Vets manipulating notes on my mare's records, help please!

[Ellietotz]

Recently started investigating lameness in my mare. The vet diagnosed with SI pain and injected which was going to go through insurance. Followed up a week later and said he thinks it's all in her head. I sent him an email questioning how his opinion has changed within a week and why other tests that I'd wanted hadn't been done.
He's emailed back turning defensive and started twisting my words to make it sound like the insurance is fraudulent and based on a pre-existing condition.
Instead of putting the medical notes on about this week's follow up appointment, he's copied and pasted the entire email chain, jumbled up and not all of my emails have been put in too making it sound like I will be lying to the insurance company.

What do I do? Where do I stand with this?

I'm extremely worried as it's a huge bill and last week he had diagnosed with something but because I've questioned him saying I wasn't happy about what had happened, everything has been twisted.

 

[superpony]

Putting a copy of the emails on there is rather odd. Have you asked him why he has done this? Has he put the notes on for the original diagnosis and injection?

Is he the practise owner or a partner? I would try speaking to him again find out exactly what is going on (ideally in email so you have a copy of everything said!) if not happy then I would take it further with a complaint to the practice manager/partner.

 

[Shay]

I'm afraid you are likely to struggle to prove that a professional is committing fraud. The relationship with that practice has clearly broken down and you may well want to pursue your issues with another vet. But it won't be covered by your insurance.

Both of you have different views of the situation. He is (presumably) a highly qualified professional. He is also the director of that particular vet practice. That is not to say that vets can't be wrong or that sometimes an alternative approach has benefits the established practice doesn't recognize. But your chances of proving he is committing fraud - which is really what you are accusing him of - are not good. But if that is a line you really want to pursue contact the Royal college and Trading standards.

ETA - Superpony OP has already said in a separate thread vet is the director of the practice.

 

[Ellietotz]

Putting a copy of the emails on there is rather odd. Have you asked him why he has done this? Has he put the notes on for the original diagnosis and injection?

Is he the practise owner or a partner? I would try speaking to him again find out exactly what is going on (ideally in email so you have a copy of everything said!) if not happy then I would take it further with a complaint to the practice manager/partner.

He's the practice director. He missed out quite a lot of what I wrote to him so he will probably miss it out.

 

[Shay]

If you want to provide the full chain to the insurance company then do so.

 

[Ellietotz]

If you want to provide the full chain to the insurance company then do so.

But is he allowed to put the emails on her medical history? He could have just put the notes from Mondays follow up appointment. He said at the time he thinks a lot of it is behavioural but if the injections don't kick in then he would look to inject the spine next in case of kissing spine. He said he would put my claim in and it'll be fine but since I told him I was upset, he's changed all the notes round, put things I've said in the wrong context etc.

 

[teddypops]

What would the vet gain by doing this? How do you know he’s changed everything around? It’s not the vets decision as to whether you should claim/ not claim/ get a payout or not. Everything relevant to the horse is attached to the history, so everything is in one place. I find it all a bit bizarre as surely the vet wants his bills paying.

 

[ozpoz]

Tell him that you need the emails to run consecutively and accurately for your own records and don't accept anything less.
If he thought it was 'all in her head' then why bother to inject? is it worth seeking a second opinion?

 

[Ellietotz]

What would the vet gain by doing this? How do you know he’s changed everything around? It’s not the vets decision as to whether you should claim/ not claim/ get a payout or not. Everything relevant to the horse is attached to the history, so everything is in one place. I find it all a bit bizarre as surely the vet wants his bills paying.

I've had the medical record sent to me and all the emails are on there. None of the notes from the follow up.

 

[Ellietotz]

Tell him that you need the emails to run consecutively and accurately for your own records and don't accept anything less.
If he thought it was 'all in her head' then why bother to inject? is it worth seeking a second opinion?

I have had another vet come out who agrees she is 1/10th lame but injections could be taking some effect at this stage. They agreed she is stiff and unhappy too. They came out yesterday.

