Vet permission - they dont pay the bill

You've certainly got a point OP, but really your problem should be with the law. I don't like all the laws that limit my decisions about my animals but the vets and the physios are just abiding by them.
 
paulineh said:
Those of you that choice not to consult with your vet when it comes to asking a "Back" person to see your horse , would you use an unqualified farrier or EDT to deal with your horse.

Those with out formal training either lie to get insurance or do not have any insurance at all.

What would you do if something went wrong, you would not have a leg to stand on.
Click to expand...

There are more than enough qualified practioners of any sort that are capable of completely damaging the health and well-being of horses....
 
Having recently seen a case where a practitioner was carrying out a therapy that was illegal for them to perform and resulted in a neurological and ultimately fatal disorder for the horse I would urge horse owners to be careful of using unqualified and therefore generally uninsured therapists. In my case the horse owner's insurance company also (unfortunately rightfully!) refused to pay for the resulting investigations and attempted treatment.
 
badgermyers said:
My physio doesnt ask for vet permission but I have used her for around 10 years so not sure if you had to back then? Shes a very good and well known physio for human and horses.
Click to expand...

The legislation has been in place since the 1960's, so your physio should have notified your vet. If she is a registered ACPAT she will be well aware of that too.
 
I am sports massage therapist (almost qualified!) and if a regular client asked me to massage a horse currently under treatment for any condition, I would talk to the vet first even though I would have talked to vet previously about massaging the horse when there was no condition. I do it because I am required by law to do that and because my insurance requires it and because in an ideal world, vets/dentists/therapists are a team that helps the horse as a whole.


don't underestimate mud fever-it's an infection and produces a profound inflammatory response-I would want to know from the vet, if massage (which increases blood flow) was beneficial for that particular horse.
 
badgermyers said:
I did not know this!
says M.C.S.P., S.R.P

Well shes fantastic so I cant complain and does all my horses I have in. No idea if they ask other people for vet permission
Click to expand...

It's the vet act 1966 that is the key legislative paper; it decrees that noone can diagnose an equine other than a vet and that noone can treat an equine other than the vet or owner. All other professionals - be they physios, osteos, chiros, reikis, sports massage therapists, aromatherapists.....uncle tom cobley and all....require the permission of the veterinarian. My insurance also dictates that I have the permission of the vet and tbh I am amazed at the number of therapists from this thread that seem to put the onus on the owner to achieve that permission.

Personally, I keep written records on every case; when first consulted, when vet permission first obtained and from whom and then a full case history. With due respect to all owners (and I am as guilty as charged where my own neds are concerned) we sometimes don't present as complete a case history as possible and talking to the vet can often give me other insights.

Sometimes a vet will give 'blanket' permission to me to treat any horse that I come across that is under his practice. Increasingly, however, I prefer to only take on new clients after discussing with the veterinarian. If it is a new horse into an established client then that can be a different matter, depending on what they present.

Hasten to add, have not read this thread in its entirety, so apologies if duplicating....
 
Firstly - who made vets gods ?
Secondly - I was not refferingto an unqualified person
Thirdly - "2 gods" have seen horse 9 times over a 4 week period - 4 times in the last 6 days....
- tomorrow he gets x-rayed for a fractured pedal bone
Forthly - my horses are not insured - I pay for them

I have been saying since last Friday - that I think he has broken something - but apparantly he could not have because he has been on box rest and controlled excercise.

Under proffessional advice i have been forcing said horse to walk in hand for ten mins twice a day !

Under non-proffessional advice I have demanded horse is x-rayed in situ tomorrow.

Now god forbid horse has a fracture - turst me I will sue the hell out of the practice, especially as they said he had definalty not broken anything, but did not think it was an abcess, or his mud fever - buy that he has just possibly tweeked something in the stable ! and it was a wait and see - bloody hell i have been forcing the horse to walk for gods sake - how do you think i feel ?

I told them the horse had broken something on Friday, he was also visited on Saturday, Monday and Wednesday !
 
Gingerwitch said:
Firstly - who made vets gods ?
Secondly - I was not refferingto an unqualified person
Thirdly - "2 gods" have seen horse 9 times over a 4 week period - 4 times in the last 6 days....
- tomorrow he gets x-rayed for a fractured pedal bone
Forthly - my horses are not insured - I pay for them

I have been saying since last Friday - that I think he has broken something - but apparantly he could not have because he has been on box rest and controlled excercise.

