Vet practices taken over by big business

twiggy2

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Our local vet practice (of TV fame) has quite recently been taken over by Medivet, a shock to everyone I think, but 2 of the 3 partners have stayed on, the other left, many of the original vets gave stayed on, the service continues to be of an excellent standard and in many ways has improved, the facilities are improving, staffing levels have improved, the opening hours are more user friendly and they are genuinely open 24 hours a day. A month ago When Jake needed emergency surgery at 4am for a ruptured splenic tumour, he was treated by a dedicated night Vet who was fresh on shift with the support of a Vet Nurse also rota'd to work the night shift. Within 10 minutes of me getting him there he'd had blood tests and an ultrasound and was in surgery within 25 minutes. Under the old regime, Jake would likely have been treated by a Vet who had been out lambing all night, with a Vet Nurse dragged from her bed to assist, I have no doubt that had there been any delay he would have died but he didn't and I can only praise them for the care he received. He was surrounded by Vet Nurses and was treated like royalty, I made an impromptu visit the evening after his surgery and improved staffing levels meant he had a nurse sat in his cage with him, just holding his paw and fondling his ears, I was not concerned to leave him overnight because the practice is staffed 24 hours a day so patients are very well attended to overnight. I've only had positive experiences but perhaps have just been lucky with the ethics of the remaining partners still very much in evidence at this practice.
Often the sell out arrangement includes current vets/partners staying for a year or 2 they rarely seem to stay longer than this which is very telling. The practice I worked at did not completely change till the 4-5 yr mark at which point it went down hill rapidly.
 

madamebonnie

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There are large differences in the corporations who buy out the independent vets.
Some are awful to work for and cannot seem to retain staff as many of you have pointed out. Others are able to provide the support, training, reliable price structure that you would hope for. The difference is most likely in the practise manager or clinical director. Previous partners probably take their pay out and leave. Why do you think so many have sold their businesses? Its a difficult 'businesses' to be in. Vets are veterinary surgeons, not managers, directors and business-folk. But with newer structures and support these skills can be learnt along with continuing clinical skill development.

More and more people want specialised vets. There are not many who would chose a mixed practise for horses other than for vaccinations. I don't want to be messing round finding the cheapest when I need a vet. Thats why I insure and have chosen a good vets who provide a high level of service and expertise.
 

EventingMum

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Clyde are now part of VetPartners.

I was sad to hear this the other day, I had a couple of horses referred there a few months ago and one of the senior vets was proud of the fact they were still independent, how quickly things change. My local vets have been bought over too, at first it was fine although the personal touch seemed to have gone as the original owner retired then they announced they were stopping doing horses and farm animals so we had to look at vets further afield which was a worry in case we had an emergency. Fortunately, a practice owned by the same group has decided to base two mobile vets for equine and farm work in the area so we are using them. However, the original practice still had our cats and dogs registered but they've now stopped doing out of hours work and it will be a 30 mile drive to the practice covering for them so I'm thinking of looking for an alternative. Those with accessible local vets seem to be few and far between.
 

SOS

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Vets dont get me started. They arent regulated over pricing. This is why the animal welfare situation is in such a state. They should have a displayed price list on their website for routine visits and the cost of a consultation.

People dare not take their animals into the vets as they are scared of the costs. Those on lower incomes that dont qualify for benefits and many dont have insurance just dare not go to one and their animals suffer.

Some to give them credit have tried to make treatment more affordable offering life time vaccinations for a one off price etc.

What a load of rubbish. Pets, in particular horses, are a privilege not a right. If you cannot afford them, being of a lower income or unwilling to spend the money, don’t have them. Any vet practice will give you the price of a consultation if you ring up and ask. But to blame the veterinary industry for the animal welfare situation is ridiculous. The real problem is everyone thinking they are entitled to the latest puppy or to several horses then not expecting to pay out when a living being gets ill.

Those offering a fixed price for lifetime vaccination are the corporate practices. Super cheap buzz offers such as ‘£120 for lifetime vaccs’ means that people flood to their practices. Yet as mentioned by others, non routine consultations and operations are significantly more than the independent practice that charges £40 per year for a vaccination. Vets need vaccines and routine ops to be a sustainable business.

When my friend took her Guinea pig to the vets for eye drops £56 for 5 minutes and you need the medication there and then.

How many people have insurance for a Guinea pig who is a much loved pet.

I think £56 is a small amount to pay for a ‘beloved pet’ to be treated by a professional. Granted clients only see a small part of what they are paying for (they don’t see the rent of the practice, heating the building, staffing the phones and out the back, storing/ordering drugs). And again if you want to use an independent practice the drugs may be more, online pharmacy’s can buy in thousands of one drug, small practices may stock 4/5 bottles!

