vet visit - overreacting?

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wills_91

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Honest opinions please.

Had vet our to my horse today as she has had a persistent cough, the wanted to take swab which involved going up the nose and down the back of her throat, fine. Vet arrived and it was new girl from the practice. After check up and quick discussion we got on to the swabbing. I did say to her she would probably throw her head about but would settle. First attempt got it in and down the horse threw her head up backing away veg let go of it a few head tosses and swab came flying out onto the ground - useless. Tried again and this time horse was wise so a wee bit more antsy. Couldn't get it done. She then started on about not wanting to push it and would be happier if she gave "a bit of sedation." Agreed. After much arsing around she eventually managed to get a vain and get the needle in, sedation in and my horse went down on her knees instantly, staggered up, fell into the door (crushing me in the process) then into the stable. She went down twice and was thrashing about both times she got up she was staggering all over the place fell several times, took a rug rack off the wall before eventually jamming herself in the corner of the stable to balance, at this point vet asked me if I could go in and try turn her around!! To cut a long story shot she ended up having to monitor her for a good 40 minutes. I have owned this horse for 7 years, ive had her sedated a few times for various reasons and we have never had a reaction like this. At one point she said "she was so antsy I have her the full dose as I was worried her adrenaline would over ride it, in hind site a smaller dose would have sufficed". She also kept going on about horses reacting differently to sedatives, it's most like she was trying to talk herself into believing she had done the right thing. Now I have got over the shock of it I'm really quite annoyed. Everyone at the yard is telling me to chalk it up as experience but I kind of feel like it should never have happened.
 
I wouldn't be happy at all, a lot of sedation can be done with a quick jab and if after 10-15 minutes if it's not working they can give a bit more, personally I think to give a full dose with no history of the horses' reaction to sedation is risky.
 
I've learned from experience (I.e waiting around for an hour to be able to load barely conscious horse) that my vets always seem to give more sedation than I am comfortable with so now I always ask for them to give the minimum and top up afterwards if required. In your situation I would be unhappy to say the least - very fortunate that the horse isn't injured (I presume?). Seems logical that the policy should be to err on the side of caution and start with a moderate doseage in case of sensitive/over reaction.
 
And as Goldenstar says speak to the practice, I have had it noted on my mare's notes that only my usual vet is to treat mine as the stand-in was just not up to the task despite having owned horses for 14yrs.
 
In your shoes OP I wouldn't have been happy. I'm normally fairly laid back and know vets have to learn somewhere but commonsense would have said start with a lower dose and top up if necessary. I had a vet over sedate a horse to stitch it and it wasn't a nice experience requiring three of us to hold her up against a wall and monitoring her for hours after. That vet defended himself saying he didn't like going near hind legs and he could teach me to stitch so I could do it next time - needless to say there was no next time. Even for clipping the vets we use now administer a smallish dose and top up if necessary, they don't give a maximum dose straight off. I would be speaking to a senior vet or practice manager.
 
Reading this and OMG! . . I would be well annoyed if my animal had been treated like this!,.,.you mention a new vet? I assume newly qualified? They won't be over doing the sedation in the future!
 
She's new to our practise I'm not sure how long she's been qualified for but I would think maybe not that long as she looks young. Okay I'm glad others don't think I'm over reacting, I was extremely upset but I've had a difficult few weeks so didn't know it that was affecting me more! I will definitely be going in and having a word with the lead vet then. She seemed settled enough at half 5 and my YO will check her again at 7 and 10. I'm not yet sure if she's done any damage to herself. There was no visible cuts ect but I would be very very surprised if she isn't sore tomorrow. Tbh I think the vet got a bit of a fright to and she definitely was not confident handling her. I am so annoyed at myself for agreeing to sedation when I really don't think there was a need for it.
 
LD&S said:
I wouldn't be happy at all, a lot of sedation can be done with a quick jab and if after 10-15 minutes if it's not working they can give a bit more, personally I think to give a full dose with no history of the horses' reaction to sedation is risky.
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It's a funny problem isn't it because sometimes if their blood is already up they do snap out of it quickly ...
My older mare has had a horrible reaction to domosedan despite having been given it without a problem in the past so these reactions do happen though few & far between.

That said, it does sound like a rather unsatisfactory visit so I'd be having a calm discussion with the practice asap I think. And make sure the dosage etc is added to her record. Mine doesn't get sedated any more :wink3:
 
I had this once, for a horse at the vet hospital, with a new vet. The sedation went in, and shortly the horse was staggering all over. I asked exactly what she had given, and when I had a moment wrote it down.

When the senior partner showed up he was shocked at the state of the horse, and that was 40 minutes later and he was at least standing by then, if lolling around. When I said what she had given he was rather cross.

That particular new vet made several errors and was banned from our horses. A while later and she was no longer working at that practice, and when I next caught up with her she was no longer working as a vet.

I take my horse to the vet hospital to see a partner for anything other than routine stuff just so I avoid this.

I would report it to the senior partner of the practice.
 
In my eyes she wasn't antsy I would have said she was fairly calm and her adrenaline wasn't high, when she's worked up she rears, she was not in that state, nowhere near it. My head is mince at the moment I should have put my foot down.
 
wills_91 said:
In my eyes she wasn't antsy I would have said she was fairly calm and her adrenaline wasn't high, when she's worked up she rears, she was not in that state, nowhere near it. My head is mince at the moment I should have put my foot down.
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I would not blame yourself, you only agreed to a bit of sedation, it was the vet who made a mistake. I do think the senior partner needs to know though.
 
I will be popping down to the practise and speaking with senior partner tomorrow. I've got a good relationship with them up until now.
 
