Vets manipulating notes on my mare's records, help please!

Red-1

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My advice would be, if you can afford it, to pay the bill and walk away initially. It will be less stress in the long run.

Having decided that, I would write to the vet detailing the inaccuracies in the vet record, and having the emails in correct order. I would ask for the inaccuracies to be righted.

As far as treatment is concerned, you don't pay the vet to be right, you pay for their opinion and time. He has given that. I may ask for a reduction in bill due to the fact that you asked for the suspensories to be scanned and he refused, but I would not expect to be successful as you could have insisted and moved the horse if he had not wanted to do it.

I have had to move my horse for a second opinion twice (2 horses, from the same vet, at different times). One for an eye condition that the vet thought was a minor irritation, but it proved to be a carcinoma, the other for what he thought was a melanoma and best left but I believed to be an unrelated cyst. Both were successfully operated on, the first vet was wrong, but I did not seek a refund from the first vet as he was doing his job to the best of his ability.

I would go somewhere new. I would sort out the issue of the vet record with the first vet. I would get a copy of what they intend to send the insurance company (but my company wanted the entire record of the horse, which included anything I had mentioned in general chat when having vaccinations). Then decide weather or not to pursue an insurance claim, be up front with them if you do not get the vet record corrected.

Insurance companies do accept that records can be wrong. The mare with the eye condition, the insurance company queried why they had not been told about the arthroscopy she had endured on her knee. She had not had that, or any issues with her knee. ??? The vet insisted she had. I was in a quandary how to proceed, but asked how I had supposedly paid for said arthroscopy? That was the thing that sorted it, as my financial account had no record of it.

After that they created a new record for my horse, but every year I wold get a vaccination reminder "Dear Mrs Red-1, this is a reminder that your horse, 'Not Her Horse' is due his/her vaccination."

My insurance wanted to strike her knees off my policy, but they did correct it, so if your horse has no preexisting conditions then having the record righted will allow a claim to go through.

Whatever the record and the jumbled emails, you may find that she is not covered if you have expressed concerns regarding unexplained busking/napping before this period of insurance anyway.

You will probably find that it is not worth insuring next year.

This will be less stressful if you have accepted that you have already written off the vets bill and any claim money is a bonus.
 

Ellietotz

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I've seen both sides and feel the same way. ET complained to the vet about how the investigation was done and the outcome and all of a sudden the vet became a bit defensive but it was all ok still. Then the vet got notification of ET of the second opinion finding she was lame and he went off the deep end accusing her of insurance fraud and being quite aggressive



Again, easy for me to say as I was party to ET finding this out, but the trailer accident really wasnt a trailer accident. As a 2yr old the pony went over the breast bar while travelling in a trailer, was freed and taken home in a horsebox. So no sinister accident as ET had been led to believe.

The vet came out to reassess the pony, had the pony W, T, C and jump and then said she wasnt any better it was probably all in her head but he would inject the close processes in her spine anyway. ET has never been given any sort of rehab plan, nor told there would be one. The vet thought he could inject the pony and have her be totally sound. Didnt scan suspensories and didnt nerve block or use the lameness detector. After the second visit he changed his mind from saying she was lame to sound. The second opinion vet confirmed shes lame.

My understanding is the pony has always bucked and been a bit of a handful but was actually much improved recently until ET noticed she was now short behind

Whether or not this is pre existing and was brought to light by being made to behave better or if its a new thing remains to be seen. Either way the vet has behaved in an appalling manner and really shouldnt be allowed to get away with it. But equally how do you compkain about something like this and whats the chance of a successful outcome. I have no idea!

Thanks LW. Saves me trying to explain it all.
 

Fruitcake

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Don’t panic about being prosecuted for insurance fraud! There’s a big difference between submitting a claim and having it rejected and deliberately defrauding someone. Claims are rejected all the time; people don’t go to jail for it.

