Vets letter to RCVS

[Redders]

That is disgusting, I am so sorry you were treated like that and that it doesn't sound like an uncommon scenario for vets.

I’m going to apply some of the feedback from this thread to help interactions but also just accept that some people will react that way regardless of how well I present things. People are upset, worried, scared, some feel guilty for whatever reason, and I’m the immediate person to react to. I have to accept that because I’ll expire from trying to be the perfect vet for every single owner I see (impossible task) and beat myself up if I don’t succeed every time!

I am learning acceptance while still aiming for my best.

 

[Lurfy]

Crikey Redders and the other vets who have posted here, you really have a tough time with some clients. I am really surprised that people are offended by asking about insurance or cost estimates. I have used excellent vets for the 50 years I've had horses. Both young and old, I have the utmost respect for the profession. I work in the science field and am well aware they could use their scientific minds in other professions and make more money with less stress. I am extremely grateful they chose vet science but totally understand why they might leave it.

 

[scats]

I had one today, didn’t ask about money at all, pet was really very sick. I said I was worried, I said why, I said possible diagnoses. I listed initial investigations and why needed and what next steps might be. I explained I was concerned we would find something we couldn’t fix and that saying a peaceful goodbye now was an entirely reasonable option. I had already given pain relief as the first thing I asked was if they would consent to me giving that straight away. The owner decided they wanted to investigate to see we could find something treatable. I said ok I’ll just get you an estimate and consent form. They swore at me and rolled their eyes, and said ‘of course, all about the money, my dog is dying here and you just want the money’. I hadn’t even given them the proposed cost at that point, just said I would get an estimate.

I HAVE to give an estimate before I start treatment. I HAVE to. The estimate was over 1000k for what the owner said they wanted, they have to be aware of that before I start.

That’s awful. I have no problems at all with being asked whether the animal is insured and being given estimates for treatment or diagnostics. I assumed it was just general policy so I wouldn’t even question it.

My tortoise wasn’t insured, so they gave me estimates for everything before we went ahead. It made no difference because I was going to pay it regardless, but I can’t understand why anyone would get offended by this.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I’m not insured and my vets are good at keeping costs down. This is not because they ‘milk’ insurance but because I choose to be conservative a lot of the time, and I also go for ‘treat what we think it is’ and forgo a lot of diagnostics, as long as vet is fairly confident. After all that’s what GPs do!

But I also recognise there is a degree of risk to that and some people definitely prefer the ‘throw the kitchen sink at it’ approach and should be offered the choice.

 

[ycbm]

I’m going to apply some of the feedback from this thread to help interactions but also just accept that some people will react that way regardless of how well I present things. People are upset, worried, scared, some feel guilty for whatever reason, and I’m the immediate person to react to. I have to accept that because I’ll expire from trying to be the perfect vet for every single owner I see (impossible task) and beat myself up if I don’t succeed every time!

I am learning acceptance while still aiming for my best.

I'd have you as my vet any day of the week Redders. Every word you've written on this thread says what a great vet you are.


I'd also like to say, not to you but to anyone who may have read my posts on any way not intended, that I've written what I've written on this thread to try to help vets protect themselves from unjust accusations and not because I'm offended in any way myself about being asked if insurance is paying.
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[SEL]

I let someone go in front of me in the small animal vets a few years back. I was just there for jabs and they came in clutching a small dog swearing at the poor receptionist. I think it had eaten something.

I did that sympathetic nod and hand wiggle (very British) which easily translated to "what a knob but I'm happy to wait rather than listen to that". It was a large waiting room and once the knob was safely in with the vet we all started laughing. The pure "WTAF was that all about".

I'm sorry you got that behaviour Redders. It does seem to come as a surprise to many pet owners that they have to pay for treatment.

