sollimum
Well-Known Member
I am pleased that we are in agreement that it unacceptable to point the finger at admin/clinical staff who are purely employees of a corporate.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
I am feeling very fortunate after reading this thread. We have access to 2 good independent mixed practice vets, both with equine hospital facilities within reasonable travelling distance, both with multiple local small animal surgeries.
In the past I have had poor experiences with both of them and for a time moved to a smaller independent vet practice but when that vet retired, the practice was taken over by a chain, so moved back with no problems so far. Fingers crossed we haven't needed much interaction with them for a while.
No, it is not the fault of a young vet that their predecessors sold out to a chain but their mistakes are their own just as the incorrect billing is the fault of the admin team.
Not that anyone should be shouted at or abused in any way. I know that we all make mistakes but where are the checks in the system?
I was once credited with someone else's insurance payout. We don't insure, so it was easy for me to pick up but what happened in the office?
In the past I have had poor experiences with both of them and for a time moved to a smaller independent vet practice but when that vet retired, the practice was taken over by a chain, so moved back with no problems so far. Fingers crossed we haven't needed much interaction with them for a while.
No, it is not the fault of a young vet that their predecessors sold out to a chain but their mistakes are their own just as the incorrect billing is the fault of the admin team.
Not that anyone should be shouted at or abused in any way. I know that we all make mistakes but where are the checks in the system?
I was once credited with someone else's insurance payout. We don't insure, so it was easy for me to pick up but what happened in the office?
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MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
I was waiting in our vets reception on a Saturday afternoon to pick up my dog and overheard a totally unacceptable call to the receptionist. She dealt with it very well, in the end saying very politely "I am sorry you can't speak to me like that" and hanging up, but she was nearly in tears. I commented how shocked I was and she said it was an almost daily occurrence.
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
You'd think so, but the problem is not the number of qualified vets. It's the number of experienced vets that remain in the profession 5 years after qualifying. When you have vets in their 20s signing up to be lecturers, you know there's a problem. Also, I don't think you have to be naming individual vets to be perceived as attacking the profession as a whole. Trust me, in Covid, it was personal when 'scientists' were accused of covering up, not knowing what they were doing, taking the money, sucking up to big pharma, yadda yadda.... Post like some of the ones above are grinding. The Be Kind era was so 2020, though...
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Poor woman is absolutely correct - foul language, intimidation and or verbal threats are contrary to common law, and prosecutable.I was waiting in our vets reception on a Saturday afternoon to pick up my dog and overheard a totally unacceptable call to the receptionist. She dealt with it very well, in the end saying very politely "I am sorry you can't speak to me like that" and hanging up, but she was nearly in tears. I commented how shocked I was and she said it was an almost daily occurrence.
In this case, the perpetrator and their contact details are known, there is a witness to the conversation and it’s impact, so be very interesting to see just how highly her veterinary employer values their receptionist - whether they write advising that any complaints will be dealt with in a civil manner or via their legal practice, and formally notify the police?
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Going into academia, likely to be on research and teaching contracts in today’s universities, and may well find plenty of other aggravations there - altho probably not the feral violence in some secondary schools!
Don’t take it personally: distrust of science and traditional meta narratives is integral to the post modern world - antivax during COVID one example - also seems there were plenty opportunists ‘taking the money’ for their COVID contributions, Ms Mone being another.
Landcruiser
Well-Known Member
In the real world, the police would not be interested in a vet receptionist being verbally abused or shouted at. TBH, foul language is rare, verbal threats are rarer, and "intimidation" would be very hard to define and quantify. Some staff may be intimidated by a forbidding manner or snarky comments. Older, more experienced staff like myself would barely notice these things.
I've been on the front desk for over 10 years (IVC). We (and I mean the whole Practice team) get sh1t from both sides. We get promotions and new initiatives from above relentlessly, and we get complaints, mostly about pricing, from the clients. In that 10 years I have seen several vets crumble, both male and female vets in tears, vets crying with bereaved owners, crying through exhaustion, crying through abuse from clients. Panic attacks, long term sickness, leaving the industry. Vets working over 12 hours straight without a break. Lunch a sandwich grabbed at 4pm after an 8.30am start and non stop surgery and consults.