I will only use certain vets from our practise after a bad experience with some others. My vet normally gives the minimum and tops up if needed, on one horse we now give a little more as he comes round very quickly and normally gets a top up, the other minimum is more than enough for us to get whatever job done. I would def speak to the vets and explain the situation, even if it's so it's noted that you don't get the same vet sent again
 
My mare has on her records that she has a pony measure of sedation after she nearly took out the farrier. In fact if I hadn't spotted that she was collapsing and hauled him out of the way he would have been under her - & she's a big girl. I got an apology because she'd been sedated before & the vets knew she was sensitive but screwed up. Luckily she didn't hurt herself.

I echo posters above about talking to the practice. They probably thought it was a straight forward callout for a new vet and constructive feedback is always useful!
 
I don't think you are overreacting at all, I had a similar experience when a new vet at the old practise came to sedate my draught mare for the farrier, told her she only needed a small dose to take the edge off like the usual vet did, she disagreed due to her size, I told her to give her the small dose but she whacked so much in, my girl immediately nearly collapsed and was propped up by the farrier and me for quite a while before she was actually safe to shoe.
I rang the practise and told them what happened and said I wasn't willing to have her back. Unfortunately the practise was short staffed and was relying on temps, the main chap was so booked up as people proffered him he had a massive waiting list, two further people were put on the not wanted listed, one for stating my "cob" was 150kg overweight (this would be the weight I got her at and one of their own vets scored her at a 2) and if she lost the weight she would look exactly like the horse in the next field, Ardennes to QH, erm no she wouldn't!
Changed vets soon after to a vet who had worked with draughts and will never change from him
 
That would really have piss*d me off your horse could have done some serious damage to herself and could have fallen on you, I think so many vets are so quick to sedate when sometimes a little time and patience and even some common sense is all that's needed, I would complain to your vets about it and I don't think I would be paying the whole bill either, I hope your horse is ok tomorrow it could have been a whole lot worse.
 
She is a big girl 16.3 Tbxid. I'm just so annoyed as the whole situation could have been so dangerous, we have never had a reaction like that to sedative so there wouldn't be anything logged for her as it should have been a straight forward visit. I'm not sure what dosage was given but I will enquire tomorrow. I will update tomorrow.
 
Sounds worth a chat to raise your concerns.
Frank has a note in his passport that he is allergic to sedation I imagine he presented similarly to your girl, he isn't but he is very susceptible to it and usually has a quarter dose tops!
 
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I'd have a word with the senior vet see what she gave.

That said my lad is notoriously NOT a cheap drunk (vets often err on the side of caution to start with but the normal horse dose doesn't touch him! His record is 4 top ups in 45 mins!) but has to be regularly sedated for spinal injections.

I have the senior vet at the practice looking after him and he has sedated my horse several times (around 10), the last time we went my horse had a bit of a funny turn and almost fell over a few times whilst sedated, honestly looked like he had had way too much but the vet checked and he had had less than his normal dose!

Sometimes it can just happen that way, perticularly if they are feeling under the weather
 
Orangehorse said:
Didn't suggest a twitch then? Would have been over and done with.
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You are having a laugh aren't you? Twitches very often don't work, even when applied by an expert!
I've only ever had one horse that a twist has worked on, even when it's a vet applying the twitch.
 
conniegirl said:
I'd have a word with the senior vet see what she gave.

That said my lad is notoriously NOT a cheap drunk (vets often err on the side of caution to start with but the normal horse dose doesn't touch him! His record is 4 top ups in 45 mins!) but has to be regularly sedated for spinal injections.

I have the senior vet at the practice looking after him and he has sedated my horse several times (around 10), the last time we went my horse had a bit of a funny turn and almost fell over a few times whilst sedated, honestly looked like he had had way too much but the vet checked and he had had less than his normal dose!

Sometimes it can just happen that way, perticularly if they are feeling under the weather
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This is what I plan on doing. I understand that she could have taken a reaction for any number of reasons but I think for my own peace of mind I need to know excreted how much was given. It has put me off having her sedated again for sure.
 
My instructor's horse nearly died being x rayed at vet hospital after being over sedated by a young vet, who was nervous and did not listen, when told the horse was sensitive to the sedative. I had a new vet sedate my horse because he put his head up when she tried to look at his teeth. I changed to a EDT after that one. In your place OP I would complain but I wouldn't expect much because I found that the seniors will often cover for their colleagues, rather then admit to any mistake.
 
I would never give a horse a full dose if I was trying to just get a swab. Total overreaction on the vets part! I went to get my geldings teeth done once and he went in and rolled about and pratted, as he does. She said immediately I might need to sedate him a wee bit and I was like wise up he's the size of a dog I'll pick him up and hold him if needed lol sure enough he didn't need it just needed a "word" from mum.
 
I know new vets need to rack up experience but it is worth speaking to your usual vet about the situation. If you hadn't had the horse sedated before she could be forgiven about the situation but she could have asked what your horse was like. Our vet always goes for minimum sedation and ups it as needed. You, the vet or your horse could have been seriously injured with a large animal staggering about. We have had young vets keeping their horses at our yard. There are some I wouldn't want near my horse for all their training, some lack common sense.
 
Do make sure that you tell the senior partner(s). Prior to our favourite horse vet retiring, he used to send his young vets to us for any routine visits and then ask us at the next visit how they had done :) There were a couple of occasions when we had less than satisfactory reports and we know that he dealt with the issues and the young vets learned from their mistakes.
 
I can understand the swab especially as you knew the horse was likely to be antsy so I can understand trying and thengoing for sedative.
You don't know if the adrenaline affected the sedation - it's a well known problem.
If you're not happy why not ring the practice and ask to speak to the senior partner and explain your concerns politely - I suspect this is just one of the joys of sedating a large fractious animal
 
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