Like it or not a Guinea Pig is an exotic pet which requires greater knowledge to diagnose and treat. Lifetime insurance covers ongoing conditions. I pay £10 per cat a month for reputable insurance. Guinea pigs only live 5-7 years and would likely be a similar amount per month to ensure. So for the sake of a few hundred pounds your friend could of had the pig covered for life.

Then again we live in an age where people would rather insure their phone than their dog yet when asked which they “love” more it’s a no brainer....
 

ycbm

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When my friend took her Guinea pig to the vets for eye drops £56 for 5 minutes and you need the medication there and then.

How many people have insurance for a Guinea pig who is a much loved pet.

It isn't £56 for the eye drops.

It's £56 for knowing Guinea pig illnesses and what eye drops are needed.

It reminds me of a true joke told by mechanics.

Mechanic comes out to a car that won't start. He opens the bonnet, looks, fetches a hammer, smacks something inside the bonnet with it and says to the owner 'turn the ignition' and the car roars into life.

What do I owe you, says the owner?

Fifty quid, says the mechanic.

Fifty quid for smacking something with a hammer!

No sir, that was free. Fifty quid was for knowing where to smack it and how hard.

.
 

Goldenstar

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Also think the practices are facing with the horses the issue that people are now wise to issues insurance brings .
One being you buy a horse being pretty relaxed about the whole soundness thing because you going to insure something goes wrong so there’s then the rush to treat so everything gets thrown at the horse because you have a year to spend the limit .
At the end of the year you are left with the horse and the issue to manage for the rest of the horses life at your own cost .
This works to detriment of the horse often a young horse with say slightly dodgy stifles needs time weight control and the long period of reduced but the correct type of work a vet can’t suggest that even if they wished to because of the time limit thing .
A year is an arbitrary time limit i think it’s worth considering if that would be better all round if they kept the same limit of cost but increased the time to three years.
This would allow people to get young horses out of shoes and take a step back before jabbing stuff in their joints and throwing everything but the kitchen sink at them .
 

Landcruiser

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I work for a small animal practice which is owned by IVC (Independent Vetcare). The owners sold before my time, but are still there, and still running the practice as it's always been run, so I'm told. There is a bit of corporate stuff - we have mystery shoppers call - we have strict guidelines on how to answer the phone, for instance. But we have access to training, IT support, proper HR staff, proper accounts dept, access to cash for practice development and infrastructure...there are a lot of benefits. I don't think most of our clients are aware, despite signage. We run, to all intents and purposes, like an independent family vet practice. The practice management set our prices, which we review annually (which does not mean prices rise annually - they often don't change for years).

Don't get me started on the "Vets are only in it for the money" business. Our vets have literally wept over animals, they've had pets signed over that owners can't pay to treat, and they've brought them back to health and found good homes (or in some cases rehomed them into their own bulging menageries). They have bent over backwards to help pets, they've capped bills, they've made payment plans (hiding to nothing in so many cases, promised payments don't happen, and we chase and chase, but frequently it's hopeless. We on reception are subject to daily rudeness from clients who argue about their bills - there are some we know will not pay, ever - the old "I've left my purse at home" ploy once the animal has been treated and the meds have gone out the door. Maybe £50,000 owed to us at any given time by debtors?
At the end of the day, we are a business, with overheads, staff to pay, equipment and expendables to pay for, and years and years of training and experience available 7 days a week, right there when you need us. It makes my blood boil when people blame us because they have bought a pet and have no means or plans or intention to pay for its care when it's ill.
 

Kaylum

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It isn't £56 for the eye drops.

It's £56 for knowing Guinea pig illnesses and what eye drops are needed.

It reminds me of a true joke told by mechanics.

Mechanic comes out to a car that won't start. He opens the bonnet, looks, fetches a hammer, smacks something inside the bonnet with it and says to the owner 'turn the ignition' and the car roars into life.

What do I owe you, says the owner?

Fifty quid, says the mechanic.

Fifty quid for smacking something with a hammer!

No sir, that was free. Fifty quid was for knowing where to smack it and how hard.

.
Thanks i am not stupid lol as for your patronising comments, if that's all you have to say dont bother, they are not helpful or constructive.

Been in the industry for over 40 years seen the way the big companies have taken it over and the money they are ripping out of everyday people.

Again vets need regulating. They are also fuelling the insurance trade using this to make the insurance bills bigger which puts up the price of the premiums and so it goes on.
 

