vet visit - overreacting?

I find vets are very quick to sedate horses these days. It never used to happen. I understand that it's health and safety but it does mean that often horses don't get the chance to learn how to behave for the vet because they always get sedative even for simple procedures.
I've had issues with a vet who missed the vein several times when sedateing my pony. He's now very needle shy after been stabbed loads of times. He has to have sedation in to the muscle now which doesn't work as well so he has to have more than usual which I don't like.
 
She wasn't antsy though, I know this horse inside out and I'm sure had she persevered we would have got the swab done fine. The vet wasn't happy and IMO lacked confidence to deal with it and that I feel is why she wanted to sedate, I agreed to a small amount of sedative and that is not what happened.
 
It was not the desision to sedate that was wrong it was the amount of sedation .
OP I do hope you raise this with a senior vet or the practice manager I have never seen a horse react like that to a sedation she must have given a huge amount .
Did she ask you want the horse weighed before she drew the dose ?
 
My wonderful vet, who has now sadly retired, always adopted the softly softly approach to my slightly arsey large horse. Last year he ended up sedating in 4 goes, simply because he didn't want to do one big dose and it worked fine. He made a note of how much sedation was needed so we know if there's a next time. I will have to move vets as my new one is small animals only so I've asked if I can move horse's notes which he was fine about. Sadly I think there are fewer and fewer what I call proper "horse people" about, and sedation is an easy option. Some of the newer vets I've used have been very unwilling to use a twitch for some reason.
 
Goldenstar said:
It was not the desision to sedate that was wrong it was the amount of sedation .
OP I do hope you raise this with a senior vet or the practice manager I have never seen a horse react like that to a sedation she must have given a huge amount .
Did she ask you want the horse weighed before she drew the dose ?
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it could have been a simple reaction, Millie had a terrifying reaction to her sedation which was the same dose that she had previously received several times without issue. Never again, though!
 
Personally, I wouldn't be getting cross about it. The vet came to perform a procedure on a horse she hadn't treated before, which was not being particularly compliant about letting her do the job. Yes, it sounds like she over did the sedation, where it would have been more sensible to do it in stages, but these things happen. Every horse reacts differently to sedation - if one is particularly wobbly, I'm more likely to roll my eyes at the vet, and say "Well - he's more of a pansy than we expected!", than get my knickers in a twist about the wobbliness.

Sedation wears off pretty quickly, so it's very unlikely that any harm was done. Admittedly, in 25 years of working with horses, I've only experienced one actually going down while sedated - can appreciate that that must have been alarming. I usually position the horse where it has a wall to lean on before it is sedated, if at all possible.

I'm firmly of the opinion that it's not up to me whether my horse is sedated for a procedure. If my vet feels that it's needed (and she's actually very good at doing stuff without resorting to sedation), I respect her wishes - she's the one in the firing line if the horse starts to muck about, she's the one with hugely expensive equipment in splatting range, and she's the one who's introducing a foreign body to delicate internal structures. I'd also far rather my horse WASN'T moving about/chucking his head around, while a vet passed a tube down his nose!
 
Auslander said:
I'm firmly of the opinion that it's not up to me whether my horse is sedated for a procedure. If my vet feels that it's needed (and she's actually very good at doing stuff without resorting to sedation), I respect her wishes - she's the one in the firing line if the horse starts to muck about, she's the one with hugely expensive equipment in splatting range, and she's the one who's introducing a foreign body to delicate internal structures. I'd also far rather my horse WASN'T moving about/chucking his head around, while a vet passed a tube down his nose!
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I would agree with this in general - I do veto sedation for Millie for routine things now though... she'd be better having her teeth done if she was sleepy but I'm pretty good at manhandling her so the rest of us don't get unintended dentistry...I know this puts us all at some risk though so would be happy to stop if necessary. she is ultra compliant with scans/x rays (had enough practice).
However she has a known sensitivity now, without that I'd continue to follow the vet's lead.
 
conniegirl said:
You are having a laugh aren't you? Twitches very often don't work, even when applied by an expert!
I've only ever had one horse that a twist has worked on, even when it's a vet applying the twitch.
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I've found a twitch highly effective and work very well. They are great for short work needed as in this case where all vet wanted was to get a swab, something that shouldn't take more than 5mins!!
I'd rather try a twitch before sedation, safer and might be enough to get the job done.