 

[teddypops]

I've had the medical record sent to me and all the emails are on there. None of the notes from the follow up.

They might not have had a chance to do this yet. I don’t think this means anything is dodgy.

 

[ester]

Is this the 'record' they produced for the second opinion vet? as opposed to what they intend to put on the insurance claim form?

 

[Ellietotz]

They might not have had a chance to do this yet. I don’t think this means anything is dodgy.

It's all dated from the follow up appointment on Monday to yesterday. He's had plenty of time to copy and paste each of our emails between eachother between this time, each entry is dated when he uploaded a copy of another email. There are no notes with his feedback from the actual visit.

 

[Ellietotz]

Is this the 'record' they produced for the second opinion vet? as opposed to what they intend to put on the insurance claim form?

Interesting... The second opinion vet told me all it said from the follow up appointment was that it was too soon to tell if the injections worked. The ones I got today were sent from the office administrator so likely the recent ones on the system. I have no idea what they're going to put on the claim form.

 

[{138171}]

How long have you been using this vet? I would be contacting the college of vetenary surgeons with both what he has manipulated and the original exchange and complain about his behaviour as there in no one higher than him at the vet practice itself. Q

 

[Ellietotz]

How long have you been using this vet? I would be contacting the college of vetenary surgeons with both what he has manipulated and the original exchange and complain about his behaviour as there in no one higher than him at the vet practice itself. Q

A few years. I just don't want everything to massively kick off. I just wanted it to be straightforward.

 

[{138171}]

I understand that but he is clearly behaving oddly and you need to be able to look after yourself as he is being deceitful and you don't want the insurance trying to prosicute you for fraud when that's not the case at all.

 

[Ellietotz]

I understand that but he is clearly behaving oddly and you need to be able to look after yourself as he is being deceitful and you don't want the insurance trying to prosicute you for fraud when that's not the case at all.

I did call them before this all happened to explain what the vet has done. I just don't really know where to go from here. I'm so scared about it all.

 

[Nudibranch]

In fairness we only have one account and as already mentioned, what would the vet have to gain by making payment to himself more difficult? For whatever reason the relationship has gone sour but it's quite hard to advise when it's so unclear.

I've always found that having a good relationship with my vet (so to speak!!) has meant mutual trust, respect and often a fair bit of work done without being put on the bill. If I disagree with him we talk about it in an open and honest way, generally with a fair bit of banter, and things stay friendly. Sometimes I've been right, often he has.

To be honest, I'd go back to square one with your vet and try and have a frank, honest but unemotional chat about what exactly is his thinking and how your insurance claim will proceed.

 

[Ellietotz]

In fairness we only have one account and as already mentioned, what would the vet have to gain by making payment to himself more difficult? For whatever reason the relationship has gone sour but it's quite hard to advise when it's so unclear.

I've always found that having a good relationship with my vet (so to speak!!) has meant mutual trust, respect and often a fair bit of work done without being put on the bill. If I disagree with him we talk about it in an open and honest way, generally with a fair bit of banter, and things stay friendly. Sometimes I've been right, often he has.

To be honest, I'd go back to square one with your vet and try and have a frank, honest but unemotional chat about what exactly is his thinking and how your insurance claim will proceed.

I had sent him an email after the follow up visit saying I was upset that it went from him saying she was stiff behind and not moving correctly thinking she had an SI problem to him saying he thinks it's all in her head a week later. I think he got his back up from me questioning why this had happened and the office told him that I had contacted them to give consent for a new vet to have the records for a second opinion. I think he probably had plans on how to rack up more money which might explain why he avoided scanning the suspensories both times but it seems now he he just wants to be nasty and let me struggle instead.
I think I'm just going to contact him and tell him not to worry about sending off the claim form. With all the stuff he has put on her records, I can't deal with the worry of being prosecuted of fraud or any of that rubbish and I just don't have the energy emotionally to fight it. It went from being diagnosed to this. There are more details of the timeline this all happened on my other recent threads.

