Vets discuss barefoot

Clava said:
I sent in my answers :)
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Good, me too. I know that the FRC have been moving in this direction for sometime, so gathering information and experiences from farriers and clients is a sensible move.
Its a wise organisation that recognises the need to move with it's clients and changing lifestyles.
 
horserider said:
Good, me too. I know that the FRC have been moving in this direction for sometime, so gathering information and experiences from farriers and clients is a sensible move.
Its a wise organisation that recognises the need to move with it's clients and changing lifestyles.
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I nearly choked over my coffee when I read the above.:rolleyes:
I had just read this.
http://www.farrierytraining.co.uk/n...ead-the-latest-ofsted-inspection-report-here/

wise and FRC are strange words to include in the same sentence. People were wanting action from the FRC as far back as 2000 that I can remember. Still, it is good that they are finallly getting there.

Now lets hope they teach their farriers how to trim barefoot horses and how to deal with the issues in order to produce barefoot performance horses.
That I suspect is going to take a wee while longer.
 
Hey, I'm no fan of the appalling standards of adult education in this country. Its not just farriers, my OH cannot recruit a graduate engineer from this country, his office is more like the United Nations than a company in Central England.
 
Thanks horserider... Will charge up my device and get writing! :)

Although I can't see how they have been moving in this direction though, I thought they were actively opposed? Certainly their more traditional members are very vocal about their own hatred at unshod/barefoot.

So, just wondering if older farriers need re-education, you know like a CDP in healthcare or any other profession come to think of it.
 
I recall reading about consultations WFC had with some barefoot organisations, the two main ones, I think. Certainly in regard to LANTRA they have, and probably something else which I can't recall, although an apprentice did mention that they'd had sessions with barefoot representatives.
One of the lads was doing a barefoot trimming course along side his farriery training because it would give him more diversity and also, because it was a quick course and he could earn some money while he was an apprentice.:rolleyes:

Some farriers are dinosaurs, but in my experience, I've been lucky, even the older, no nonsense, old school guys, have been very happy to express a preference for leaving shoes off when the horse doesn't need them.

My impression is that they see the difficult feet as something they need to fix with shoes whereas the trimmer sees it as a time for not fixing with shoes.
 
Oh yes, I mean, I'm not tarring all with the same brush. I could name a couple of forward-thinking farriers but definitely more less forward ones!

I think some farriers are employed on the curriculum of the EPAUK (I know a bit less about UKNHCP so wouldn't like to quote) to teach and some are there possibly to be taught. https://www.facebook.com/EquinePodiatryTrainingLtd

I digress... I just think it's about time all the hoofcare pro's came together rather than bicker like children. Integrate/Evolve.
 
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I agree with you. I'd like to see both sides working together. Things do need to change with not only farriery, but with owners taking a more proactive role and responsibility.
 
It is rather staggering that owners can know so much about a horse and horse-riding itself but when it comes to feet, teeth and the back... it's like :confused::confused::confused::confused: scary territory.

This included me say, circa 2008! I was clueless about feet.
 
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horserider said:
I recall reading about consultations WFC had with some barefoot organisations, the two main ones, I think. Certainly in regard to LANTRA they have, and probably something else which I can't recall, although an apprentice did mention that they'd had sessions with barefoot representatives.
One of the lads was doing a barefoot trimming course along side his farriery training because it would give him more diversity and also, because it was a quick course and he could earn some money while he was an apprentice.:rolleyes:

Some farriers are dinosaurs, but in my experience, I've been lucky, even the older, no nonsense, old school guys, have been very happy to express a preference for leaving shoes off when the horse doesn't need them.