Bill is a rather slow waker from sedation, not that he needs it often tbh, he's very obliging when it comes to jabs and vet can give him his vacs in the field without a head collar very easily! When he was getting his many stitches in his thigh last year I said to vet he normally only needs a half dose as that normally knocks him out for a good hour, unfortunately this time bill decided to wake early and vet was only 3/4 done. Luckily Bill is very good as vet was able to finish without topping up - apparently Bill looked round at vet, then looked away and stayed completely relaxed! Odd horse lol.
 
I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum, mine does need enought to flatten an elephant, but we worked that out by starting small and working up. She takes enough sedative for something that weights a Tonne, essentially a double dose.

However, I wouldn't have been happy with a vet just plumbing a whole dose in, she is right, different horses take different amounts.. give the minimum then top up!

That situation could have ended very badly, for you, the horse or the vet. A calm conversation is needed (although I see you are doing that today!).

Good luck!
 
While I can understand that it is upsetting to see your horse being oversedated (whether the vet overestimated the dosage or she reacted more strongly than anticipated), I can understand why. While you may not see your horse as being particularly difficult, this is the vets livelihood if she is trodden on/concussed from a flailing head etc.

I would also choose to sedate over twitch any day. I don't want to raise an old argument again ( ;) ), but I believe twitching to be unethical (and in this case a nose twitch would deform the nares in which you are trying to insert the swab).
 
When you speak to the senior partner you might want to raise the question of the bill - to double check you aren't going to be charged for the additional time the vet was there because she made a mistake.
There are some of mine I'm OK for novice vets to treat for simple things - they have to learn somewhere!
Others I insist on an experienced person - this was after having a young (and terrified) guy out to sedate a rescue (as in previous owners prosecuted in 2 year legal case - not just bought cheap from the sales!) pony for his teeth. The poor vet couldn't find the ponies vein - turned him into a pin cushion on one side - blood everywhere (grey so didn't help) then gave up and started on the other side - I was at the point of calling it a day (the dentist was horrified at how badly the vet was approaching the whole thing) when he finally got a vein and gave him some - he wasn't the pony to experiment on so I am now fussy about who does what depending on the horse involved!
 
conniegirl said:
You are having a laugh aren't you? Twitches very often don't work, even when applied by an expert!
I've only ever had one horse that a twist has worked on, even when it's a vet applying the twitch.
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First thing I'd try. Hardly ever had a horse that didn't settle down with a twitch, and it's quickly on and off. Sometimes just hold by the nose if a foal. Vets are far too quick to use sedation, with sometimes surprising consequences, let alone the accumulated costs. OP, I'd be checking my bill carefully when it comes. Horse shouldn't have needed any sedation for such a straight forward thing as a swab. You certainly shouldn't be paying for an inexperienced vet.
 
having had to use a twitch once (which was a complete failure and only upset the horse even more) I would never use one again.

I wonder if some of this sedation by vets to do relatively simple tasks is not due to the horses behaviour but due to the lack of expertise by the vet in handling horses. The same for dentists. My dentist does all of ours without sedation. Had to have a different and highly qualified dentist and he couldn't manage half of them. Same with vets. Had useless ones and they have trouble even sedating. Yet my good vet can get the needle in quickly first go and the horse is sedated before he knows it. The problem is that this good vet who can sedate can also work around horses and doesn't usually even need to sedate. Some of the rest are so poor they had to sedate to treat but lack the skill around horses to even sedate successfully. A vicious circle.
 
Thanks for posting this query. Hopefully the conversation with the vet went well. I honestly wouldn't have ever thought about it. My vets have always started with the minimum even when I warned one of mine took enough to sedate an elephant, even after noting it future experiences started low now I understand why. So again thanks for posting as I will now be more aware in the future for my horses.
 