 

[Nudibranch]

I've read the other threads and still feel like something is missing here. You seem to have gone from 0-60 in getting upset with him, and then saying he's now not only deliberately trying to upset you but wanted to fraudulently bump up a claim to make more money - which seems a bit contradictory if you also say he's no longer interested in treatment after only a week. He may of course be a rubbish vet, who rips off clients and insurance companies, but I can't help feeling that this a classic case of us knowing only one side of the story.

 

[Ellietotz]

I've read the other threads and still feel like something is missing here. You seem to have gone from 0-60 in getting upset with him, and then saying he's now not only deliberately trying to upset you but wanted to fraudulently bump up a claim to make more money - which seems a bit contradictory if you also say he's no longer interested in treatment after only a week. He may of course be a rubbish vet, who rips off clients and insurance companies, but I can't help feeling that this a classic case of us knowing only one side of the story.

Sorry, it's a bit difficult saying exactly the entire story without giving absolutely every detail away so a lot of it probably doesn't make sense.
All I know is he said the diagnosis and treated, came out a week later and said it's likely a lot of it is in her head (his reasons were because although she was a lot worse at home and hacking away from home, she displayed no symptoms heading home on a hack which to me isnt really a reliable way to tell) but not ruling out SI pain completely at this point and to follow up in a couple of weeks. I sent an email questioning how it's been changed from being 99% SI to this and why suspensories weren't done again when I asked. He came back on the defensive and said the office also told him a new vet requested records for second opinion. Has come up with new symptoms that weren't relevant to the lameness case and put it all on the records with bits on the emails from me cut out in places.
I can't be bothered to argue if I'm honest. I'll tell them not to bother and I'll pay the bill when I'm ready. They messed me around by not doing the work up properly which I took her to the clinic for so I just want to be done with it all and start again with another vet who does believe there is pain in the back, SI and right hind lameness.

 

[JanetGeorge]

But is he allowed to put the emails on her medical history? He could have just put the notes from Mondays follow up appointment. He said at the time he thinks a lot of it is behavioural but if the injections don't kick in then he would look to inject the spine next in case of kissing spine. He said he would put my claim in and it'll be fine but since I told him I was upset, he's changed all the notes round, put things I've said in the wrong context etc.

Reading this through reminds me of my NEXT letter to the Veterinary Defence Society about my claim against my EX-vet. It's a nightmare which started with their negligence (IMO) with a horse that could have been 'fixed' MUCH more quickly - but got worse as a consequence of vet incompetence. (Luckily now fixed and happy.) Dealing with the VDS is a NIGHTMARE, believe me - But I would start with a carefully worded letter to the practice, setting out your unhappiness with the failure of the vet to take your opinions/concerns into accunt - and ask THEM the way forward. (First time I did this, I got a reply denying their failure to act correctly and offering me to knock off the outstanding £1,000+ bill - PURELY as a sign of their good-will, of course. I shold have said yes - and saved myself a year of hassle and headache. No closer to a resolution, I still owe them £1,000+ - which is NOTHING (IMO) to what they've cost me. So if they want to sue me, let them try. You definitely need a new vet - and might HAVE to get one anyway. Whatever you decide, demand a full set of clinical notes for every horse they have ever treated for you. (When I did that, I found MORE reasons for complaint, lol.) Give clinical notes to a new vet - after you explain to them that you HAVE had a complete breakdown in your relationship with your previous vet - that all you want is a vet who will listen to you ad tell you the truth. If he doesn't want you as a client then, find another. But most WILL accept you if you are as honest with them as you expect them to be with you.