Kaylum

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I work for a small animal practice which is owned by IVC (Independent Vetcare). The owners sold before my time, but are still there, and still running the practice as it's always been run, so I'm told. There is a bit of corporate stuff - we have mystery shoppers call - we have strict guidelines on how to answer the phone, for instance. But we have access to training, IT support, proper HR staff, proper accounts dept, access to cash for practice development and infrastructure...there are a lot of benefits. I don't think most of our clients are aware, despite signage. We run, to all intents and purposes, like an independent family vet practice. The practice management set our prices, which we review annually (which does not mean prices rise annually - they often don't change for years).

Don't get me started on the "Vets are only in it for the money" business. Our vets have literally wept over animals, they've had pets signed over that owners can't pay to treat, and they've brought them back to health and found good homes (or in some cases rehomed them into their own bulging menageries). They have bent over backwards to help pets, they've capped bills, they've made payment plans (hiding to nothing in so many cases, promised payments don't happen, and we chase and chase, but frequently it's hopeless. We on reception are subject to daily rudeness from clients who argue about their bills - there are some we know will not pay, ever - the old "I've left my purse at home" ploy once the animal has been treated and the meds have gone out the door. Maybe £50,000 owed to us at any given time by debtors?
At the end of the day, we are a business, with overheads, staff to pay, equipment and expendables to pay for, and years and years of training and experience available 7 days a week, right there when you need us. It makes my blood boil when people blame us because they have bought a pet and have no means or plans or intention to pay for its care when it's ill.
Unfortunately some of the companies who have taken over practices are just ripping people off. They dont publish their prices so people wont go to them. I have complete sympathy for the vets and the debts they are owed and how hard they work.

My friend has just qualified and on her induction was given the sell sell sell talk and the targets she was expected to reach. Talk about pressure on a newly qualified vet.

Many now take a down payment before they start treatment. I just wish transparency was there as to their costs.
 

MotherOfChickens

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Don't get me started on the "Vets are only in it for the money" business. Our vets have literally wept over animals, they've had pets signed over that owners can't pay to treat, and they've brought them back to health and found good homes (or in some cases rehomed them into their own bulging menageries). They have bent over backwards to help pets, they've capped bills, they've made payment plans (hiding to nothing in so many cases, promised payments don't happen, and we chase and chase, but frequently it's hopeless. We on reception are subject to daily rudeness from clients who argue about their bills - there are some we know will not pay, ever - the old "I've left my purse at home" ploy once the animal has been treated and the meds have gone out the door. Maybe £50,000 owed to us at any given time by debtors?

Vet practices do carry a lot of customer debt, it was one of my jobs during quiet times to chase up! Weirdly, high end equine practices also carry a lot of customer debt -people just don't realise.
 
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catkin

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Vet practices do carry a lot of customer debt, it was one of my jobs during quiet times to chase up! Weirdly, high end equine practices also carry a lot of customer debt -people just don't realise.

Don't know if it still the case but years ago horse people, as a general stereotype, had a bit of a reputation for running up huge vet bills without paying - can't blame the vets.

As regards insurance payouts - that, I'm afraid, needs a mind re-set by all the players including owners.
 

twiggy2

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One of the biggest veterinary takeover companies now owns vets practices, hospitals, referral centres, laboratories, cremation centres, a very large (possibly the largest) online pharmacy, it's does not allow it's practices to purchase drugs at the same price as it's pharmacy or at a reduced rate from its pharmacy! (vets have to write clients a prescription and charge for it!), they also set up their own pet insurance company 2 yrs ago. It's a monopoly and very wrong, surely at some point it must be stopped. The money is just going round and round in circles.
Also for the record my practice manager was lovely as was my CD till he got the position when he became money driven.
 

MotherOfChickens

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Don't know if it still the case but years ago horse people, as a general stereotype, had a bit of a reputation for running up huge vet bills without paying - can't blame the vets.
.

their reputation isn't just among vets and its not unfounded ime unfortunately. No other sector seems to think that others should subsidise their luxury hobby quite as much.
 

Megan V1

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I use an independent vet for my animals and have done so for over 30 years, I trust them completely and have always received exceptional care and a call out in the middle of the night or even on Christmas Day has resulted in a vet I know and respect turning up. However I work for a corporate owned vet and the reason I don't use them for my own animals is because they only look after small animals, if you need emergency treatment you have to take your pet to an unknown vet and they are very expensive compared to my vets. The vetinary care where I work is fantastic and the vets and nurses are brilliant with both their clients and the animals but I will not be moving from my independent vets.
 