 

[Goldenstar]

Asking if a pet is insured is not a ‘swear word’ or a way to find out if we can get all that extra money from insurers. The treatment cost is the same. I ask because I may discuss the course of treatment in the animals best interests and that owner may feel the need to go in to financial difficulty by going with that recommendation because it’s the best one and they love their pet they want the best for them even though they can’t afford it. I want to be prepared for those types of conversations. Or because we may not do direct claims with that company and the owner may be basing their decisions on the assumption we will. It’s an open discussion. It’s not a dirty sneaky discussion and I genuinely don’t understand why it offends people so much.

I can only speak for myself and I have kept horses a long time .
Now I don’t get asked the insurance question with my own vet because they have a screen that tells that it’s an uninsured pet .
I usually know the vet I am seeing .
But I know some vets pad insurance bills because it’s been blatantly said to me in front of a sick animal on more than one occasion .

 

[ycbm]

But I know some vets pad insurance bills because it’s been blatantly said to me in front of a sick animal on more than one occasion .

I think the problem is that there are so many vets that there are bound to be a few like that, it's the same with any profession you can name. I feel very sorry for the ones with corporate employers being judged on how much revenue they bring in.

I've also reconciled myself to heavy use of diagnostics on the basis that the machines and techniques are available and it's unreasonable to expect younger vets trained on using them to start treating on the basis of probability, as the "old school" vets did. They were wonderful, but they are dying out and those days have passed.

My advice to anyone wanting conservative treatment plans is to use a vet practice which does not have a hospital as your day to day vet. You won't then have to be paying a share towards the cost of the facilities and equipment, and can choose a trip to hospital only when the availability of those facilities will help. I moved away from a hospital based practice because of the pressure I was facing to take horses to hospital which could be treated just fine at home. You should be aware, though, that if you start conservatively with a problem that turns out to be complex, you may run out of time on your insurance and be stuck with big bills you could have avoided. It's swings and roundabouts at times.

You can be registered with as many vets as you like, some people don't seem to realise that, especially older ones from an era where that just wasn't done.
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[Errin Paddywack]

I have never been asked if I am insured. I was once offered an ultrasound on a cat with a suspected nasal tumour. I asked if it would change either the treatment or the outcome and was told 'no' so declined it. When my collie had a throat tumour I was told that she could have a CT at another local vet to get a more definitive answer. Again I asked if it would make any difference and was told 'no' so again declined. The vet that treated my sister's mare for an abscess after the farrier had failed to get to the bottom of it did mention that if it didn't resolve we could x-ray but she totally understood when I explained that if it failed to respond it would be a bullet not an x-ray. The pony has never been ridden, is about 17 and has always been just a field ornament. I probably sound callous to many people but my sister and I have our red lines about what we will put our animals through and try not to cross them. The vet I saw recently for the dogs jabs was lovely, happily gave me more metacam for my older girl and after checking their worming record gave us two lots of worming tablets to save me having to go back again too soon. I hope she sticks around.

The only complaint I have had at this practice since it became a corporate one is when they booked flea treatment out for me after all I requested was worm tablets and definitely didn't need treating against fleas. Still wish it was private but it is what it is. I have been with 5 different practices over the years and all are now corporate.

 

[meleeka]

I’m not insured and my vets are good at keeping costs down. This is not because they ‘milk’ insurance but because I choose to be conservative a lot of the time, and I also go for ‘treat what we think it is’ and forgo a lot of diagnostics, as long as vet is fairly confident. After all that’s what GPs do!

But I also recognise there is a degree of risk to that and some people definitely prefer the ‘throw the kitchen sink at it’ approach and should be offered the choice.

I think this is where the perception of vets milking insurance comes from. There are so many more diagnostics these days and so much more technology at a vet’s disposal. Sometimes people feel they aren’t given the choice to go for the more conservative approach. It is like GP’s, people expect them to just know everything!

A friend took her dog to the vet. The vet said he’d need to be booked in to a specialist and friend said she couldn’t afford it and dog is old so it wouldn’t be possible. Vet instead prescribed antibiotics and steroid drops I think and now dog is all better. Friend feels like the vet was trying to rip them off, but the outcome could have gone the other way. What the vet didn’t do was give friend the options from the off. I think it those circumstances my vet own would have suggested the eye drops first and then if no better, move on to the specialist, or at the least given me my options. I probably would still have gone for the eye drops first, even though I’m happy to pay for a specialist if needed.