My impression is that they see the difficult feet as something they need to fix with shoes whereas the trimmer sees it as a time for not fixing with shoes.
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Compiling the NOS was as far as any working together went I think. http://www.lantra.co.uk/getattachme...4d/Equine-Barefoot-Care-NOS-(April-2010).aspx

The farrier training (and vet too) is in the dark ages it seems to me. Getting owners experiences is one thing but hoof care should be driven by what is good for the horse not owners or farriers/trimmers. In the 21C we are still not looking to preventing a myriad of hoof problems just engaging in crisis management. Imho we need some radical lifestyle and feeding changes for horses throughout their lives but this is never/rarely addressed until problems rear their ugly head. Crisis management drives the human devised medical model and supports the myriad of interventionist treatment options that are often not helping in the long term. We need to learn how to help horses grow and keep strong, healthy hooves and this starts at birth.

Here's a link to the Rockley Farm blog about this article with which I happen to concur strongly. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.ie/2013/05/hooves-from-veterinary-perspective.html
 
Yep, have to agree with some of her comments.

I am just pleased that vets are starting to take NOTICE even. Even the consideration of palmar hoof health is a step in the right direction.

What we now need is proper consultations with the pioneers and researchers and allow the science to be taught in context. I fear that vets will take tidbits of what they like and apply it to some patchy "rehabilitation" programme that actually could fail the horse even more in the long run.
 
thanks for posting this, have popped a reply over.

Def agree that owners need a better understanding of feet/backs etc, but when there is so much misinformation around then that can be easier said than done!

Equally, if you call in an expert in a certain area, they ought to be competent and at the very least, do no harm.

We simply cannot know enough about the myriad of horse issues not to need one of these experts, but we do need to be able to rely on them. Knowing the basics of teeth/backs/tack/feet etc is a huge area! I'm not saying for a moment that this means we shouldn't know this, but throughout a lifetime of horse ownership we are always going to be on a rather steep learning curve!

Re farriers and vet info, I was shocked to read a piece in a freebie horse mag written by the president of NAFBAE and an approved training farrier. Looking a sole bruising considered many shoeing and pad options, but only mentioned nutrition in the opening paragraph, never to be considered again. How a whole article can be written (while skimming past laminitus and flat thin soles) without considering nutrition and better quality growth in response to work is beyond me. I know it is a limited space, etc, but under treatment or prevention surely it warrants a brief mention?!
 
Yes but that's how it's always been as far as my own experience (up unti 2008ish).

Feet = farrier
Everything else = vet

And tbh, in the places I have kept horses it was pretty standard that the farrier came to sort out sick hooves. None of the many farriers I've ever met have even whispered the word "nutrition" or even asked what the horse/pony was being fed. Then "Farriers Formula" was invented and a few started suggesting that for crap feet but not in any sort of consideration to what they were already getting... mostly, you got told what to slap on if there were problems. Certainly, one was selling Kev Bacons out the back of his van!

Possibly I would still have been in that place if it wasn't for my boy at the time so I guess much of it is on a need-to-know basis... after all, if it ain't broke why fix it.
 
tallyho! said:
after all, if it ain't broke why fix it.
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It's broke when things have got really bad and the horse breaks down and can't perform. Often things have been going wrong for a long time prior to breakdown so I think we have to learn to see 'broke' earlier.

I was watching my Pete Ramey DVD series again yesterday and he says words to the effect... "many horses are running around with sick hooves for years before they finally break down completely".
I have recommended it before but I highly recommend it for anyone interested in learning more. Imho it is well worth the money and saving up for or buying between a few peeps. http://www.hoofrehab.com/underthehorse.htm
 
tallyho! said:
And tbh, in the places I have kept horses it was pretty standard that the farrier came to sort out sick hooves. None of the many farriers I've ever met have even whispered the word "nutrition" or even asked what the horse/pony was being fed. Then "Farriers Formula" was invented and a few started suggesting that for crap feet but not in any sort of consideration to what they were already getting... mostly, you got told what to slap on if there were problems. Certainly, one was selling Kev Bacons out the back of his van!

Possibly I would still have been in that place if it wasn't for my boy at the time so I guess much of it is on a need-to-know basis... after all, if it ain't broke why fix it.
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True, though tbh I've never had any better nutrition advice from a vet lol! I guess I feel strongly that nutrition should be part of a farriers remit because without decent nutrition in place then you can wind up seeing alot of the common problems that farriers will come up against.