I've been sworn at more than once, the police actually have been summoned more than once. We've had fights (literally), dramas, emergencies with entire families wailing in reception or a consult room. There's so much more I could say, but I shall just say - this is a hard and extremely stressful job, and it pays far, far less than most people imagine. Most reception staff (myself included) are on minimum wage. Nurses are not many pounds above. Vets get a salary, but their hourly rate is relatively low, they do a lot of unpaid overtime. The media yesterday was full of news about veterinary costs, and almost none of the coverage was from the point of view of those of us actually doing the job. Even James O'Brien was calling us scammers and rip off merchants, and wheeling out the old tropes about looking to see what car the vet drives, and "Have you ever met a poor vet?" Erm...YES!!
Honestly, we welcome the CMA report, but I wish the media coverage was more balanced, and that people understood that what they pay has to cover EVERYONE'S wages, the whole shebang, as well as all the funky equipment, training, overheads, consumables, insurance...everything. Including the shareholder dividends in the case of corporate, but we are where we are.
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
And again, you'd think so, but still there have been redundancies of both clinical and non-clinical staff over the past 2 years. In my previous practice we lost half of our vets and admin staff in one fell swoop, and with the legal minimum of notice. So I don't think any of the employees in the sector feel that they are in a position where they can influence let alone dictate any of their employment terms.
druid
Well-Known Member
I discourage any one who asks from becoming a vet.
The report is...flawed? Maybe needs refinement is a better option
£16 prescription cap? OK so now instead of putting 4 items on you £25 prescription each one will become an individual prescription. More money.
Many of the online pharmacies (in fact, the majority) are owned by the same dreaded corporates....more money for them.
Prescriptions for acute meds are not in the interests of animal welfare in any way.
Price lists....how do you compare a bare bones cat spay just the op price vs pre op bloods, anaesthetic time, higher monitoring standards and post op meds included in the fee? How are they going to define what is in each procedure etc?
The report is...flawed? Maybe needs refinement is a better option
£16 prescription cap? OK so now instead of putting 4 items on you £25 prescription each one will become an individual prescription. More money.
Many of the online pharmacies (in fact, the majority) are owned by the same dreaded corporates....more money for them.
Prescriptions for acute meds are not in the interests of animal welfare in any way.
Price lists....how do you compare a bare bones cat spay just the op price vs pre op bloods, anaesthetic time, higher monitoring standards and post op meds included in the fee? How are they going to define what is in each procedure etc?
rara007
Well-Known Member
The report doesn’t seem to be tying up with the media reports of it. The media have run with the vets are expensive, the report is more about transparency. It’s given everyone a good reminder to get any complaints in though.
My human private prescription fee is £47 for 3 months worth… The £16 cap only really benefits the corporate owned pharmacies which seems somewhat ironic.
The RCVS does need to be able to regulate non clinical practice owners, at the moment we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place whist still being the one responsible on paper, but in real life being employees with limited sway. It’s not unusual to end up in an ethical dead end.
The only place we’ve ever had quick police response from was when we were in the red light district so the small block was 24/7 policed. It was not a great area to be parked still though, but at least if you called they came. Everywhere else you struggle to get a response even when the window has been punched in to the main clinical area so you can not safely continue to work or they’re throwing bottles against the building so the other clients can’t get in safely.
Price lists are no bad thing but I don’t believe clients will be able to interpret well enough. I saw a little dog the other night bleeding from its major surgical wound and they couldn’t get it to take its tablets. They’d found somewhere to do the surgery 1/2 the price they’d been quoted locally. There was 0 scheduled follow up with the practice only opening 2 days a week and very minimal home medications. Of course that’s 1/2 the price of standard of care for such a large procedure that would usually involve a few days IV pain relief and inpatient care (as such a large painful surgery).
My human private prescription fee is £47 for 3 months worth… The £16 cap only really benefits the corporate owned pharmacies which seems somewhat ironic.
The RCVS does need to be able to regulate non clinical practice owners, at the moment we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place whist still being the one responsible on paper, but in real life being employees with limited sway. It’s not unusual to end up in an ethical dead end.
The only place we’ve ever had quick police response from was when we were in the red light district so the small block was 24/7 policed. It was not a great area to be parked still though, but at least if you called they came. Everywhere else you struggle to get a response even when the window has been punched in to the main clinical area so you can not safely continue to work or they’re throwing bottles against the building so the other clients can’t get in safely.
