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connemara92

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Hi guys!

I'm new in this forum. I'm a spanish veterinary student, and i joined this forum hoping you can help me.

I have to do a work for a subject called Sportive Equine Medicine. I'm really interested in barefoot horses and it's cares, and also in shoed horses. So I would like to know your opinion about that topic. I would like to know what do you think, if you have horses and how do you have them, and also which ones you think are the advantages and disadvantages of both ways.

My opinion is that barefoot horses suffer from more injuries and deformations of the hoof due to not having a shoe to protect it. I know from the existance of some shoes that are used for barefoot horses to train and compete when the field is hard, but appart from having to use them so often in my opinion, tha mainteinance of the barefoot horse is higher than if you just shoe them.

Anyway, here it is my opinion, now, I will wait for your answers, hope you can help me.

Regards,

Carmen.

PS: It would be so helpful if you tell me at the end of the post if your job is related or not with horses.
 
Just to you are aware with the language barrier the term for horses with shoes are 'shod horses'. So you shoe a horse but then it has been 'shod'. It sounds like an interesting project you are working on. I am sure you will get lots of replies in here, barefoot has gone big in the UK recently.

Here are a couple of articles you might like to read:

http://www.equipodiatry.com/article_barefoot_v_shod.htm
http://blog.smartpakequine.com/2013/03/barefoot-or-shod-whats-right-for-your-horse/

and here is a link from this forum debating the subject. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?405124-Should-you-go-barefoot-or-stay-shod
 
Whether I would have a horse shod or kept barefoot depends on the breed and hoof condition at the time . For example , my thoroughbred had awful feet - extremely soft and misshapen he had to have shoes for this reason and for the fact that his frog would make contact on and chaff on hard ground. My connemara has perfect hoofs however , since he has been shod on his fronts for such a long time - he was sore when I tried to take them off.
Have you also considered why some people think that white hoofs are weaker than black hoofs maybe research if there's any truth in that at all, and find out if more horses with black hoofs are barefoot that would help prove this theory - just a thought.
I'm a veterinary student , but not for equine - my own horse drives me crazy enough! :)
 
Cuddly Connemara said:
Whether I would have a horse shod or kept barefoot depends on the breed and hoof condition at the time . For example , my thoroughbred had awful feet - extremely soft and misshapen he had to have shoes for this reason and for the fact that his frog would make contact on and chaff on hard ground. My connemara has perfect hoofs however , since he has been shod on his fronts for such a long time - he was sore when I tried to take them off.
Have you also considered why some people think that white hoofs are weaker than black hoofs maybe research if there's any truth in that at all, and find out if more horses with black hoofs are barefoot that would help prove this theory - just a thought.
I'm a veterinary student , but not for equine - my own horse drives me crazy enough! :)
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As a veterinary student your post is rather concerning, I hope you get more informed lectures at some point in the future even if you are not going to do equine work.

The frog SHOULD make contact with the ground, that is it's function, a healthy frog will become strong and help support the structures inside the hoof.
It has little to do with breed whether a horse can go barefoot, a horse with poor feet can benefit from going barefoot as it will strengthen if given the time, management and conditioning whatever the breed, my tb had terrible feet when he came here straight out of racing with the correct care he is in full work barefoot, he now has excellent well shaped feet and the frogs that were non existent are now big and healthy.
There is no evidence that white feet are less strong than black, my ISH has one white foot and it is exactly the same as his 3 black ones, he is also in full work barefoot.

For the OP I have found the opposite so far regarding injuries, my tb came with a tendon injury having been shod all his working life, he is now in full work, galloping and jumping regularly with no sign of issues in the injured leg, none of my barefoot horses have suffered injuries to their feet, a few shod ones have, they are certainly not deformed in any way, they mainly self trim and while they require some care it is no more than the shod horses in my yard require and in many ways they are less high maintenance as they do not need shoes replaced when they fool about, they do not strike into themselves and there is less risk of them doing serious damage kicking another horse.
 
My opinion is that barefoot horses suffer from more injuries and deformations of the hoof due to not having a shoe to protect it. I know from the existance of some shoes that are used for barefoot horses to train and compete when the field is hard, but appart from having to use them so often in my opinion, tha mainteinance of the barefoot horse is higher than if you just shoe them
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What a load of nonsense.

Have a look for Phoenix Horse Forum and ask in there - plenty of folk working their horses barefoot in eventing, endurance etc.. The thing you have to remember is that a lot of us came to barefoot after conventional vet treatment and "therapeutic" shoeing didn't work and left us with little choice but to open our minds to other approaches. So many of the barefoot stories you hear are of horses who struggled to get to where they are today.