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My equine vets, who I’ve been with for 35 years plus, have just set up as an independent LLP (Limited liability partnership) company. Up to now they’ve been a part of a big local practice which evolved to form small animal, farm and equine sections. I’m not sure what has led up to them splitting off from the main group or whether the other sections will remain independent, but this will not have been a trivial decision.

ETA Those of us who follow The Yorkshire Vet TV series will have seen the upset caused by the takeover of James Herriot’s Skeldale vet centre by a corporate (Medivet, I think, though the Skeldale website is rather coy about this.). Former partners Peter and Julian could not agree on this, and Julian relinquished his partnership and left Skeldale. ETA 2 I think that Stiff Knees has already referred to this in an earlier post.
 
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Goldenstar

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Unfortunately some of the companies who have taken over practices are just ripping people off. They dont publish their prices so people wont go to them. I have complete sympathy for the vets and the debts they are owed and how hard they work.

My friend has just qualified and on her induction was given the sell sell sell talk and the targets she was expected to reach. Talk about pressure on a newly qualified vet.

Many now take a down payment before they start treatment. I just wish transparency was there as to their costs.

You just need to ask how much each procedure is and take control.
What do you think vets do they sell treatment they always have there’s nothing new in that.
If you want a job done and are a shop around type of person ( I am not I opt to send my animals to vets I know ) just ring up and ask .
No body is forced to take any animal to any particular vets the choice atm is huge .

One of the biggest veterinary takeover companies now owns vets practices, hospitals, referral centres, laboratories, cremation centres, a very large (possibly the largest) online pharmacy, it's does not allow it's practices to purchase drugs at the same price as it's pharmacy or at a reduced rate from its pharmacy! (vets have to write clients a prescription and charge for it!), they also set up their own pet insurance company 2 yrs ago. It's a monopoly and very wrong, surely at some point it must be stopped. The money is just going round and round in circles.
Also for the record my practice manager was lovely as was my CD till he got the position when he became money driven.

I have once seen drugs cheaper on the online pharmacy than I was charged I just rung up and said I won’t pay more than that and they reduced the bill no question .
You have to be in charge I think insurance has meant that sometimes clients are one step away from the costs in their minds and perhaps some vets have got used to clients not really questioning costs .
I know lots of people who negotiate the price of surgery all in .
I send some horses for work ups with a figure for diagnostics and treatment I won’t exceed that concertrates the vets mind the reaction of some vets to this very dispassionate and up front way of dealing with them shows that many are just not used to clients who spend lots of money but in a managed way .
They are used it’s insursed you 7 k to run through in 12 months and then other end those who don’t want to do much at all .
We are lucky so much can be done for horses now but it means you have to on the ball and prepared to take hard choices .
 

Smogul

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Don't know if it still the case but years ago horse people, as a general stereotype, had a bit of a reputation for running up huge vet bills without paying - can't blame the vets.
.


Anyone who has ever made hay and straw can testify to that, not just vets.

Sadly still the case. I work for a vehicle body shop partnership and they won't repair horse lorries any more as owners always seemed to expect work to be done for next to nothing. And were very slow at coming up with the money!
 

Dry Rot

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Thank you for the 'welcome back'! It is appreciated!:)

I haven't posted on this thread since my first one as I knew the subject would generate a good debate, which it has done. This subject needs to be aired; and probably regulated.

My main point was the difficulty in researching and comparing prices. I'd be happy to pay a premium for some vets -- and others I wouldn't on my premises even if they paid me!

I find it alarming that I can't get a price for a routine operation out of my "local" vets, let alone multiple quotes. One quote from a vet 35 miles away is not a "market" when there are five vets within the same distance. (35 miles is local up here).

What I want to know is whether the obligation on a vet to quote (as stated in my original post) applies to registered clients, only to those whose animals are insured, or to any animal owner who wants to know? Of course, they can refuse to treat certain species and refuse some as clients, but that's a different matter. I am not aware that I have been black listed!
 

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I no longer insure. My vets will always quote me for procedures, and will run though any proposed treatment and detail what, if anything, is essential and what could be reasonably left out and why. However, they know both me and the neds over many years. I’m not sure how they would deal with a stranger or very irregular client who just ‘rang in’ looking for a fixed price.
 

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Speaking for my own (IVC owned) vets, we always give an estimate where possible, and we have a set price for routine procedures, which is freely available and on our website. These things are available to anyone who asks, but we'd never be able give an estimate for anything non routine without seeing the animal first. You would be amazed at some of the questions we have been asked on reception. "How much to get a lump removed from my dog?" (that we've never seen). "My dog's hopping lame - how much?" And frequently, we get people who pay a consult charge, then kick off when they are asked to pay another (reduced) consult charge on second and subsequent visits. "I thought that was included" or "It's for his ears again. I've paid for that already..." So, by that reckoning, you pay a single consult charge and that covers you to see the vet as many times as you like until such time as the pet has recovered/died, eh?
Vets are private consultants for animals. Imagine if they charged the same as human private consultants charged...
 