I do think however, that it sounds like the vet has had a difficult task. I’ve read your past threads and it seems this horse has had a long history of issues which may, or may not, be related. In terms of the vet saying the insurance claim probably won’t be accepted, I have to say I agree: it’ll probably be classed as pre-existing. You even said yourself on another thread that the reason you took her to the vet in the first place was to investigate her lameness plus your concerns about the cause of her ulcers and her past and current behaviour. You’ve been clear that she’s behaved like this and bucked and tail-swished as long as you’ve had her. If you’ve told the vet this, along with your concerns about this all being linked, he’ll have written it on the notes in case it’s relevant, which will suggest the issues are linked to a pre-existing condition. I’m not really sure how you can blame the vet for this.

Also, as you’re asking for advice and opinions, I’m going to say (in the nicest possible way) that you seem to have gone from agreeing with the vet (actually justifying his opinions to others who disagreed) to completely changing your view and becoming extremely upset with him in a short space of time on Monday. If you emailed him in emotion during this, I wonder if your email has come across in the way you’d like if you were calm / one conducive to an amicable relationship. Just some thoughts. I know you’re probably feeling emotional and worried but as a poster above said, you don’t pay your vet for a guaranteed solution, you pay for his opinion and services, which he has provided. It must be frustrating for vets too when they can’t find a definitive answer. It would be so much easier if animals could speak to us!

Do be aware that vets talk to each other and your new vet will, almost certainly, be made aware of any outstanding bill.

If it were me, I’d submit the claim and see what happens. When claims are refused, to appeal them, you need your vet onside though so, if that happens, you’ll probably have to accept that you’ll just have to pay it.

I hope you find an answer to your horse’s problems.
 

ester

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yes, MRCVS are interested in altered records (ie going back in time and adding things) but I am not sure this is what has happened here.

ET I think in telling the vet that you were upset to a certain extent he has understandably been quite extensively justifying what he has done/not done. (I also wonder if they think they saved the day a bit when the original vet couldn't do the work up). I'm sure they would rather get paid by insurance, but probably right feel they should warn you that it might not go through.
 

Ellietotz

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Thanks everyone for your replies.

I have decided to let him know not to worry about submitting the form. I can't deal with the worry or have the energy emotionally to fight about it. My main concern is making my mare happy again so I will just pay and be done with it.

FYI

- My first email to the vet questioning what had happened was not written in an emotional state, I spent a long time writing it, I'm stupid but not that stupid to send an emotional messy email to a vet.

- I did at first believe what he had said in the moment until I let it sink in. I trusted what he said at the time but when I started thinking about everything that was said a week before, I was confused and understandably not happy.

- There was no rehab plan. He said a week would be enough to tell if the injections worked. Asked me to school in w, t, c and jump, agreed her behaviour was still just as bad. Took her out on a 'hack' to see how she was, same behaviour but all symptoms went away when heading home. He came to the conclusion it was behavioural and no other tests needed to be done. However he did say give it a couple more weeks to see if the Regumate works and if still the same, he will want to inject the close processes in her spine and look to giving her Modecate. Still no rehab plan for between this time was given.

- The new vet knows what is going on. They said when they inject the SI, they don't reassess for two to three weeks and advise to leave to rest until this time. I did pay them on the day of their visit as I would usually do. They don't think it's right what the vet had done before either. They've told me to rest her for two weeks and then we will go from there.

- My mare had been fine through summer and I'm not denying there are some behavioural issues. However, I know this is not behavioural and I know she is in pain somewhere. Since the weather turned and clocks changed, she has got increasingly more miserable. I thought it was due to routine changing and being stabled at night, she dropped weight as well and then I suspected her ulcers have come back and came to the conclusion that if they had returned, then it's secondary to another issue so I started with checking the ovaries. This didn't come of anything, the bloods were fine too so I pursued the investigation. Her seeming so angry and miserable was heartbreaking and I know it's not her normal mareish grumpy self, it's worse. I thought once and for all, I am just going to get whatever this is sorted.