 

[paddy555]

I respect my equine vets and have a brilliant relationship with them. However I have recently changed my small animal vets, after 25+ years, ('my' vet retired) not necessarily because they have gone corporate, but the calibre of a couple of the more junior vets who are more procedure, process, orientated, with no 'people' skills. To me this shows their own insecurities, the trust has gone. I hasten to say it is not their fault if their training has changed, like the medical/nursing profession, no wonder they need the reassurance of equipment, investigations to confirm a diagnosis, rather than clinical judgement, plus the increase risk of litigation which all cost money. (When did a nurse/doctor take a manual blood pressure or feel for a pulse) I am not against junior vets if they have appropriate mentors, they have done procedures on my equines under strict supervision, sadly the experience vets are the ones that are leaving the profession so there is a gap in this mentorship.

this is it. In earlier times you were paying for skill. A vet who could look at the whole overall situation and apply their skill, knowledge, experience to the situation. That could even be some old fashioned remedy out of the ark but if it worked then fine. The biggest thing they applied was probably a small amount of drugs and a lot of give it time.

There was most likely no insurance in those times for many owners so we were reliant on the skill of the vet not how to abide by the insurance company's rules.

 

[AmyMay]

A friend took her dog to the vet. The vet said he’d need to be booked in to a specialist and friend said she couldn’t afford it and dog is old so it wouldn’t be possible. Vet instead prescribed antibiotics and steroid drops I think and now dog is all better. Friend feels like the vet was trying to rip them off, but the outcome could have gone the other way. What the vet didn’t do was give friend the options from the off. I think it those circumstances my vet own would have suggested the eye drops first and then if no better, move on to the specialist, or at the least given me my options. I probably would still have gone for the eye drops first, even though I’m happy to pay for a specialist if needed.

Knowing what I now do about some eye conditions because of a friends dog, if my vet recommended a specialist I’d say yes.

 

[Redders]

I'd have you as my vet any day of the week Redders. Every word you've written on this thread says what a great vet you are.


I'd also like to say, not to you but to anyone who may have read my posts on any way not intended, that I've written what I've written on this thread to try to help vets protect themselves from unjust accusations and not because I'm offended in any way myself about being asked if insurance is paying.
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Thank you

 

[I'm Dun]

Well as a result of this thread I’ve emailed my practice and told them they are wonderful. So it’s achieved something.

When my dog went through ice and into a frozen canal and had to be fished out with a pole nearly frozen when he was just a puppy the local vets were brilliant with him and me. I went and bought biscuits and sweets and took them in to say thank you. It was only bog standard stuff from Aldi as students don't get a lot of money, but I felt I had to do something so they knew they were appreciated. They weren't even my vet, they were just the nearest who anweredthe phone, nd to top it off they didn't even charge for me turning up half naked and sobbing with the puppy wrapped in all my clothes while I froze. They didn't do diagnostics just a basic exam, but on a Sunday I'd have expected a £100+ bill for that.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Knowing what I now do about some eye conditions because of a friends dog, if my vet recommended a specialist I’d say yes.

Yes I would never mess about with eyes . Some years back I took my Gsd to vet as that morning her eye has been swollen and weeping , I expected to come away with eye drops . Long story short , within 24 hours the eye was removed as there was a tumour behind it . She was 10 but did brilliantly with only one eye and lived another 3 years .

 

[suestowford]

They swore at me and rolled their eyes, and said ‘of course, all about the money, my dog is dying here and you just want the money’. I hadn’t even given them the proposed cost at that point, just said I would get an estimate.

I HAVE to give an estimate before I start treatment. I HAVE to. The estimate was over 1000k for what the owner said they wanted, they have to be aware of that before I start.

There is a minority who do this, and I think they are bullies at heart. They whinge & moan about everything and in some cases they will get money knocked off/fees waived in the hope that they will shut up & go away. If it works once they try it again, & again.