Price lists are no bad thing but I don’t believe clients will be able to interpret well enough. I saw a little dog the other night bleeding from its major surgical wound and they couldn’t get it to take its tablets. They’d found somewhere to do the surgery 1/2 the price they’d been quoted locally. There was 0 scheduled follow up with the practice only opening 2 days a week and very minimal home medications. Of course that’s 1/2 the price of standard of care for such a large procedure that would usually involve a few days IV pain relief and inpatient care (as such a large painful surgery).
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
I don’t doubt any of this, it is very sad, and cumulatively these contributions clearly show just how lousy some (perhaps most) corporate employers can be - first loyalty is always to shareholders, axing staff to cut costs, minimum wages, terms and conditions, multiple wheezes to boost profits, complete lack of support for staff - to be hoped the CMA expose the entirety of poor practice and go after them good and proper
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
I think the other problematic area is having to provide a prescription before the client leaves the practice. So you see the chronic CHF dog that is on 3 or 4 meds for a check up. And now as well as all of the other stuff you have to fit into the consultation time, and yoour note writing etc, you then will be obliged to produce 3 or 4 prescriptions before the dog leaves thee premises. This becomes untenable, so then consult times become longer, and of course they will be proportionally more expensive. You need to turn over the same amount per hour whether that is in the form of 4x 15min appointments, or 2x30min appointments.
I am broadly in favour of prescriptions (although not in favour of the hours I spend checking and OK'ing them) and always offer them, but the requirement to produce them instantly (and cheaply) does not seem viable.
As an equine vet none of this will apply directly to me, but I have no doubt that there will be broader ramifications.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
I think the problem is that for the big corporates the costs are expected to not only cover equipment overheads training, consumables insurance everything but also shareholder dividends.
In Independent multiple surgery practices directors/senior partners take profits, commensurate with their input, out of the business rather than squeezing as much unearned in come as possible out of the customers.
It seems that the CMA has found that customers of some chains are being treated unfairly. That is not the fault of individual staff members but of the business model.
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Astounded - police usually straight out anywhere pharmaceuticals known to be kept. Advise ‘em there’s ketamine on site, euthanasia drugs and a humane killer - should galvanise the thin blue line….
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
It is to be hoped there are ramifications into the agri and equine sectors of veterinary practice (recognising the big money is made in smaller pets), because if inappropriate practises - whether in employment of staff or treatment of clients, are discovered (and seems most people recognise there is certainly some of this going on) - or improvements to be made - should be happening right across the board.
And if veterinary employers of all types have to reconsider how they schedule their vets, or vets have to improve their CPD - quite right too.
druid
Well-Known Member
Improve their CPD? What do you think is wrong with the current CPD program?
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Who knows? Depends what is turned up, that is part of the reason for inquiry, possibly nothing - altho that is rare, most professionals are continually required to adapt and improve - whatever they happen to do.
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
ETA, most professionals want to, not something for being defensive about - if there was something in the way in which you did your job, communicated with your clients, your colleagues, or even the way in which you ministered to your patients, which could be improved - presumably you would want to do that? And you might reasonably expect that your employer would want to support that, and cite the findings of any inquiry which showed this, no?
druid
Well-Known Member
None of your replies answers the query about what reform you would like to see of CPD program?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
presumably how to get a police response in the middle of the night?. . ..
druid
Well-Known Member
I don't remember that in any of my CPD...maybe you are spot on. The police were FAR more concerned about my legally held firearms than any prescription meds when we were broken in to.paddy555
Well-Known Member
sep prescription and sep charge for each from my small animal vet and has always been. Last time I checked it was £22 so for 3 drugs that is £66 before you even get the drugs.