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Of course a vet can’t quote a price for treating an animal they have not seen .
But often a procedure can be quoted for I had for example a quote for C’s kissing spine surgery .
Obviously this was done after xrays when they knew what procedure they would be doing .
I was also given choices radical or conservative and costs I choose the most radical intervention .
Only an idiot client would expect a quote for an injury a vet had not seen .However vets will always have manage the DMITO situation although I suppose in this corporate world they don’t write on the notes any more .
But it’s perfect possible to tell people a standard castration will cost between x and y and stuff like that .
 

ycbm

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Thanks i am not stupid lol as for your patronising comments, if that's all you have to say dont bother, they are not helpful or constructive.

Been in the industry for over 40 years seen the way the big companies have taken it over and the money they are ripping out of everyday people.

Again vets need regulating. They are also fuelling the insurance trade using this to make the insurance bills bigger which puts up the price of the premiums and so it goes on.


You've been in the industry for forty years and you don't realise that is not excessive for a vet to charge under £47 plus VAT for a receptionist to book an appointment, provide a building, waiting area and fully fitted surgery in which to see your pet, allocate a standard X minute consultation time which needs to be paid for whether used or not, be reimbursed for five years training and continuous professional development, pay for registration as a vet and professional insurance, diagnose an eye complaint in a guinea pig and provide eye drops for it, pay to process your payment, pay the accountant and auditors .......

OK


..
 

paddy555

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ETA Those of us who follow The Yorkshire Vet TV series will have seen the upset caused by the takeover of James Herriot’s Skeldale vet centre by a corporate (Medivet, I think, though the Skeldale website is rather coy about this.). Former partners Peter and Julian could not agree on this, and Julian relinquished his partnership and left Skeldale. ETA 2 I think that Stiff Knees has already referred to this in an earlier post.

my vet was the equivalent of Julian when our practice was taken over by CVC. He certainly knew what was going to happen to us all. There was a period after he left the partnership of something like 2 years when he was not allowed to treat former clients.
Does anyone now the terms for the partners (in general) when practices are taken over? I gather they have to remain for a period of time and presumably get a pay out? what sort of money are we talking about? (in general obviously)
 

catkin

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my vet was the equivalent of Julian when our practice was taken over by CVC. He certainly knew what was going to happen to us all. There was a period after he left the partnership of something like 2 years when he was not allowed to treat former clients.
Does anyone now the terms for the partners (in general) when practices are taken over? I gather they have to remain for a period of time and presumably get a pay out? what sort of money are we talking about? (in general obviously)

and out of interest (as it's not a situation I've been in) can they actually put restrictions like that on what would then be at that point ex-clients? Not wanting to put a good vet into trouble but surely, as long as the person concerned is professionally qualified, an individual can take their business where they like?
 

ycbm

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Nobody has to remain anywhere for any length of time. They negotiate it as part of the takeover, it gets them a better price to assure a smooth transition. Payments are often staged and dependant on predicted revenues/profits actually being achieved.

There has been some case law that you cannot restrict previous employees from competing with you for longer than six months because it is an 'unfair restraint of trade'. And you cannot in any way restrict a client who insists on leaving your practice to go to a vet they trust, as long as that vet did not actively recruit them (and try proving that without access to personal phone records and emails).

The value of a small business is dependant on so many variables it's probably impossible to judge. It's worth what someone will pay. There are some well known formulae for small business pricing but I don't know them off hand.
 

paddy555

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and out of interest (as it's not a situation I've been in) can they actually put restrictions like that on what would then be at that point ex-clients? Not wanting to put a good vet into trouble but surely, as long as the person concerned is professionally qualified, an individual can take their business where they like?

certainly did with ours. I used to ask him when I could come to him and he would give me the date.
 

MotherOfChickens

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and out of interest (as it's not a situation I've been in) can they actually put restrictions like that on what would then be at that point ex-clients? Not wanting to put a good vet into trouble but surely, as long as the person concerned is professionally qualified, an individual can take their business where they like?

there used to be rules that you couldn't open up a new practice within a certain mileage back in the day-it was one reason for an old running rift between two Newmarket practices-but that was a very long time ago.
 

catkin

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there used to be rules that you couldn't open up a new practice within a certain mileage back in the day-it was one reason for an old running rift between two Newmarket practices-but that was a very long time ago.

would that still be the case with competition rules and the like?
 
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