Under proffessional advice i have been forcing said horse to walk in hand for ten mins twice a day !

Under non-proffessional advice I have demanded horse is x-rayed in situ tomorrow.

Now god forbid horse has a fracture - turst me I will sue the hell out of the practice, especially as they said he had definalty not broken anything, but did not think it was an abcess, or his mud fever - buy that he has just possibly tweeked something in the stable ! and it was a wait and see - bloody hell i have been forcing the horse to walk for gods sake - how do you think i feel ?

I told them the horse had broken something on Friday, he was also visited on Saturday, Monday and Wednesday !
Click to expand...

This sounds like a pretty ghastly situation and I really hope nothing really awful is wrong with your horse.
But that's was not the point of the original post where you where annoyed with the professional therapist who asked you to inform the vet she that she was going to see the horse .
Reading the situation you are in with the horse i understand totally why she refused to see it without the vet being informed..
You are in a tight spot with this I was going to say let's hope the X-ray throws some light on it but it might not be the best thing .
I really feel for you its terrible when you don't know what's wrong and even worse if you have lost trust in the vet.
Good luck let us all know it all comes out.
But the law is the law
 
Why do you think i was so annoyed at being refferred back to the very place that was being so useless?
If the back person had come out - then my horse would probably have been x-rayed the same day - either with the current practice or another one.

My inital post was aimed in the manner it was because my hands were being tied by red tape - I was desperatly trying to get to the bottom of what was wrong with my horse and another proffessional opinion could have helped me come to that conclusion but that was denied to both me and the horse.

The vets would not give permission for her to visit the horse (Wednesdays visit) and she would not visit because the permission was not granted - the outcome is my poor lad potentially suffering a serious injury without being treated because of incompetent numpties and an outdated bloody practice !
 
Last edited:
I hope the original poster gets to the bottom of the horse's problems asap, I would insist I wanted my horse xrayed, and there is nothing to stop you from asking another practice to so this if you have lost faith with the current vet. After all you know your horse better than anyone.

As you can probably tell by my username I am a therapist. It is a legal requirement to have veterinary permission to treat any animal. This is normally a very quick phone call to the practice reception. If the therapist is reputable the vets will know/have heard of them and if there were any concerns with the individual they could recommend others locally.
You can do a lot of digging to check qualifications on the internet! Unfortunately I see the poor/damaging work of unqualified/poorly qualified individuals so asking new clients to seek veterinary permission is very important to protect your animal and your wallet!
BEVA are also now approving para professionals, this has not yet been properly 'launched' but memebers of these organisations are qualified, insured and do CPD so a good place to start.

http://www.beva.org.uk/useful-info/Directories/Musculo-Skeletal-Paras

Best wishes
Rachel
 
I'm very sorry you're not getting treatment from your vet which you feel is appropriate. Sounds like a terrible situation.

However, you are now saying:
Gingerwitch said:
The vets would not give permission for her to visit the horse (Wednesdays visit) and she would not visit because the permission was not granted -
Click to expand...

This puts a different light on it as you earlier said:
Gingerwitch said:
I have just been told that a particular back person will not attend my horse unless I inform my vet- told her that up to her - she just lost a customer,
Click to expand...

:confused:
 
GW, i feel your pain and totally understand your rant. Sack your vets, take action against them if you can, find a new one who at the very least is willing to listen to you and comes without a god complex! Not easy i know!

I am onto my 3rd vet in as many months, i've sacked two very well regarded (ha!) vets and have hopefully now found one who is prepared to semi-listen to me....the owner/rider/care giver...you know the person that deals with said horse on a daily basis and is capable of observing changes! Its not ideal as they are not local, but for emergencies i will go to a different local practice.

New vet recommended a physio straight away and they are speaking together about my case....what a refreshing change!

Best of luck and i hope you have a successful outcome.
 
I have no comments re the physio and vets permission, but I would consider asking the vet to investigate the possibility that your horse is suffering from lykocylastic vasculitis. This is a very painful condition and it is extremely difficult to treat. Does your horse have theses sores on white skin at all? I would suggest doing a search on the forum as it has been posted about previously. My 9 yr old gelding suffers from this, but luckily has had only 2 serious outbreaks and I can manage the condition now.
 