The big problem is that it can be broken, but it might take months and years before damage comes to light.
 
ThePony said:
The big problem is that it can be broken, but it might take months and years before damage comes to light.
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Yes but we can learn the basics, even me. :D

Quote from blurb about the DVD series above.
"It focuses on the ability to identify and recognize a truly healthy equine foot and demonstrates steps taken to drive a pathological hoof towards a healthier state. "
 
amandap said:
It's broke when things have got really bad and the horse breaks down and can't perform. Often things have been going wrong for a long time prior to breakdown so I think we have to learn to see 'broke' earlier.

I was watching my Pete Ramey DVD series again yesterday and he says words to the effect... "many horses are running around with sick hooves for years before they finally break down completely".
I have recommended it before but I highly recommend it for anyone interested in learning more. Imho it is well worth the money and saving up for or buying between a few peeps. http://www.hoofrehab.com/underthehorse.htm
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I know that now, but how would you have told the old me that anything was wrong? Horse was competing. Not lame.

Looking back I can see the hooves WERE awful! Until the horse WAS lame, I didn't even question feet. I know I was in the majority. If you'd have said barefoot to me then, I'd have probably laughed and said what most people say to me now... Don't be ridiculous. Horses NEED shoes. ( some may do)

Now that I consider myself a barefooter, I am in the minority. I don't know what made me change, perhaps having a scientific background helped I dunno but I would never have come across Pete Ramey et al if he hadn't gone lame! He is right... How many horses out there have sick hooves but are still silently suffering? I am truly guilty.
 
amandap said:
Yes but we can learn the basics, even me. :D

Quote from blurb about the DVD series above.
"It focuses on the ability to identify and recognize a truly healthy equine foot and demonstrates steps taken to drive a pathological hoof towards a healthier state. "
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How do you even get this info to the average owner though? Most barefooters become barefooters because something went wrong and they looked for answers... Usually when the vet says "PTS"... So they come to it from a pathological perspective and indeed learn a lot because they are trying to learn how to fix the problem.

How do you learn when you don't know you have anything TO learn?

I did BHS and no one said very much about hoof anatomy and nutrition. You had to label a diagram to show where the horses points were, tack and care and that was about it... Still got my book! Like I say, unless you needed to know, you don't.

So, I guess, it is up to the professionals to know the stuff to be able to deliver the care even if the owner doesn't have a clue. After all, they are being paid to keep a horse sound. I think it should extend to being sound without shoes if possible.
 
My farrier must be totally one of a kind-he is an "older generation" farrier-but it no way old in my eyes-he is totally open about what the horse needs over the needs of owner.I have one that is totally barefoot,my farrier trims him and changes the way he is trimmed according to what he feels and sees,I have 3 shod in front with no shoes behind and 1 fully shod.As he always says and I totally agree that you must be open minded and open to change as every horse and its needs are different.He is also very into the nutrition side of it and we always discuss any feed changes or any changes at all to each horse. I know I am very lucky to have someone like him but he does spend hours reading up on everything from feet to feed to Physio.
 
tallyho! said:
I know that now, but how would you have told the old me that anything was wrong? Horse was competing. Not lame.

Looking back I can see the hooves WERE awful! Until the horse WAS lame, I didn't even question feet. I know I was in the majority. If you'd have said barefoot to me then, I'd have probably laughed and said what most people say to me now... Don't be ridiculous. Horses NEED shoes. ( some may do)

Now that I consider myself a barefooter, I am in the minority. I don't know what made me change, perhaps having a scientific background helped I dunno but I would never have come across Pete Ramey et al if he hadn't gone lame! He is right... How many horses out there have sick hooves but are still silently suffering? I am truly guilty.
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I know exactly what you're saying and have been there myself but that's why I post the link the the DVD's over and over again and post about the little I know.
Owners tend to leave problems to vets, farriers and back people etc. and often only act when the horse is saying it's had enough ie. it's got very bad.
I believe we need to switch round and start from a point that helps us understand horses as a species as opposed to a tool.
How do you change a culture is the question I suppose... little by little, drip by drip. :) It's just such a shame so many of us have learned from broke horses. :(

ps. fusspot, your farrier sounds fantastic. Listening to the horse is what is vital and if we can learn to see smaller and smaller clues hopefully we will get better and better at picking things up earlier.
 