I have 5 barefoot - 3 completely sound, one chronic laminitic (PPID) and one who is prone to laminitis in the spring.

It's not just about whether the horse is barefoot - it is about all of the feeding, management, movement, addressing endocrine issues etc....the whole horse needs to be healthy - making the argument about simply shoeing is not understanding the part the hooves play in whole horse health

But if you came to my yard with the words you have used above in your original message, then I would decline to talk with you because you come across as closed minded and it would not be worth investing time in discussing it with you. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

As for your comment about "deformations of the hoof due to not having a shoe to protect it" - underlying that is your problem - you have an "ideal hoof shape" in mind and you need to open your mind to the real issue - it's not how a hoof LOOKS that is important, it is how a hoof FUNCTIONS that really matters. :) Hoof shape is determined by the loading forces above it - if you shoe to a shape and force the hoof into a shape you are removing one of the major adaptive mechanisms that the horse has.

Be more open minded please - for the good of the horse. As a vet, you have a huge responsibility to really understand this subject.
 
I do 'apologise' I wasn't quit specific enough for you ,his frogs when he was barefoot dragged along the floor and would bleed as a result - he required shoes to give height so this wouldn't happen.
As I said before I do not specialise in equine at all - and I would see my horse's problem as more of something that a farrier would deal with than an equine vet however, I would hope an EQUINE VET would now how to deal with this aswell as a farrier though however , ordinary small animal vets are not going to know the in's and out's of a horse's frog anatomy!
In my opinion breeding does affect the quality of a horse's hoof IN MY OPINION and from experience and other horse owners this is what we find. Yes, all horse's are different my friend who currently has my ex- racer is a highly qualified farrier and unfortunately cannot improve the condition of the feet enough to remove his shoes however she has another who is completely barefoot.
 
Cuddly Connemara said:
highly qualified farrier and unfortunately cannot improve the condition of the feet enough to remove his shoes however she has another who is completely barefoot.
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That's looking at it back to front - you remove the shoes to improve the condition of the feet.

OP - my horses have been barefoot for life and have never had lameness issues. I live in a very stony area and we hack on roads and on very very stony terrain. My horses are never footsore. I feed a high fibre, low sugar diet.

Maybe you could look at fibre based feeding v/s concentrated based feeding and their impact on hoof quality?
 
EQUIDAE said:
That's looking at it back to front - you remove the shoes to improve the condition of the feet.

OP - my horses have been barefoot for life and have never had lameness issues. I live in a very stony area and we hack on roads and on very very stony terrain. My horses are never footsore. I feed a high fibre, low sugar diet.

Maybe you could look at fibre based feeding v/s concentrated based feeding and their impact on hoof quality?
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How is it back to front ? He was shod when I bought him , I tried to take his shoes off permanently but he was too sore, I sold him to my friend who is a farrier who tried to take his shoes off as well and improve the condition of the hoofs . We both agreed that barefoot is best for a horse if it is possible, as in some cases the foot is made to fit the shoe not the shoe made to fit the foot - this is wrong as it's not the horse's natural hoof shape which is determined by how weight carried by the horse is distributed throughout the hooves. The natural shape for a horse's hoofs allows for better condition in my opinion.
 
Cuddly Connemara said:
How is it back to front ? He was shod when I bought him , I tried to take his shoes off permanently but he was too sore, I sold him to my friend who is a farrier who tried to take his shoes off as well and improve the condition of the hoofs . We both agreed that barefoot is best for a horse if it is possible, as in some cases the foot is made to fit the shoe not the shoe made to fit the foot - this is wrong as it's not the horse's natural hoof shape which is determined by how weight carried by the horse is distributed throughout the hooves. The natural shape for a horse's hoofs allows for better condition in my opinion.
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I thought you meant that you were waiting for the feet to come better (with shoes on) before you remove them? My view is to take them off and use hoof boots in the interim. The only way for hoof to improve is with movement to increase the blood supply and diet.
 
EQUIDAE said:
I thought you meant that you were waiting for the feet to come better (with shoes on) before you remove them? My view is to take them off and use hoof boots in the interim. The only way for hoof to improve is with movement to increase the blood supply and diet.
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Haha , sorry I've just re-read the original and I didn't mean to put improving condition before taking off shoes , it's been a lonnng day :)
 
Cuddly Connemara said:
Haha , sorry I've just re-read the original and I didn't mean to put improving condition before taking off shoes , it's been a lonnng day :)
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Tell me about it! I'm on a night shift so I have many more hours of it left :( I suppose today is my Friday and Monday is actually my Saturday...
 
