest.

If you honestly think that your vets just can't be bothered to call then that is heartbreaking.

I don't want to start with the 'woe is me', just state the truth. We need time to do things like that! And we just don't have it. Last week I returned to the office every single day at least half an hour after my finish time. Every day I had at least 5 people to call back, plus numerous prescriptions to ok (yeah, sorry, we charge for that). Every single night I got home 2-3hrs (unpaid) after my scheduled work finish time.
Sometimes you just can't call everyone. Sometimes it's got to 7pm and you just need to leave and go home. I have no life, and there's no point ever making plans for the evening.

Now obviously the answer is that there should be more time in the day to ring people, but the actual visits have to take priority. The obvious solution to that is 'employ more vets', but I can't remember a time in the last 10 years that I've worked in a fully staffed practice. Independent or corporate. We are always short of vets, and always running around in circles chasing our tails. I suspect the profession will have one less vet soon as I'm old and tired and just done.

But we are never 'not bothered'. And if that's the impression that's being received then I don't mind being done.
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Well, that’s fair enough, and hope you enjoy a far less stressful retirement as an individual vet, but if vet practices carry on practising in some of the questionable ways described, they’ll have a fair few less clients to support them, too.
 
I moved my greyhound from a large corp run group to a local independant practice and they are brilliant, quotes itemised, never feel pushed, answer all qustions and have the dogs best interest at heart and are caring and compasionate especially when I lost my last grey a few months ago, I had to push them for the bill 2 weeks later... They've always called to check after an op and have been welcoming with new nervvy greyhound that i can pop her in to get used to them. Their website has pricing and good info on it and I am pleased to see they have expanded too, they do all their out of hours stuff too, are they the cheapest no but their care is incredible value all considered - there are some very good practices out there already. The vets at prev practice were caring but you could tell they were under pressure from above for profitability sadly and I feel for them.
 
Exasperated said:
Well, that’s fair enough, and hope you enjoy a far less stressful retirement as an individual vet, but if vet practices carry on practising in some of the questionable ways described, they’ll have a fair few less clients to support them, too.
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Unfortunately I am a long way off retirement so the industry will be losing a vet with 25 years of experience who potentially had 20 more years to give to the profession.

I think it's really important here to remember that very little, if any, of this is down to individual vets. We are taking an absolute hammering today on tv, radio and social media. It is a very hard time indeed to be a vet, and the situation is something that very few of us have any individual control over.
 
Gamebird said:
So much makes me sad, but this makes me saddest.

If you honestly think that your vets just can't be bothered to call then that is heartbreaking.

I don't want to start with the 'woe is me', just state the truth. We need time to do things like that! And we just don't have it. Last week I returned to the office every single day at least half an hour after my finish time. Every day I had at least 5 people to call back, plus numerous prescriptions to ok (yeah, sorry, we charge for that). Every single night I got home 2-3hrs (unpaid) after my scheduled work finish time.
Sometimes you just can't call everyone. Sometimes it's got to 7pm and you just need to leave and go home. I have no life, and there's no point ever making plans for the evening.

Now obviously the answer is that there should be more time in the day to ring people, but the actual visits have to take priority. The obvious solution to that is 'employ more vets', but I can't remember a time in the last 10 years that I've worked in a fully staffed practice. Independent or corporate. We are always short of vets, and always running around in circles chasing our tails. I suspect the profession will have one less vet soon as I'm old and tired and just done.

But we are never 'not bothered'. And if that's the impression that's being received then I don't mind being done.
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I'm sorry you feel like this.

I am lucky that my vets have stayed independent. When my horse was put on danilon my vet was transparent with me and said a prescription would be my least expensive option. I had no issue paying for that prescription as the danilon still came in cheaper than buying from the vet directly. I now purchase my danilon from the vet as it costs the same as online.

I feel for the vets who have been put in hopeless situations by their practice selling out to the large conglomerate companies and being pressured into upselling services that are not required.
I also feel for all the customers who have prices hiked up due to the large companies as the only ones winning are those companies. The animals are the ones that end up losing.
 
Gamebird said:
So much makes me sad, but this makes me saddest.

If you honestly think that your vets just can't be bothered to call then that is heartbreaking.