Either that, or they don't take the pet to the vet very often so they are unaware that it's now the norm to be quoted an estimate.
An honest estimate of the costs is what I want and I was so glad to see the vets doing this at point of consult. It's important to know the facts, the likely cost is one of those facts.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

None of the local vets do OOH. I would have to travel into Coventry if I needed it. My sister used them once and I think they had to pay £300 up front. I can appreciate why but wish we could have the old ways back.

 

[tristars]

our vets are fabulous, the oldest one is treasure of knowledge and experience and so kind to me, at one time he would look around seriously and i thought i must be doing something wrong, one day he just came out and said `you have such lovely horses` and about the old stallion `do you still ride him?` yes! it was like winning the lotto, well a big red rosette, [ as he is now 23] the horse not the vet!

the younger vets, are so dedicated and skillful, and often say things like`i`m very concerned about him, her,`they really do have feelings for the animals and people at the times of illness and are willing to discuss things patiently and thoroughly

of course i have meet a few of the other sort, sadly they should never have been vets.

a vet from another practice we use often comes out with progressive thoughts on breeding and management in an open way as i he thinking through changing attitudes and advancing ideas

often when needed the vet will arrive in minutes, and i often think what the hell did people do in an emergency in years gone by, although horse management was at its peak in those days there was not the drugs etc

i would like to thank all the vets out there, the reassurance that a vet will there is a great comfort

its not a job i could do, i would just crumble, up in the night, out in the rain, mysterious illnesses, cranky people, all the sad things they have to see and deal with, but of course lovely moments too!

they deserve to earn a decent living

 

[saalsk]

There is good and bad in everything. As a VN I saw a vet show a cat owner an xray of a cat abdomen with a thumb tack in it. It wasn't her cat. It was a random xray of a cat laying on a thumb tack and having an xray taken. Her cat had vomiting and painful abdo, he told her it was a foreign body, hence GA, xray and *operation* to remove. He put local anaesthetic in the cats shaved tummy, made a skin deep 3cm long incision, added a couple of sutures, told her the thumb tack was removed and charged her £250 (this was mid 1990's prices). I quit. I complained to the RVS, I was told to STFU, no one was going to believe a teenager over a well regarded vet.

I spent another 10 years in other vet surgeries, and saw a far better place. One vet did a weird (successful, but not in the books) surgery on a dogs lower jaw, which he charged minimal GA cost and no time - the dog would have been PTS otherwise. Outcome was fab.

My lurcher ripped out a front paw claw. Despite my best efforts it got infected. Vet said it was "deep into the bone and dog was septic and at risk" - dog didn't have temp, was walking fine, and wound area was red and inflammed, and that was all. But I was a worried dog Mum, and they are vets, and they know best, right ? They insisted on GA and xrays, as they thought there was a bone injury, and because sedation couldn't guarantee the dog was still for the xray (!), xrays, and then I/V antiobiotics. I told them he had had a bad reaction to a particular drug, so they should not use it. They used the drug I told them not to. He had a reaction (again), and they needed to keep him in for another 48h to sort the fits, and the side effects. Xrays were fine, he needed oral antiobiotics for the mild skin infection at the site and that was it. Total bill, including the charge for the extra care after they used a drug I told them he didn't tolerate, £1400. The insurance did not pay up, as it was on record that I had told them not to use that sedation. They also disagreed that the GA/xray was needed, as a local infection could have been treated with antibiotics first, as there was no sign of further infection.

On the other hand, having had to put one of my old horses to sleep, I was on my own, distraught, and the vet was amazing. She did the procedure with care and compassion. After, with me on my knees in pieces, she put my other horse back in his field, sorted his haynet, then sorted a rug to cover my dead boy, took me back into the house, made me a coffee, had me sorted on the sofa with blanket, and called my parents to let me know what had happened, before leaving. I was charged basic call out and PTS, and nothing to show for the 2 hours she spent with me afterwards, over and above anything she needed to do.