Barefoot hoof which is (semi) white and strong as any other black hoof

hoof1.JPG


hoof2.JPG


Please excuse the event lines - not a lami issue, just that the rotated grazing wasn't all of the same quality.
 
I do 'apologise' I wasn't quit specific enough for you ,his frogs when he was barefoot dragged along the floor and would bleed as a result - he required shoes to give height so this wouldn't happen.
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So keep the rasp away from the hoof for a while and let it grow normally - sorry - this is self inflicted, bad trimming, bad hoof care.
 
I find the first post quite depressing reading. Here we have a vet student who is already deeply biased against barefoot horses, I really hope that they don't go on to be a Vet who is biased against barefoot. It is my dream to have Vets that are more open to barefoot rehabs and to having working barefoot horses.

Carmen, I am just a horse owner, but one of my horses was almost put down due to hoof issues. I got vet number four and farrier number two to look at her together in the hope that there could be a treatment for her... and guess what... it was taking her shoes off and doing a proper barefoot rehab. The horse that had poor hoof balance, hot tendons and was lame was quickly transformed into a sound horse with good hoof angles, no heat in the tendons and she was sound and ridden again including road work. She's still sound and unshod several years later. She's 50% thoroughbred and no longer has the 'typical TB hooves' that meant that 'she couldn't possibly go unshod' according to vets 1, 2 and 3, plus farrier 1 (who were all utterly WRONG). My younger horses have never been shod and are sound on all surfaces.

Please read about Rockley Farm and their barefoot rehabs. They have worked out statistics (look for 'project dexter') if that's helpful for you. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/

Please keep an open mind.
 
paddy555 said:
neither am I nor do I understand why as I bevel the walls on mine and it works well.
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But what is beveling? The 'roll'? Without this the hooves tend to flake off on rough terrain and I ride on really rough terrain - our favourite hack is a quarry ride.
 
brucea said:
If you look at that solar view the walls are "thinner" than they should be because there's been too much taken off when the trimmer has been "running the rasp around"
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The trimmer leaves the walls alone - doesn't 'tidy' the wall up in any way. The roll is necessary for her as if it is unrolled her hooves chip on the rocky rides.
 
Faracat said:
I find the first post quite depressing reading. Here we have a vet student who is already deeply biased against barefoot horses, I really hope that they don't go on to be a Vet who is biased against barefoot. It is my dream to have Vets that are more open to barefoot rehabs and to having working barefoot horses.

Please read about Rockley Farm and their barefoot rehabs. They have worked out statistics (look for 'project dexter') if that's helpful for you. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/

Please keep an open mind.
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I find it even more depressing. Because the OP first posted this, exactly as it is now, in the Introductions forum. I made the points that you have made, pointed them to rockleyfarm.blogspot.com to learn, and yet they have reposted on here several days later without changing a word.

Carmen, that's not the attitude which I would expect from a vet in training.
 
EQUIDAE said:
The trimmer leaves the walls alone - doesn't 'tidy' the wall up in any way. The roll is necessary for her as if it is unrolled her hooves chip on the rocky rides.
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presumably the horse is sound. If she is coping with rocky rides then the trimmer seems to be doing fine.
 
ycbm said:
Carmen, that's not the attitude which I would expect from a vet in training.
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Maybe not but it is doubtless the attitude you would get from many UK vets in training. I think some of the comments made in response to the initial post are rather harsh. That a vet student from another country, where they may not view barefoot as we do here, has taken the trouble to ask suggests they are trying to learn more.

Sometimes posts by the barefoot Taliban do come across as aggressive. Not everyone is a great supporter of barefoot horses and I suspect sometimes it puts their backs up making them less likely to be interested.
 
paddy555 said:
Maybe not but it is doubtless the attitude you would get from many UK vets in training. I think some of the comments made in response to the initial post are rather harsh. That a vet student from another country, where they may not view barefoot as we do here, has taken the trouble to ask suggests they are trying to learn more.

Sometimes posts by the barefoot Taliban do come across as aggressive. Not everyone is a great supporter of barefoot horses and I suspect sometimes it puts their backs up making them less likely to be interested.
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Hilarious to see your own saying in a thread like this - it was me who first coined the "Barefoot Taliban" to describe a certain faction of the barefoot movement who were as close minded in their own way as pro shoeing people were.

The only thing I find very unfortunate is close mindedness. Horses suffer when people are dogmatic and close minded.

There's a lot of "convention" in barefoot that needs challenged. For example, one topical to this thread is that you need to constantly bevel/roll or the hooves chip away. A horse who has adequate movement doesn't need that, the hoof wall will maintain itself. What then happens is that inexperienced trimmers or those who have read a book about it, over trim the wall and leave the ground bearing surface as a thin sliver on to the white line. Not what nature intended - just one of the many examples of a dogma led rather then observation led approach to managing hooves.