I don't want to start with the 'woe is me', just state the truth. We need time to do things like that! And we just don't have it. Last week I returned to the office every single day at least half an hour after my finish time. Every day I had at least 5 people to call back, plus numerous prescriptions to ok (yeah, sorry, we charge for that). Every single night I got home 2-3hrs (unpaid) after my scheduled work finish time.
Sometimes you just can't call everyone. Sometimes it's got to 7pm and you just need to leave and go home. I have no life, and there's no point ever making plans for the evening.

Now obviously the answer is that there should be more time in the day to ring people, but the actual visits have to take priority. The obvious solution to that is 'employ more vets', but I can't remember a time in the last 10 years that I've worked in a fully staffed practice. Independent or corporate. We are always short of vets, and always running around in circles chasing our tails. I suspect the profession will have one less vet soon as I'm old and tired and just done.

But we are never 'not bothered'. And if that's the impression that's being received then I don't mind being done.
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Do you not think other professions are the same?! I work long hours too, working 2-3 hrs a day extra is pretty standard for a lot of people, there are times when we are working into the early hours of the morning and we work weekends! So whilst I appreciate what you do is demanding, vets are not any different to other jobs that require a degree.

They always called you prior to being a corporate now they don't. Whilst I am sure this is a corporate influence it does come across as they aren't bothered. My horse had colic, you might think they would check-in to see that things were ok! I am not the only one with this view about what has happened.
 
TheBigPony said:
Do you not think other professions are the same?! I work long hours too, working 2-3 hrs a day extra is pretty standard for a lot of people, there are times when we are working into the early hours of the morning and we work weekends! So whilst I appreciate what you do is demanding, vets are not any different to other jobs that require a degree.

They always called you prior to being a corporate now they don't. Whilst I am sure this is a corporate influence it does come across as they aren't bothered. My horse had colic, you might think they would check-in to see that things were ok! I am not the only one with this view about what has happened.
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That's unfair. Whataboutery isn't helpful to anyone. Vets are very different to other jobs. Like all emergency professions, a mistake can be the difference between life and death. There's a hell of a lot of pressure. As a research scientist I was used to taking a lot of flack in the media, but that doesn't compare to Mr or Mrs Angry shouting in your face. When cuts are made, those on the front line take up the slack. A huge increase in the number of pets in recent years combined with a mass exodus of vets to other professions has led to a disastrous shortage. Most of the vets I worked with in teaching left because of the unbearable abuse and working hours. The profession has one of the highest rates of suicide.
 
Our IVC owned horse vets (receptionist) called up Monday to see how the pony the stitched last week was doing. First time I’ve had any vet corporate or not call just to check up!
To be honest I can only see things getting more expensive. Less in the profession means those there command a higher rate and better conditions. The years of getting employed staff to do every other night on call around usual work are gone (certainly in small animals in the south east), and that previously unpaid work now has to be paid for and the only money coming in is from the clients. The more hostile the environment gets, the worse the problem becomes!
 
I will repeat what I've said before.

I'm with an independent practice. Farm and small animal practice.

They're not bells and whistles, and do refer for more complex issues / investigations.

However, they give an excellent service, their charges are more than reasonable. I'm always able to see my preferred vet. Pricing is transparent. They're caring and empathetic. And I always get a phonecall from following up on how Daisy is when needed.
 
Our small animal vets were taken over by one of the big companies but I have to say, although our vet bills are noticeably higher, on the whole their service and treatment has been first class.

One of my dogs was extremely ill a few months back and I can definitely say if it hadn't been for the very quick response from my vet recognising immediately how ill she was and sending us straight to the nearest decent vet hospital, our dog would not still be here. My vet also rang me every few days she was in the hospital to see how it was going, the vet overseeing her treatment at the hospital also telephoned us every day with an update. We were given a rough estimate at every stage of her treatment so there weren't any nasty surprises thankfully.

The local vet also continued to phone roughly once a week to see how it was all going until the care was passed back to our vet from the hospital vet. I cannot fault them, the continued first class care to keep little Jessie going happily and relatively well is literally a life saver. Plus we have been given a few money saving ideas about one of the more expensive treatments she has to be on. So for us, although expensive and I do know another small independent that would be cheaper, we will stick with the larger conglomerate vet and their practice that has not let us down so far.