Marshpiper
Well-Known Member
Well written…..in my 70 plus years of knowing vets, young vets, old vets, cross vets, funny vets, vets acting as officials at events often voluntary, vets coming to carry out the last thing for a beloved animal and hugging me as we cried together…never have I not been grateful for the expertise and care they bring with them….
paddy555
Well-Known Member
my equine vets and small animal vets are both part of the same independent practice yet they are totally different. They seem to be in a different universe to each other. No way would I change the equine side. They provide excellent service, they listen, we come to joint decisions as to the best way forward, they have an excellent emergency service with their own vets. They don't overcharge, do well doing operations for me at home (where possible) have a lot of skill at horse handling and don't seem in a rush. The vets seem to stay forever, somehow they seem to recruit all the same type of young vets who are good and retain them. They know the horses are not insured. They offer a choice of what is totally required and what I could have if I wanted. They are very generous with their time. We usually update by either me ringing them if it is a really important problem or alternatively I e mail to report progress the next day. Then they don't have to spend time ringing me back. They are pretty generous about letting me have meds and pergoquin and bute are competitively priced. So excellent, very very happy with them.
Then we get to the small animal vets. Or at least in my case we no longer do as I am voting with my feet. I am just so disappointed with them, Their charges, what seems to be "is it insured" attitude. I haven't even found the vet service to be particuarly good. No idea why when the horse side is so good. Also don't understand why it costs so much more for a 15 min consultation at their surgery compared for an almost timeless one at home when an equine vet has travelled considerable distance. I don't think it would be possible to use them unless you were insured so I don't know how uninsured people cope. My dog was insured and he simply seemed to be a licence to print money for them via Petplan
Then we get to the small animal vets. Or at least in my case we no longer do as I am voting with my feet. I am just so disappointed with them, Their charges, what seems to be "is it insured" attitude. I haven't even found the vet service to be particuarly good. No idea why when the horse side is so good. Also don't understand why it costs so much more for a 15 min consultation at their surgery compared for an almost timeless one at home when an equine vet has travelled considerable distance. I don't think it would be possible to use them unless you were insured so I don't know how uninsured people cope. My dog was insured and he simply seemed to be a licence to print money for them via Petplan
suestowford
Well-Known Member
I still use the practice I've been with for many years, they were sold to IVC a couple of years ago. Things I have noticed since this happened, a sharp rise in costs, and an empty waiting room. It used to be heaving in there, but now there's usually no-one in there when I go in. The costs trouble me, but everything else has gone up too so it isn't just because of corporate greed, although it must be a factor. The clients are now supporting the corporate giant as well as the vet practice, so it adds a layer to the prices.
There are now some independents about but I have stuck with the same vet as I know them and they know me. Our horse vet from there is superb and I trust her implicitly. I feel for the vets there as I am sure they are expected to sell more tests/treatments, but it's no different from when I go to the dentist and they are always trying to get me to spend £££ on cosmetic dentistry. I am not ashamed to stand in the vet surgery and say that I'll struggle with that cost, can we find a less costly way of doing this? There usually is one even if it's not 'gold standard'.
There are now some independents about but I have stuck with the same vet as I know them and they know me. Our horse vet from there is superb and I trust her implicitly. I feel for the vets there as I am sure they are expected to sell more tests/treatments, but it's no different from when I go to the dentist and they are always trying to get me to spend £££ on cosmetic dentistry. I am not ashamed to stand in the vet surgery and say that I'll struggle with that cost, can we find a less costly way of doing this? There usually is one even if it's not 'gold standard'.
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
We do have to do a minimum of 35hrs per year (though most vets will do at least double this). Most employers will fund approximately 25hrs, and the rest is self-funded, both in terms of time and money. It has to be up to date and relevant to your specific job, and we now have to submit reflections on all CPD undertaken. In any case of a complaint to the RCVS your CPD is scrutinised particularly for quality of content, up-to-dateness, and relevance to your specific area of work.
Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
This is what I was trying to say before.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
but I'm sure quite a few would struggle standing up like that.
We seem to have lost experience or perhaps it's no longer wanted or encouraged. Vets used to look at animals and use their experience now it is just tests. I have found over the years that experience counted for a lot, far more than tests.
if a vet provides good service I have no problem paying knowing that it will be going into the partners pockets. They will be carrying the risk and working for it. Shareholders OTOH
this is an older article but probably what many feel.
‘The vet presented it as: if you care, you pay’: who really profits from poorly pets?
£150 for a dog’s injection. £900 to monitor a rabbit overnight. Thousands for cat surgery. How did pet care become such big business?
anguscat
Well-Known Member
Yes. I think people will ‘downsize’ to fewer pets.