It is common for horses to resent nasogastric things, and although not normally serious a nosebleed is dramatic. It's also common for them to react unpredictably to sedation especially if the adrenaline is already up. It is also common to twitch them to do it, the deformation of the nares is easily worked around. It's a bit of a no win situation for a young vet- if the senior partner had done the same (which as people are reporting, sedation has 'random' effects at times so could have done), would that still be his error? Obviously we'll never know if that would have happened or not but it could have done. We had a standing castration become a field anaesthesia...we had a senior vet fail to manage to do a resp scope on a 12hh mare at home as she got too upset. Unfortunately with biology these things happen!
 
SEL said:
Mine are drafts too bfg - & some vets seem to think they need enough to flatten an elephant!
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The bottom line is that every horse is different. I had a livery (big HW hunter) who literally did need enough sedation to fell an elephant in order to clip him. It took me and my usual vet a couple of times to realise this, but when a different vet came out, under instruction to give him an elephant dose, she was really unhappy to do it because he needed so much.

But no vet should over sedate a horse they don't know. I doubt the OP's vet will do that again in a hurry.
 
Auslander said:
Personally, I wouldn't be getting cross about it. The vet came to perform a procedure on a horse she hadn't treated before, which was not being particularly compliant about letting her do the job. Yes, it sounds like she over did the sedation, where it would have been more sensible to do it in stages, but these things happen. Every horse reacts differently to sedation - if one is particularly wobbly, I'm more likely to roll my eyes at the vet, and say "Well - he's more of a pansy than we expected!", than get my knickers in a twist about the wobbliness.

Sedation wears off pretty quickly, so it's very unlikely that any harm was done. Admittedly, in 25 years of working with horses, I've only experienced one actually going down while sedated - can appreciate that that must have been alarming. I usually position the horse where it has a wall to lean on before it is sedated, if at all possible.

I'm firmly of the opinion that it's not up to me whether my horse is sedated for a procedure. If my vet feels that it's needed (and she's actually very good at doing stuff without resorting to sedation), I respect her wishes - she's the one in the firing line if the horse starts to muck about, she's the one with hugely expensive equipment in splatting range, and she's the one who's introducing a foreign body to delicate internal structures. I'd also far rather my horse WASN'T moving about/chucking his head around, while a vet passed a tube down his nose!
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I'm sorry I don't agree with this. My mare raised head a few times, she certainly wasn't arsing about, we already had the swab in, had she not let go of it and let it fall to the floor then it would have been over and done with in 10 minutes.

The vet also wasn't the one in the firing line, she sedated her - heavily - outside on a concrete yard. She didn't wobble, she went down several times and the vet jumped out of the way and stayed well back whilst I tried to get her inside, steady her and position her against a wall to provide balance. She still wasn't her "usuall" self at 7pm last night despite being sedated at half past 11 that's 7 and a half hours later! She's had been under GA before and bounced back quicker! The vet wasn't confident in what she was doing therefore she felt safer to sedate, I strongly feel this was more for her benefit than my mares and I don't think over sedating an animal is something should be over looked with a shrug of the shoulders and "oh well you'll know for next time." My horse is not there for mistakes to be made on.
 
Did the vet ask you what the weighed before she drew the dose ?
I have a real thing about horse weights getting guessed .
Some vets do it all them time .
Drives me mad .
 
wills_91 said:
I'm sorry I don't agree with this. My mare raised head a few times, she certainly wasn't arsing about, we already had the swab in, had she not let go of it and let it fall to the floor then it would have been over and done with in 10 minutes.