 

[be positive]

I've read the other threads and still feel like something is missing here. You seem to have gone from 0-60 in getting upset with him, and then saying he's now not only deliberately trying to upset you but wanted to fraudulently bump up a claim to make more money - which seems a bit contradictory if you also say he's no longer interested in treatment after only a week. He may of course be a rubbish vet, who rips off clients and insurance companies, but I can't help feeling that this a classic case of us knowing only one side of the story.

Sorry, it's a bit difficult saying exactly the entire story without giving absolutely every detail away so a lot of it probably doesn't make sense.
All I know is he said the diagnosis and treated, came out a week later and said it's likely a lot of it is in her head (his reasons were because although she was a lot worse at home and hacking away from home, she displayed no symptoms heading home on a hack which to me isnt really a reliable way to tell) but not ruling out SI pain completely at this point and to follow up in a couple of weeks. I sent an email questioning how it's been changed from being 99% SI to this and why suspensories weren't done again when I asked. He came back on the defensive and said the office also told him a new vet requested records for second opinion. Has come up with new symptoms that weren't relevant to the lameness case and put it all on the records with bits on the emails from me cut out in places.
I can't be bothered to argue if I'm honest. I'll tell them not to bother and I'll pay the bill when I'm ready. They messed me around by not doing the work up properly which I took her to the clinic for so I just want to be done with it all and start again with another vet who does believe there is pain in the back, SI and right hind lameness.

We do have only your side of the story, much of which is detailed in the numerous threads going back over 2 years when you took on this pony with numerous issues and a historical accident, I suspect that you have mentioned this accident to the vet, if you haven't you should as most of her issues probably relate to that even if she was given a check or two afterwards it is highly likely some damage was done at the time and it is why she has always been difficult in one way or another.
The list is long, from memory, bucking, broncing, napping, headshaking, sore back, I think at the time blamed on the saddle, various bad behaviour on the ground, with other horses as well as with people, ulcers suspected, treated with various potions then finally scoped and treated by the vet, I cannot recall whether she was fully checked for soundness at that time, I have no idea whether that was through insurance but if it was you were lucky to do so as it was preexisting you taking her on according to your threads.

They may or may not have done a workup correctly but they did a fair amount and found a possible reason for her lameness which was treated appropriately by injections, you should have started a rehab plan so I have no idea why they came back to reassess this week, it takes months to get the full benefit from the injections and during that time her head will still be anticipating discomfort or pain so he may well be correct in what he has said and you have taken it to mean something else, vets do not always speak in the clearest way and not all are great with owners who have limited experience.

If you want to do best by her, which I am sure you do, then get a proper rehab plan in place and be patient, the injections are only a small part of the process, they should allow the area to be less painful so the muscles can be built up correctly which will take months of slow steady work, if you change vets be very careful as all her history will go with her, even bits not relevant to her current lameness or treatment, you will be starting in the middle not something new, a fresh pair of eyes may be useful but may prove extremely expensive.

 

[whiteflower]

If you are going to walk away from this and not make a claim remember that for any future claims you have to submit your full vet history from all vets including this one so if something is not correct it may be worth trying to sort that first

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I had sent him an email after the follow up visit saying I was upset that it went from him saying she was stiff behind and not moving correctly thinking she had an SI problem to him saying he thinks it's all in her head a week later. I think he got his back up from me questioning why this had happened and the office told him that I had contacted them to give consent for a new vet to have the records for a second opinion. I think he probably had plans on how to rack up more money which might explain why he avoided scanning the suspensories both times but it seems now he he just wants to be nasty and let me struggle instead.
I think I'm just going to contact him and tell him not to worry about sending off the claim form. With all the stuff he has put on her records, I can't deal with the worry of being prosecuted of fraud or any of that rubbish and I just don't have the energy emotionally to fight it. It went from being diagnosed to this. There are more details of the timeline this all happened on my other recent threads.