 

[Wishfilly]

I am finding a lot of the responses on this thread really odd- I'm pretty sure the people posting them aren't socialists, but they are acting like making a profit is an absolutely terrible thing. Within the context of a capitalist society, of course vets have to make profits. It's how the practice continues to run, and how the vets get paid, and how a large amount of society functions. I don't know if people feel it's different because it's animals, and vets should somehow do it out of the goodness of their hearts. That's all well and good on an occasional basis, but you can't run a business that way and survive.

I have a very generous farrier who will *always* come out and help in an emergency if he can- but he is still paid for his work and he puts his prices up whenever he needs to. Should he shoe horses for free because it's a welfare issue and some owners can't afford it? It's very difficult to find a saddler around here and one of the local ones has just put her prices up- should she not do that because it's a welfare issue as well? I also know that she charged someone for a missed appointment (horse was lame) recently. Is that unfair?

At the end of the day, all these people are professionals trying to earn a living. Yes, it's nice if vets can do people favours, but at the end of the day it is a business transaction. People are emotional around it because of course we love our pets, but it's our financial responsibility as owners to ensure we can pay for treatment needed. I would never expect a freebie from a vet, nor would I want to be in a situation where finances were dictating my choices. I think long and hard about finances before acquiring a pet, I think, unfortunately, a lot of people don't and act like it is someone else's fault when they can't afford medical treatment. There's things I wouldn't put an animal through for welfare reasons, and there are things I am genuinely unsure about (e.g. colic surgery although I am insured for it), but I don't want to make a decision for financial reasons. I think some people do see a pet as a right, rather than a responsibility.

We should also remember that vets as a profession have a very high suicide rate, and I'm sure posts and threads like this don't help. Personally I appreciate the jobs that vets do, often in difficult and sometimes dangerous conditions!

If we think that vets should be run on a not-for-profit basis, IMO that would require wholesale societal change. We certainly can't rely on individuals (who may be struggling to pay their own bills!) to save us money! Maybe we need more animal charities to pick up the slack, but to be honest I think this is a case somewhat for personal responsibility as well. It's not that hard to research what common procedures cost and work out how to afford it- or, if we can't, then we wait to bring that pet into our lives.

 

[ycbm]

I am finding a lot of the responses on this thread really odd- I'm pretty sure the people posting them aren't socialists, but they are acting like making a profit is an absolutely terrible thing. Within the context of a capitalist society, of course vets have to make profits. It's how the practice continues to run, and how the vets get paid, and how a large amount of society functions. I don't know if people feel it's different because it's animals, and vets should somehow do it out of the goodness of their hearts. That's all well and good on an occasional basis, but you can't run a business that way and survive.

I have a very generous farrier who will *always* come out and help in an emergency if he can- but he is still paid for his work and he puts his prices up whenever he needs to. Should he shoe horses for free because it's a welfare issue and some owners can't afford it? It's very difficult to find a saddler around here and one of the local ones has just put her prices up- should she not do that because it's a welfare issue as well? I also know that she charged someone for a missed appointment (horse was lame) recently. Is that unfair?

At the end of the day, all these people are professionals trying to earn a living. Yes, it's nice if vets can do people favours, but at the end of the day it is a business transaction. People are emotional around it because of course we love our pets, but it's our financial responsibility as owners to ensure we can pay for treatment needed. I would never expect a freebie from a vet, nor would I want to be in a situation where finances were dictating my choices. I think long and hard about finances before acquiring a pet, I think, unfortunately, a lot of people don't and act like it is someone else's fault when they can't afford medical treatment. There's things I wouldn't put an animal through for welfare reasons, and there are things I am genuinely unsure about (e.g. colic surgery although I am insured for it), but I don't want to make a decision for financial reasons. I think some people do see a pet as a right, rather than a responsibility.

We should also remember that vets as a profession have a very high suicide rate, and I'm sure posts and threads like this don't help. Personally I appreciate the jobs that vets do, often in difficult and sometimes dangerous conditions!