The vet also wasn't the one in the firing line, she sedated her - heavily - outside on a concrete yard. She didn't wobble, she went down several times and the vet jumped out of the way and stayed well back whilst I tried to get her inside, steady her and position her against a wall to provide balance. She still wasn't her "usuall" self at 7pm last night despite being sedated at half past 11 that's 7 and a half hours later! She's had been under GA before and bounced back quicker! The vet wasn't confident in what she was doing therefore she felt safer to sedate, I strongly feel this was more for her benefit than my mares and I don't think over sedating an animal is something should be over looked with a shrug of the shoulders and "oh well you'll know for next time." My horse is not there for mistakes to be made on.
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Ok - wasn't looking to start a fight! Your original post made it sound like the horse was being a bit trickier than just raising her head a few times.

Vet should have sedated where she was planning to work. I wouldn't fancy moving a sedated horse through a stable doorway, and then manoeuvring it into position.

Did you speak to the practice?
 
I'm kicking myself for allowing her to sedate her outside. I spoke to senior partner - who knows my horse - she wasn't very impressed however said she would need to check what dosage she was given and speak to the vet in question so I am waiting to hear back from them. I do not want to cause a real upset over this but I do think lessons need to be learned from it.

Yes she asked me her weight before she sedated her.
 
I'd be horrified if a vet sedated my horse outside the stable tbh. My vets wouldn't dream of carrying out any procedure that would be safer done in a stable.
 
meleeka said:
I'd be horrified if a vet sedated my horse outside the stable tbh. My vets wouldn't dream of carrying out any procedure that would be safer done in a stable.
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I'd rather be outside, then they can't squash you against a wall.

I have a half Clyde who needs a half dose, as a lot of heavies do. I told my very experienced vet when he arrived for some x rays and he acknowledged what I'd said. We were having a great chat and as he walked across to inject him I thought there was a lot in the syringe, so I said it again and he squirted half of it out (but pretended he was going to do it anyway :) )

OP I'd want to know the dose, it sounds like a mistake was made :(. Glad you are both OK.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Yes, I agree. In fact I think I lost my ID to septicaemia because of under-dosing of antibiotic for cellulitis.
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I have had a disaster although not a fatal one with the same problem and not enough antibiotics.
We get the weight bridge out here from the vet say three times a year so I am always on top of it now .
Under dosing of antibiotics is common IMO and it's not good with resistant problems more common .
Guessing doses for sedation is not a great idea either .
I would never sedate a horse outside ( unless need drove us to it ) the last thing you want to do with a sedated horse unless you have to is get it through a door way and I would also never in a stable without mats and a bed .
 
Goldenstar said:
Did the vet ask you what the weighed before she drew the dose ?
I have a real thing about horse weights getting guessed .
Some vets do it all them time .
Drives me mad .
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I had a big ID with a tooth abscess that needed lancing - and therefore sedating first - and the vet said "what do you think he weighs, about 350 kilos??" Er, no a bit more than that .... That was the last time she was on the yard ...
 
Auslander said:
. I'd also far rather my horse WASN'T moving about/chucking his head around, while a vet passed a tube down his nose!
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Agree with this. I have an odd horse though who used to be sedated for his teeth rasping and he used to throw his head around under sedation. It was a bit tricky at times because it was difficult to get the gag on him and when it was on we used to have to make sure he didn't bash us with it. Now we can do it without sedative he doesn't do that.
 
You may have been of the opinion the horse moving its head and risking a nose blood was ok, the vet clearly wasn't - why could you not hold your horses head still for her to do her work ?
 
SusieT said:
You may have been of the opinion the horse moving its head and risking a nose blood was ok, the vet clearly wasn't - why could you not hold your horses head still for her to do her work ?
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And your point is caller?! If you took the time to read my posts you will see that I did manage to hold onto her, the vet was the one that let go.... The swab was in and down and she raised her head - vet let go, horse shook head, swab flew out. I was happy for her to be sedated, I was not happy with how it worked out. At the end of the day she is a horse she is always going to win in a battle of strength but I'm sure you could have held her head perfectly still.
 
surely you should have been competent enouguh to stop the horse raising its head. I mean how could you not have the skills to hold the horses head still?

Pointing the finger of blame is easy - you can't blame the professional if you can't control your own animal
 
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