My horse and donkey vet is still a small independent, he is not cheap but I will not be changing him under any circumstances. He is first class and worth every penny IMHO.
 
It's not the individual vets that people are upset at, it's the corporations that are profit driven that are not employing enough vets for the workload, setting them targets to achieve, driving up the prices etc.
I know that if I had been promised call backs & they kept not happening, I would feel that someone couldn't be bothered calling me.
 
I had a really awful experience with a large independent practice. It wasn't noticeably cheaper. The communication was awful, and caused a huge amount of distress. The pricing wasn't clear at all - they could not provide me with a price list when asked. They added an 'emergency script' charge to my account - it wasn't a lot but at no point did they let me know there would be additional charge for scripts needed within a certain time. They didn't tell me that the medication they kept prescribing could actually be prescribed in a much larger amount and save quite a bit of money.

We're trying a smaller independent practice now and will see how we go. Tbh I'm not sure it is radically better than other 'big chain' practice we were with before.

ETA - sorry just realised my point here is not 'vet bashing' but that I'm not sure independent practice always equals a better experience over bigger chain.
 
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Gamebird said:
Unfortunately I am a long way off retirement so the industry will be losing a vet with 25 years of experience who potentially had 20 more years to give to the profession.

I think it's really important here to remember that very little, if any, of this is down to individual vets. We are taking an absolute hammering today on tv, radio and social media. It is a very hard time indeed to be a vet, and the situation is something that very few of us have any individual control over.
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I don’t think anyone is hammering individual vets, rather it is their employers who decide the policies and pricing, and as a general rule seems to be corporate enterprises where the obfuscation and profiteering are markedly greater. Those are national findings, not anecdotal experiences. Bonuses and targets for promoting extra treatments and products, lack of transparency, over priced pharmaceuticals, list goes on and on.
As an experienced professional in an industry where professionals are in very short supply, you, personally, are in a strong position to ignore such initiatives, take the moral high ground and fully explain pros/ cons / costs etc to clients - and I have no doubt that you do this. That is exactly the sort of pride experienced professionals have in all sorts of other industries and services, and quite right too, would expect no less, and presumably why you went into this work? And hopefully you’ll be able to continue. It’s also why there is burn out in multiple professions, additional hours and extreme responsibility certainly not restricted to vets.
 
Gamebird said:
I think it's really important here to remember that very little, if any, of this is down to individual vets. We are taking an absolute hammering today on tv, radio and social media. It is a very hard time indeed to be a vet, and the situation is something that very few of us have any individual control over.
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Totally agree with that, even when we have had to use a corporate chain type practice that's charged through the nose for tiny things, the individual vets have been generally compassionate and competent. I don't think many people go into veterinary medicine because they want to make loads of money!

But the wider industry landscape needs to change. I think it would benefit vets as well as clients.
 
rara007 said:
Our IVC owned horse vets (receptionist) called up Monday to see how the pony the stitched last week was doing. First time I’ve had any vet corporate or not call just to check up!
To be honest I can only see things getting more expensive. Less in the profession means those there command a higher rate and better conditions. The years of getting employed staff to do every other night on call around usual work are gone (certainly in small animals in the south east), and that previously unpaid work now has to be paid for and the only money coming in is from the clients. The more hostile the environment gets, the worse the problem becomes!
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Yep, one would expect employed professionals in short supply would also be in an increasingly strong position to influence or dictate their terms of employment, too.
 
Further to my earlier post , we sadly also lost our other old pony in May this year . Our vet was not working the day we called to arrange pts but she came on her day off because she wanted to be there for us .
My vet daughter currently has some health problems . She spent from 7 pm to 1 am in A & E , had a few hours sleep then worked for more than 12 hours .
I think there are far more vets that do care than those who don’t .
 