You are not going to be prosecuted over a form that your vet filled in and sent, so put that right out of your mind. It is possible to take issue with a vet whom you think has not dealt properly with your animals but as JanetGeorge on here has found, you need to be very determined and strong to do that, so it probably isn't a route that you want to go down. Work with your new vet, who will need to ask the first vet about follow-up to the injections, so will eventually be able to get a clear picture. And most of all, take a deep breath and stop panicking. Your insurance company agreed to the intervention before it happened, didn't they? The new vet will be able to help to get the history straight, without being emotionally involved. And a word of advice for the future - don't send emails, ring up and speak to the person you are questioning. I only advise emails if you need a 'papertrail' to back up your own actions.

 

[ycbm]

. He said at the time he thinks a lot of it is behavioural but if the injections don't kick in then he would look to inject the spine next in case of kissing spine.

Was he saying he was going to inject her without x rays to see if she actually had kissing spines first?




To be honest, looking back over your history with this mare, the insurance company would be mad to pay out unless you lie to them about her consistent behavioral problems. Unless you pay even more and manage to find a condition that can't possibly have been there when you took her on, they would normally simply say that in their view the horse had a pre existing issue and refuse the claim.

I think you might need to try to negotiate a reduction in the bill for poor service, and leave it at that with this vet. FWIW, I think his charges of £1000 for your x rays were extortionate.

 

[Leo Walker]

In fairness we only have one account and as already mentioned, what would the vet have to gain by making payment to himself more difficult? For whatever reason the relationship has gone sour but it's quite hard to advise when it's so unclear.

I've seen both sides and feel the same way. ET complained to the vet about how the investigation was done and the outcome and all of a sudden the vet became a bit defensive but it was all ok still. Then the vet got notification of ET of the second opinion finding she was lame and he went off the deep end accusing her of insurance fraud and being quite aggressive

We do have only your side of the story, much of which is detailed in the numerous threads going back over 2 years when you took on this pony with numerous issues and a historical accident, I suspect that you have mentioned this accident to the vet, if you haven't you should as most of her issues probably relate to that even if she was given a check or two afterwards it is highly likely some damage was done at the time and it is why she has always been difficult in one way or another.
.

Again, easy for me to say as I was party to ET finding this out, but the trailer accident really wasnt a trailer accident. As a 2yr old the pony went over the breast bar while travelling in a trailer, was freed and taken home in a horsebox. So no sinister accident as ET had been led to believe.

The vet came out to reassess the pony, had the pony W, T, C and jump and then said she wasnt any better it was probably all in her head but he would inject the close processes in her spine anyway. ET has never been given any sort of rehab plan, nor told there would be one. The vet thought he could inject the pony and have her be totally sound. Didnt scan suspensories and didnt nerve block or use the lameness detector. After the second visit he changed his mind from saying she was lame to sound. The second opinion vet confirmed shes lame.

My understanding is the pony has always bucked and been a bit of a handful but was actually much improved recently until ET noticed she was now short behind

Whether or not this is pre existing and was brought to light by being made to behave better or if its a new thing remains to be seen. Either way the vet has behaved in an appalling manner and really shouldnt be allowed to get away with it. But equally how do you compkain about something like this and whats the chance of a successful outcome. I have no idea!

 

[tristar]

i would start with, i took my horse for a workup, this was not done to my satisfaction, i am not going to pay you for the workup.

send a copy of the emails by registered post, workup not done, emails all over the shop, what are they playing at?

keep it simple, you have to say these things, say them and forget about it, well try, do not let them walk all over you, and ask for a meeting where you can discuss what is going on.

i doubt very much they will take action against you, they cock up, then initimate fraud, no, they are bluffing

don`t get involved with solicitors, keep your money for your horse, keep it simple say the truth and walk away

 

[bonny]

I would be very careful advising non payment of the bill, the vets will chase for their money and this could get very messy. Also, it’s a small world, the new vets would probably take a dim view of this attitude and refuse anymore visits without payment up front. I doubt this horse will still be insured for any investigations now and an overall stop and think before progressing might be advisable