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It is isn't it... I'm with you on that. Many novice owners do wait until its broke... With time comes experience and thank goodness for places like HHO!

And the Internet in general!

:)
 
fusspot said:
My farrier must be totally one of a kind-he is an "older generation" farrier-but it no way old in my eyes-he is totally open about what the horse needs over the needs of owner.I have one that is totally barefoot,my farrier trims him and changes the way he is trimmed according to what he feels and sees,I have 3 shod in front with no shoes behind and 1 fully shod.As he always says and I totally agree that you must be open minded and open to change as every horse and its needs are different.He is also very into the nutrition side of it and we always discuss any feed changes or any changes at all to each horse. I know I am very lucky to have someone like him but he does spend hours reading up on everything from feet to feed to Physio.
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Whatever you do... Do NOT let him retire! :)
 
Most barefooters become barefooters because something went wrong and they looked for answers... Usually when the vet says "PTS"
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This is exactly what happened to me. The thing that's so frustrating is that three different Vets (flipping 'equine specialists' too :() saw my mare and all of them were happy with her hooves and actively encouraged me to stay with the same farrier because in their opinion he was doing a good job with my mare's typical Tb hooves.

Unhealthy shod hooves have become 'normal' and what people (this includes many owners, vets and farriers) are used to seeing. It's so very, very sad and a huge mountain to climb in terms of changing people's expectations of how hooves should look and function.

If I hear the phrase typical TB feet again - I may scream.
 
That's the big frustration sometimes isn't it faracat? The "specialists" that fail your horse that you would do anything for! If THEY haven't a clue, what hope does the average owner have?

How many have actually been PTS as a result of this errrr.. Lack of knowledge?

"Typical tb hooves" excuse is probably why so many do end up saying goodbye to life on earth.
 
I just want to add, that my vet, having gone through malts rehab with me then, my friends whole yard going barefoot, he has embraced the whole thing! I wonder how many are like him...

Still, not sure he would stick his head up above the parapet and say "hey, there's something in this" like the US vets have...
 
I should point out that I did seek advice from Vet number four, who actually said that her hooves were unbalanced! Hooray! I'm keeping that one.

I do think that horse owners need to have a good all round knowledge on all things equine (saddle fitting, hooves, feeding etc...), as you have to be able to weed the good advice from the bad.

ETA. My mare wasn't even a pure TB and like the Vet in the H&H article, that was enough for them to expect her to have crappy hooves.
 
Fab links here - always like a bit more info on feet :)

I'll be sending in my answers the the FRC - I'm just glad that they finally seem to be collecting even anecdotal evidence on the topic - it shows a slight change in attitude towards barefoot.

I think one of the main things that sent me towards the barefoot end of the spectrum is my background. I'm a scientist by choice and training, with a background in animal & human biology and physiology.... I also didn't start really riding till I went to Uni, so didn't have the horsey background informing my opinions... It never really made sense to me how shoes could be beneficial for the feet, but I just assumed that since that was the way it was done, it must be for a reason. So glad for all the forums and info online - I'd never have heard about barefoot working anywhere else!

I do find that I need to bite my tongue sometimes though when others talk about shoeing - for example one of the girls wants to start hacking her laminitic out, but won't till he has back shoes on. Because last time, she took him out for an hour ridden and he got sore...after lami attack and not hacking for a year! Don't acclimatise him, or deal with the underlying issue - just pop some shoes on!

Mind you, I'm exactly the same in other areas - I've sailed all my life, and despite having read all the info and specs, still can't get my head round yachts with unstayed rigs, and would never buy one like that... Difficult to shake off early learning and preconceptions!
 
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