FionaM12 -

If you look at the date of the original post - then refusing persmission you will see that this refers to the vet visit on Wednesday - 2 days after the original post.

I really hope that satisfy's you - anymore points your require clarity on?

Thanks for all those with constructive input
 
Whatever it is sounda hideous, I hope you get to the bottom of it.

In fairness a good vets may well refuse permission if the comp therapist is unknown to them, holds quals they don't recognise and can't verify (is your back person a sports massage therapist?) , or the work they do may be unhelpful or dangerous to the horse, if he is undiagnosed yet some conditions contraindicate manual therapy.

Very best of luck getting to the bottom of things with your horse.
 
I've really struggled to get to grips with this thread. Initially I didn't respond because you had enough people telling you what I would have said - that it's the law and being angry with the physio for that is unfair. Reading on further I have more sympathy for your position and I am inclined to think you are just very frightened for your horse and desperate to find a solution.

It's clear you don't trust or have any faith in your vets and as others have said the answer is to move practices. When it comes to large animal vets I had very positive experiences, so much so that I drive my house pets into the next county to be treated by the horse vets I knew (saved my dog being PTS years ago as town vets advised wrongly). Sometimes the answer is just to have the determination to go down a difficult route - like vets in next county! As others have said in an emergency it doesn't bar you from contacting local vets and I believe that they do have a duty of care if an animal is suffering (comments from others?).

I was curious why the vets ruled out a puss pocket? I've seen puss pockets lame a horse to the extent I thought he would be hound fodder - and that was literally over night. I'm also curious if I've read the thread right in understanding it's a non professional that's told you to get an xray (no harm done) but that the potential for a broken pedal bone is at present far from certain? The reason I'm asking is that the way the posts come across you appear very convinced that the evidence of a fracture is already compelling prior to the xray? If your horse has got a fracture I'm so sorry and I think from what you've said you would have recourse against your vets. It's unusual for vets to be 100% confirming no fracture in a very lame horse prior to xray, although I know they use phrases like 'strongly doubt' etc. I'm also curious why they would see being on box rest as the logic behind being firm there's no fracture - horses on box rest are reknown for acting up out of frustration and hoof can meet wall in many ways, rolling, getting cast, rearing etc.

In general I think you are trying really hard to help your horse but if you can try to cool things down a little it might help make the posts clearer and it's that clarity which allows responses to be genuinely helpful for you and your horse. I'm not saying this looking down my nose, my day job can be beyond frustrating where red tape and institutional systems can make basic and obvious stuff nigh on impossible. I've done my share of ranting and have got to a point of knowing it's less effective than a calmer approach - not that that means I always succeed!

Once you've got to the bottom of the situation with your horse start another thread re powers of vets and we could have a really interesting discussion. As it is I think the larger discussion over the law is doing more to interfere with the advice you could be getting re your horse.
 
Most people seemed to have overlooked the reason why GW posted in the first place....she was on her own, has a very poorly horse, a lot of vets visits with no end in sight and then to add insult to injury, was made to feel she has to give permission for another view on her horse. I fully appreciate the legalities but perhaps the practise could have been a little easier to work with. I am also aghast that they are racking up the bills when GW TOLD them she had no insurance. I have regular access to a good Mc timoney lady as part of normal care for both my horses. Vet knows and is happy. I choose to have a plain speaking Aussie lady vet from our practise. She does not mess about, keeps an eye on the bills and advises accordingly. Good luck GW I really hope, this is resolved. Just something else to add to the frame is that I have seen horses (older ones) who get put on box rest for one issue and then the enforced rest causes issues elsewhere. Then it get hard to know what started which issue.

So you are welcome to rant, question and pontificate!!! This is supposed to be a supportive forum so take the supportive ones who offer clarity and ignore those who read quickly and judge hastily.
 
Gingerwitch said:
FionaM12 -

If you look at the date of the original post - then refusing persmission you will see that this refers to the vet visit on Wednesday - 2 days after the original post.

I really hope that satisfy's you - anymore points your require clarity on?

Thanks for all those with constructive input
Click to expand...