MurphysMinder said:
Further to my earlier post , we sadly also lost our other old pony in May this year . Our vet was not working the day we called to arrange pts but she came on her day off because she wanted to be there for us .
My vet daughter currently has some health problems . She spent from 7 pm to 1 am in A & E , had a few hours sleep then worked for more than 12 hours .
I think there are far more vets that do care than those who don’t .
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There certainly are and I will be eternally grateful to the vet that has been at my side for the last 30 plus years. Anyone who thinks vets are not affected by their work is delusional. They have a lot of bad days, devastating losses and emotional anguish.

I think we need to remember the pressures that vets come under, the owner expectations, the responsibilities they face every day. We need to remember the industry has the highest level of suicide of any industry. The large animal vets suffer a lot of injuries and the job is intensely manual. They get up every morning, or middle of the night for some, to care for animals, to end suffering if necessary and to mend were possible. They don't get up and think how much money can I make for shareholders. The few independents left have staff to pay, building and equipment to maintain, the cost of which is ever rising.

Lets respect them. The world we all live in is becoming evermore corporate and a lot of the business practices being put in place are led by huge hedge fund companies not the vets. I'm old enough to remember horse vets in brown coats whose main remedy was 'put it in the field for 6 months'. No access to scanners, MRi machines etc. The profession has moved on with extensive access to modern technology enabling animals to live comfortably for so much longer.

I really hope the CMS report does not result in vets being verbally abused or disrespected and I hope the report can streamline and bring more transparency to the corporate bodies.
 
We will never be happy. We want a full suite of medical diagnostics and wonder drugs for 50p forgetting that this is not subsidised by taxes and that the business has to pay hundreds of thousands for the diagnostic tools we want. We want vets to come out at all hours but not to pay more than fuel money forgetting that running cars is not cheap. We want vets to have a crap wage because that will keep costs down but then can't understand why they are understaffed, overworked and have chronically high suicide rates because they are being yelled at all day and criticised over costs. We feel like having animals is a right and not a privilege. Difference to kids is that the government doesn't subsidise them in a myriad of ways.
Sure you can argue that the RVCS made the worst decision ever in allowing corporate in, but there was a reason as independents were running into issues and lacked funding for very expensive kit for diagnostics. Our future is soon to be one of having to take horses to clinics for everything as easier to fund and staff.

There is a simple way to solve this issue.... don't have animals but then we will all kick off about that as well.....
 
I use a corporate equine vet - excellent service

I use a independent SA vet - excellent service

I work part time for an expensive corporate OOH vet - all the clinic team provide an excellent service (I work on the front desk).

Every single vet I have worked with goes above and beyond.

Vets work relentlessly hard, long hours day in and day out. Your equine vet will also be part of an OOH rota, so may work all weekend and the get up on Monday morning and be back on the road. They don't switch off, they will carry your horse in their head - my own vet once rang me and said I was thinking about your horse last night, let's try this.

Appreciate your vet for all the do and all the care they give.

Lots leave the profession and I can see why.

It is not your young vet's fault that their predecessors sold out to a corporate nor is it the person's on reception (I love to be shouted at 11pm at night over a bill).

Life is expensive, veterinary care is expensive.
 
sollimum said:
I use a corporate equine vet - excellent service

I use a independent SA vet - excellent service

I work part time for an expensive corporate OOH vet - all the clinic team provide an excellent service (I work on the front desk).

Every single vet I have worked with goes above and beyond.

Vets work relentlessly hard, long hours day in and day out. Your equine vet will also be part of an OOH rota, so may work all weekend and the get up on Monday morning and be back on the road. They don't switch off, they will carry your horse in their head - my own vet once rang me and said I was thinking about your horse last night, let's try this.

Appreciate your vet for all the do and all the care they give.

Lots leave the profession and I can see why.

It is not your young vet's fault that their predecessors sold out to a corporate nor is it the person's on reception (I love to be shouted at 11pm at night over a bill).

Life is expensive, veterinary care is expensive.
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No one should be shouting at or abusing veterinary / admin staff, or A&E workers, or anyone else for that matter. It is alienating, demoralising, counter productive and downright rude - end of.
Thus far, the Competition and Monopolies / Markets inquiry hasn’t considered the agri / equine sector, ‘things’ are not the young vet’s fault, but that does not mean the findings to date are invalid, nor that changes in veterinary practising are unnecessary. Even the RCVS have acknowledged that much.
 
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