Anyway, it's done now. I'll pay on Monday and continue with the new vet. At the end of the day, money is replaceable and I want my pony to be happy.
 

sport horse

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Thank goodness I have a great equine vet practice whom I trust and they also trust me. If one of the young vets is not sure I ask the young vet to contact one of the partners. They can only learn by experience. Never a problem and if necessary the practice refer me to specialists if they think it is needed. Thank you to my vets - you know who you are if you know who I am!!!
 

JanetGeorge

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Thanks everyone for your replies.


- There was no rehab plan. He said a week would be enough to tell if the injections worked. Asked me to school in w, t, c and jump, agreed her behaviour was still just as bad. Took her out on a 'hack' to see how she was, same behaviour but all symptoms went away when heading home. He came to the conclusion it was behavioural and no other tests needed to be done. However he did say give it a couple more weeks to see if the Regumate works and if still the same, he will want to inject the close processes in her spine and look to giving her Modecate. Still no rehab plan for between this time was given.

- The new vet knows what is going on. They said when they inject the SI, they don't reassess for two to three weeks and advise to leave to rest until this time. I did pay them on the day of their visit as I would usually do. They don't think it's right what the vet had done before either. They've told me to rest her for two weeks and then we will go from there.

I can't BELIEVE that your first vets would think themselves capable of injecting steroids for 'suspected' KS without x-rays! Where the hell did they inject. And no rehab?? That is NOT providing a reasonable standard of care. I have had experience with KS - both wit surgery (unsuccessful in that mare and steroids didn't help either - and she had 3 weeks resy and 6 weeks rehab work AND a damn good physio involved all the way.) And with another (full brother) who only had 1 vertebrae affected - but had neurological problems as well (once we knew, the dam was very quickly retired - although by then there were 3 more foals that have all x-rayed clear.

May I suggest you ask your new vet to test her faeces for blood - not an expensive test - and the experiences you have had sound VERY similar to those with a home-bred mare - sold 18 months ago - and after a catalogue of handling/feeding AND an ill-fitting saddle she started bucking them off. She came back here to be 'fixed' - she STILL had hind gut ulcers - also 2/10ths lame in right hind. It took about 6 weeks of treatment - and re-backing before she was safe to ride and as time has gone on she has just got better. The owners' vet had also suggested KS - no way. But they had also blamed the lameness on suspensories! Thankfully owner has lost all confidence and wants me to sell her because I have no doubt that within a few months I'd probably have to fix her again! Your horse is lucky to have a sensible owner who cares - hopefully with your new vet she'll have a new chance with you.
 

Fruitcake

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I can't BELIEVE that your first vets would think themselves capable of injecting steroids for 'suspected' KS without x-rays! Where the hell did they inject?

I think the OP (or a post by the OP on another thread- I’ve lost track) said that they didn’t x-ray the SI but they had x-rayed the rest of the spine and had found one slightly suspect area. I assume that’s where they’re planning injecting. Sounds totally reasonable to me.
 

Ellietotz

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I think the OP (or a post by the OP on another thread- I’ve lost track) said that they didn’t x-ray the SI but they had x-rayed the rest of the spine and had found one slightly suspect area. I assume that’s where they’re planning injecting. Sounds totally reasonable to me.

Correct. It was a spinuous process that they thought was quite close although not touching which they would have gone to as a next step.
 

HufflyPuffly

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You're not in the North West are you? This sounds very very familiar to what an ex vet did to my horses notes, including the old "if you don't agree with me and do what I say you'll be committing insurance fraud".
 

Ellietotz

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You're not in the North West are you? This sounds very very familiar to what an ex vet did to my horses notes, including the old "if you don't agree with me and do what I say you'll be committing insurance fraud".

Nope, I wonder if the vet once moved though, sounds like him!
 

Ellietotz

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I thought you'd told him not to submit it?