If we think that vets should be run on a not-for-profit basis, IMO that would require wholesale societal change. We certainly can't rely on individuals (who may be struggling to pay their own bills!) to save us money! Maybe we need more animal charities to pick up the slack, but to be honest I think this is a case somewhat for personal responsibility as well. It's not that hard to research what common procedures cost and work out how to afford it- or, if we can't, then we wait to bring that pet into our lives.

I haven't seen what you feel you've seen. Anyone talking about profit was, I assumed, talking about excess profit. It's pretty clear that if vets don't make a profit we wouldn't have any.
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[Wishfilly]

Unfortunately not me, not for much longer anyway. I've done 25 years. I'm not even 50 for a while yet. I could be looking at another 15-20 years and the thought fills me with despair. I will miss it, but I won't be in the job in 5 years time. I have set myself that as a goal to get out. It's a crying shame, but everything has changed so much that I don't really want to be part of it now. The biggest thing for me is probably the change in client perception of vets. I deal with the complaints for our practice and there are times when I think 'OK vet X, the client was right, that was a silly thing to say/do', and I hold my hands up and do my best to sort it out for all parties. I fully uphold the right of people to pet us know when they think we have done a sub-standard job - and believe me, I'd rather know so that we can sort it out. But some complaints are just ridiculous now and you can't do right for doing wrong.

Example - I went to an emergency late at night, did what I thought my best job (in terms of full clinical exam, taking time over discussion/explanation/offering options to client, handling of the animal, treatment etc.). Shortly after the bill was sent out we got a long and detailed complaint saying that I was rushed, had barely been there 15mins, had barely looked at the animal, didn't care, was negligent in my treatment etc. etc. and some other stuff that was frankly bordering on a personal attack. I honestly thought I'd done a really good job, and was pretty upset that my thoughts on the call out were so different from how the client saw it, and that they'd thought so badly of me as to make personal insults. It made me think I possibly wasn't good enough any more. Luckily my lovely practice manager gave me a kick, said 'that doesn't sound like the vet I know' and we looked into it. I had mobile phone records showing the time I arrived (had to ring them to open the electric gate) and left (I phoned my husband as I was leaving to tell him I was on my way back) which showed I'd been at their premises for nearly and hour - nothing like 15 mins! My clinical notes detailed a full clinical exam had been carried out, plus some extras etc. etc. When the client was confronted with these details they completely 'fessed up, said that they agreed that I'd been there a reasonable amount of time and actually done a good job, but they couldn't afford to pay the bill and found that in their experience making complaints usually got the bill reduced!

Now that is an extreme example, but it is not the first time, and left me, a tough old vet, pretty upset and feeling like a useless human being for at least a week. I hate to think of the turmoil it might have caused a new graduate! This might be an infrequent event, but it is indicative of the general change in attitude towards vets and things like this wear me out.

I'm really sorry you had to deal with this.

As a teacher, I would say there's a small sector of society who seem to now jump to personal attacks when they are unhappy about something (I mean among parents, not students). I have no problem with people complaining. I do have problems with people who jump straight to insults towards a professional who is trying their best.

I don't think people realise the impact it has until you've been on the other end of it.

 

[KEK]

Also pretty surprised about the people that are offended to be asked if they have insurance. Its never the 1st thing I ask, more when it comes towards the end and I'm thinking I need to do diagnostics/admit into hospital etc. I've never had anyone be offended IRL, though, generally just say "no, but cost is not a concern" or I ask "is cost a concern ". I always go through the different options, however generally if I'm talking diagnostics/hospital etc the pet really needs it. If I think conservative care is fine then I recommend/offer that 1st.
I have worked with vets (generally young) that have offered the owner a whole bunch of options for the owner to choose what to do- IMO this isn't really fair as they don't generally know what to pick. I feel this is generally due to the vet not knowing what is going on with the pet. There is no substitute for experience although obviously young vets have to get it somehow (as well as Dr's dentists etc etc). I have NEVER worked with a vet that padded bills for insured animals, did more than was needed etc. In fact, when I was still working for a corporate (now at an independent), they tried to bring in bonuses for high FPO vets and it didn't achieve the desired effect so they stopped it.