Sigh. I'm only pointing out that you said you'd sent the back person packing for asking for the vet's opinion. It just puts a different light on it that you obviously changed your mind, sought permission and were refused it.

Quite different case, being refused permission rather than refusing to seek it!

I understand you're upset and feeling sensitive, but why post your story on a forum then bite peoples' heads off when they ask questions?
 
FionaM12 - have you seen some of the posts targeted at me - yes I was in a desperate situation - still am - and was looking for a bit of moral support.

If you had seen the horse you would have been convinced it was a break too - I still am - apparantly the x-rays are inconclusive - this may occur with a pedal bone fracture as apparantly they sometimes need time to show up ????? - no sign of an abcess - so it could be a very badly damaged sole/bone - but how this has occured is beyond me.

I was the unqualified numpty I was reffering too. I asked the vets at Wednesdays's visit if my back lady could look at him, as the stuffing had been knocked out of me on here too - especailly the post about "poor horse" not deserving an owner like me - that really did hurt - and was told a polite but firm no.

They have agreed to charge me just for a normal call out and bute on saturday as the vet was so "inconclusive" .... but again I am on a wait and see.
 
Gingerwitch said:
especailly the post about "poor horse" not deserving an owner like me - that really did hurt -
Click to expand...

Yes I thought that was a cruel thing to say and I'm not surprised you were upset.

I hope you manage to get to the bottom of this and get the right help for your poor horse. I can't imagine how you must feel watching him suffer like this. :(
 
not to stress you out but has the vet considered pedal ostitis? my vet was sure my mare had fractured her pedal bone but turned out it was pedal ostitis, maybe worth having a wee look into? sorry your horse not doing too well (fwiw id change vets too)
 
The thing about fracures not showing early on xrays is true, but your vet's optiona are limited. Unless it is a very obviously seperated fracture (which won't happen in the foot) the way a break shows up on xray is through new bone being laid down showing as bright white. I gather there may be a funds/insurance issue but in an ideal world I would suggest a bone scan, as that shows changes sooner, and an MRI would be the most conclusive but its beyond most people's funds sadly, so bone scan (which means transporting horse possibly a fair distance to nearest facility) or wait 2 weeks to x-ray again are the basic two possibilities I would think, and treat as an assumed fracture in the mean time. I should hasten to add I am not a vet, I just studied this recently.

How it occured, well if your horse had really sore legs from the mud fever perhaps they got up awkwardly? Horses can hurt themselves in the stupidest of ways.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Gingerwitch, perhaps if you say what area you are in people could recommend a good practice . However I think you do need to change your attitude to the veterinary profession or you will never be able to build a decent relationship with a vet.
Click to expand...

Noo, GW just needs a normal human being NOT perched on it`s pedestal..like my vet in fact.:D
 
Still as lame as hell today - oh by the way did I tell you i had been told to poltice for 2 days Wed, Thur and it was took off on Friday.... now worried to death that the poltice would have had worse effects on an already possibly weak hoof.

If it is a "bruise" would I not see some improvement in a week ?, could a break elsewhere show us a hoof problems - what happens if two things are going on and the bruise on the sole is just because he has had the hoof testers on so many times by so many people.

I do not know which way to turn anymore - I am even thinking that the vets may have seen something and are not telling me ! stuipid I know, but now i have been told not to even take him out the stable to muck off, when last satruday i was being made to force him to walk for 10 mins twice a day
 
Stupid question - what about the x rays - will I be able to get a copy of them? or will I have to use a new practices x rays? Would a vet cover up a mistake ? honest question ?

I have always had very high regard for the vet involved - and yes I know they are human - it was another vet from same practice that was useless on Sat - I did complain, and they have adjusted the bill, but tbh I dont care what it costs I just want to know what is happening to my boy, so I can make a decision.

He was whickering when he saw me this morn, and every time he took a step he took a grunt - it made me cry.
I
 
It sounds as if you are getting nowhere, if the horse is that lame the vets should be doing more to find out where and why, has he been nerve blocked yet? It could still be an abscess, it may be very deep and not really respond to hoof testing or show on an x-ray.
Has your farrier been involved, I am sorry but cannot go back through the whole post, if he has not that would be my next call or ask to be referred for a proper work up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top