But the OP's words were clearly closed minded, and that needs pointed out to her.
 
paddy555 said:
Maybe not but it is doubtless the attitude you would get from many UK vets in training. I think some of the comments made in response to the initial post are rather harsh. That a vet student from another country, where they may not view barefoot as we do here, has taken the trouble to ask suggests they are trying to learn more.

Sometimes posts by the barefoot Taliban do come across as aggressive. Not everyone is a great supporter of barefoot horses and I suspect sometimes it puts their backs up making them less likely to be interested.
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The attitude which I was referring to was not the original post written in a language foreign to the poster. It was the failure to review and modify the original post after comments were made when it was first posted on another thread days before.

It's irrelevant whether the vet is British, Spanish or Martian, that kind of closed mindedness in any vet is very worrying, imo, and not only in relation to managing feet, but the whole animal.
 
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I think everyone who comes to these threads is predisposed to be for or against barefoot so there is a level at which we all have an opinion already.

I would not be too hard on the OP, firstly when you speak or write in a language that is not your own it can be difficult to convey subtlety. I come across a lot of people who don't have english as a first language and comments can come across as a bit too direct in translation when not intended.

We don't know how much experience she has had before her course and I don't know about veterinary training in other countries but it really isn't pro barefoot here. I use the RVC as my local vets and at best they tolerate the fact my horses aren't shod and talk about how difficult it is to have tbs without shoes. And these are the top vets that you get referred to that the students are shadowing and learning from. Had some useful chats with some of the students in the car park when waiting for the specialist or walking in hand but they will still go back to their tutors and have the shod viewpoint reinforced.

There were advertising for volunteers for a locomotion study on different surfaces and the horses had to be shod to take part.

So while her views should be challenged there's no harm in taking a softly softly approach.
 
YBCM - I understood what you meant.

I think that I always imagine that scientific people are searching for the truth. Therefore they want accurate evidence and unbiased research. They are willing to dismiss theories that are shown to be untrue. In a way this project could be a great opportunity for Carmen to go out and look at BF and Shod horses and learn, however this only works if the research is done and collated in an unbiased way.
 
ycbm said:
The attitude which I was referring to was not the original post written in a language foreign to the poster. It was the failure to review and modify the original post after comments were made when it was first posted on another thread days before.

It's irrelevant whether the vet is British, Spanish or Martian, that kind of closed mindedness in any vet is very worrying, imo, and not only in relation to managing feet, but the whole animal.
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"failure to review and modify" Good heavens above. This is a forum. You are commenting about her attitude? I don't find your posts do much to welcome a prospective vet. Lets cut her some slack, we are not her employer, she is writing, in a foreign language based on her knowledge to date and unlikely to obtain more at this rate. It would be a shame if someone in that position went away thinking barefoot was just a load of close minded people rather than learning.
I don't see how you can accuse anyone of being close minded if they have posted on here stating what they think and then asking about the subject.
 
brucea said:
There's a lot of "convention" in barefoot that needs challenged. For example, one topical to this thread is that you need to constantly bevel/roll or the hooves chip away. A horse who has adequate movement doesn't need that, the hoof wall will maintain itself. What then happens is that inexperienced trimmers or those who have read a book about it, over trim the wall and leave the ground bearing surface as a thin sliver on to the white line. Not what nature intended - just one of the many examples of a dogma led rather then observation led approach to managing hooves.
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I couldn't see the walls on the pictures clearly enough, even with a magnifying glass, to comment if they had been overtrimmed. I wouldn't comment they had been overtrimmed anyway unless someone was saying that their horse was sore after trimming/couldn't do the work. Who would I be to say the trimmer was doing a bad job on an apparently sound riding horse?

However I do know that, possibly only for my ridden horses, beveling/rolling helps them and I do it on a regular basis. They get perfectly adequate amounts of movement as they are ridden daily (unbooted) 7 days a week. Two tracks of that each day are over rough stones. I find rolling helps keep their feet in good condition. If they were left to nature they probably wouldn't go out on the surfaces I ride them on, certainly not at a speed I dictate along with the weight of a saddle and rider. I don't worry too much about dogma and convention, I do what works.
 
Connemara92, there are a lot of people on this forum who will gladly give you information about barefoot horses. Several people already have, and several have recommended that you take a look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com.

More people will probably contribute if you give posters some feedback. Can you please let us know what your thoughts are about the information which you have been given so far? And whether it has changed your mind about barefoot causing hoof deformity?

Don't worry about your English, it's a lot better than most of us could write Spanish!
 
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