 

[Wishfilly]

I haven't seen what you feel you've seen. Anyone talking about profit was, I assumed, talking about excess profit. It's pretty clear that if vets don't make a profit we wouldn't have any.
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What do you mean in this context by excess profit? What level of profit do you deem reasonable for a vet/vet chain?

At the end of the day, most businesses exist to make as much profit as they can- it's how our society (with a few major exceptions) works.

I'm pretty sure my landlord makes a lot more profit out of me than my vet, housing is also a basic need, but I can imagine the reception I'd get on this forum if I complained about rent increases! BTW, I'd far rather my money went to my vet who actually has skills and expertise that I don't!

 

[ycbm]

What do you mean in this context by excess profit? What level of profit do you deem reasonable for a vet/vet chain?

The average sort of profit made by any sort of business.
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[meleeka]

What do you mean in this context by excess profit? What level of profit do you deem reasonable for a vet/vet chain?

At the end of the day, most businesses exist to make as much profit as they can- it's how our society (with a few major exceptions) works.

I'm pretty sure my landlord makes a lot more profit out of me than my vet, housing is also a basic need, but I can imagine the reception I'd get on this forum if I complained about rent increases! BTW, I'd far rather my money went to my vet who actually has skills and expertise that I don't!

I think it’s seen by some people as profiting out of someone’s misery. Unfortunately in corporate practice it isn’t the vet that’s benefiting from profits, but the shareholders. The vets are just getting an average salary and not nearly enough when you think what they actually do. It’s not the same as your farrier making a good living for himself and his family.

My vet is part of CVS

CVS Group records leap in annual income

Bosses have welcomed a ‘strong’ set of results, but say a near 50% increase in profits is influenced by last year’s measures taken to address competition

www.vettimes.co.uk

 

[paddy555]

I think it’s seen by some people as profiting out of someone’s misery. Unfortunately in corporate practice it isn’t the vet that’s benefiting from profits, but the shareholders. The vets are just getting an average salary and not nearly enough when you think what they actually do. It’s not the same as your farrier making a good living for himself and his family.

My vet is part of CVS

CVS Group records leap in annual income

Bosses have welcomed a ‘strong’ set of results, but say a near 50% increase in profits is influenced by last year’s measures taken to address competition

www.vettimes.co.uk

This. With corporates there are the directors/ceo salaries to be paid and then the shareholders. The vet fees have to service a lot of people and many are getting a lot more than the vets who are doing the work.

 

[Redders]

The thing with corporate ownership, and it is a tricky thing. Is that someone has to own a practice that can employ the vet teams that people can take pets to, and very few people are in a position to buy/rent not only a suitable premises, but also the basic kit needed to run it, not talking stuff like MRI scanners but x ray machines, operating tables, medical fridges, instruments, ophthalmoscopes etc etc - if a practice has none of these then they can’t actually diagnose or treat. All this kit has to be to certain standards etc etc etc. you then need to be able to employ some people, who need pay/tax/pension etc. you have to have a safe place for public and staff etc. You also probably need one other vet minimum to be able to cover the opening hours and generate enough income to pay for the running costs. This would be for a basic small non hospital vet practice with no OOH provision. Even that is insanely expensive! I would adore to open my own place and talk about it regularly with a couple of colleagues, but it’s cost prohibitive, and also, I have not got a business mind - I would probably go busy from naivety with in 24 months! Most vets I know are in the same position as me.
So if vets can’t afford to open them, that doesn’t leave many options.
Corporates in a nutshell are there to make big profits, that’s how they generate their investors who then spend big on new facilities, all the extra kit needed. No not everyone wants an MRI, but if it’s what’s going to be the thing that can diagnose your animal, and you want to do it, you would want it to be available.