No, I changed my mind before I wrote to him. I want to just try putting it through insurance. I have tried to explain multiple times that this issue is not pre-existing. There are two partners of that practice. Partner 1 treated her for ulcers previously and knows her. He also knows about the physio she had last summer and that she was sound. He did the first appointment in January for ovaries and hormone checks. He also did the flexion and said she was lame on the right hind. Partner 1 was actually the person who suggested to do a full lameness work up if the ovaries/hormone levels come back fine and he said by the end, when we hopefully find a diagnosis, we will put it all into one claim for the insurance. Unfortunately, Partner 2 was the only one available the day my mare went to the practice and is the one now causing all of the issues. I have told him that I will argue with the insurance company if I have to if he can just put the claim in. He has now sent me an email saying he is not willing to put his name on it and therefore the claim will not be submitted.
 

Ellietotz

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Ask to speak to Partner 1

I have copied him in my most recent reply to Partner 2. I did say to Partner 1 that I just want to deal with him, he then speaks to Partner 2 before responding to me and gets told 'everything is sorted'. I don't think he wants to get involved. That or Partner 2 has been telling him everything is fine when it isn't so that's why I copied him in so he can see what is going on.
 

Boots*McGruber

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If your vet suspected SI pain initially & then on a follow up visit changed his mind would that mean that the insurance company wouldn't pay for the injection? Surely if your vet treated the pony based on what he thought on that day then the insurance company should pay for the treatment anyway as it has already been given and given on the recommendation of a vet? Just curious, not had to do this myself yet.
 

Ellietotz

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Yes speak to partner one in a well planned and unemotional way

I have. The only time he came back to me was to say that Partner 2 tells him everything is sorted. I have told him it wasn't and what was going on, that I wanted him to take the case over again but I haven't heard back. I don't know what Partner 2 is telling him but hopefully now I have copied him into my most recent email to reply to Partner 2 saying he won't do the claim.
 

HufflyPuffly

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Nope, I wonder if the vet once moved though, sounds like him!

My ex vet is still in the same area so not him, but sounds like the same ego at work 🙄. I went to the RCVS who did take it seriously, but we just paid the bill and moved on in the end as we didn’t want to waste more time on it, sorry.
 

Bojingles

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I complained to the RCVS regarding what I considered to be the poor treatment by my local vet of my foal who subsequently had to be PTS at Leahurst. As I'd only ever seen any of the vets individually, I knew that it would be my word against theirs. The RCVS also make it clear that they won't intervene in financial disputes.

However, they did a very thorough investigation, and found various faults with the vet, including poor record-keeping and failure to label medications. Both of these failings would be kept on record. It helped a little to know that they had at least been pulled up on their sloppiness and it would potentially prevent them from making such "mistakes" again.
 

Ellietotz

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I cba to read the whole thread because I have a headache, but they can get struck off for manipulating records, so defo go to the RCVS if you haven't already

Just looking into filing a report with RCVS now. However, just looking at the practice's website, on his profile on "Meet the Team", it has a lot about how he is recognised by RCVS and on the equine board etc. Is there any point?
 

Ellietotz

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I wouldn’t complain, it will get you nowhere, I would change vets and move on ...

I wasn't really sure what to do if I'm honest. I have paid now but I still wanted to try and put it through insurance. I just wasn't sure how I can get them to do their part of the form.
 

Fruitcake

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I wasn't really sure what to do if I'm honest. I have paid now but I still wanted to try and put it through insurance. I just wasn't sure how I can get them to do their part of the form.
To be honest, even if you get them to do their part of the form, it sounds as if it could be a bit pointless. There’s usually a section where the vet is asked about previous treatment and similar conditions. Even with a vet on your side, it sounds like it’d be hard to make this claim sound unrelated to your horse’s previous veterinary history. If you’ve peed him off, he’s very unlikely to help you out with this!

If I were you, I’d chalk it up to experience, change vets and possibly try to keep the next vet onside.
 
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