Corporates at the top have zero clue what vetting is. They hire regional and middle and inter middle managers and advisors who do know that stuff, and then all the support staff and infrastructure to house this section of the business.
At their very essence, they are money makers. But that’s also what enables them to keep the places open, and open new places.
Day to day I don’t notice that I am in a corporate practice because they don’t really have much to do with what I am actually doing.
Except…..I know that they can pay me, and ok so I could probably be paid more, there is a vet shortage, I could probably demand more money to reward my loyalty, and they would have the funds to pay me. I don’t because I’m pretty happy on what I am on and I have long term plans in terms of career development and want wriggle room to negotiate for non salary input like enhanced learning costs etc. I also know that if I, in writing, put in a justification for why I would like to have a new bit of equipment, the money is there to get it. I have been in several independent practices where this isn’t always possible and you make do with what you have, even if it makes your job inefficient or awkward or just not as good as it could be.

One thing I can’t stand and really irritates me is the blooming health plans with flea and wormer and anal glands etc included. This is a big thing in independents too. I’m happy with the wormer we include because our local risk of lungworm is high, we responded to seeing diagnosed cases by increasing the protection to reflect the area risk, this is good and what we should do. Yes if you have allergic pets, keeping ectoparasite treatment up to date is important (and also in cats, adorable flea magnets). But I don’t like blanket treat of all - my colleagues and I discuss individual risk with all owners, but the answer is ‘I pay for it, I want it’ regardless of individual pet risk.
The vast majority of dogs do not need regular anal gland expressions, those who do fine, it’s needed, I always discuss causes and ways it can be managed to reduce the expressions. Dogs generally hate it, it’s invasive, and it makes a lot of dogs HATE coming to the vets, often when people ask me I respond ‘ok I can do that for you but have you seen any issues or symptoms that make you think there may be a problem?’ The answer is often ‘I pay for it, I want it done’ even though poor little creature needs a muzzle now to have it done.
For these reasons, I’m not keen on health plans

Anyway, I digress!
I want to open my own place, with separate wards for all species, (exotic, cat, dog) and provide OOH 24/7/365 on site with a dedicated night team so there are no risks to fatigue and the staff can have QOL. I want to have full facilities for this hospital, no MRI but I want a CT because I don’t want to send the exotic owners who trust me to a practice down the road to do a CT because they don’t do exotic anaesthetics. I also want a CT because it is often the most cost efficient way to diagnose many conditions and sometimes it’s the only way to diagnose. I want full facilities so I can offer basic give it time and trial treat for those who want it, but also be able to provide services to those who DO want to do as much as possible, and all those owners in between, without having to say ‘sorry I can’t run in house bloods on your very sick pet, I will have to refer you up the road’
I want to be able to make enough money from everything else to allow me to do basic put to sleeps (no cremation included because the crematoria will charge me a fortune) to less than £40.

But I can’t afford to do this. So I have to accept that the corporate I work for provides me with most of these things because I can’t provide them for myself.

I wish it was more affordable to set up

Edit for terrible spelling

Second edit for an add on:
So I do welcome the CMA so they can look at what choice in terms of independent vs corporate practices are in an area so owners have a choice, but it also means, I have more choice over who employs me!

 

[paddy555]

I find the selling of health plans very poor. Whilst sitting in reception of my vets there was continual pressure from the staff who were ringing all possible clients selling monthly plans. No medical info if was relevant to the client just bank details and sign up.

 

[nagblagger]

Thank you Redders for the 'behind the scenes' insight.
I don't envy you having to juggle corporate expectations v clients expectations, with your own conscience. Clients can be awkward and having to work out what information they need and at what level is an art. (I am probably one of them - but never rude)
One 'inexperienced vet' and I had a disagreement when they first started at the practice, tried to baffle me with b#llsh#t. (didn't work). However a few months later they were on-call and i needed a vet, they examined the animal and admitted they didn't have any idea what could be wrong, but they would phone one of the partners for advice. In that one phrase I was impressed and therefore could start to trust them as they could now admit when they didn't know, = a safe practitioner! They are now a partner in the practice so have done well. However, I am aware admitting that to someone else may have caused more anxiety in a stressful situation.
In summary, I think vets need to do a psychology course to treat the owners, treating the animals are probably the easy bit. I don't envy you.