Vets want people to stop buying Bulldogs

[SAujla]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-61799718

I think the damage is too far gone. I also disagree with them being undeniably cute, nothing about them appears cute to me

 

[meleeka]

I don’t understand why anyone would want a dog that has so many issues. A friend owns French Bulldogs and I genuinely don’t understand how she can not feel guilty every time she walks them and they struggle to breath. They do seem happy dogs (when they aren’t struggling for breath), but perhaps that’s just because they don’t know any different.

 

[fiwen30]

Briefly glanced at the article, but it mentions these problems came around due to ‘years of selective breeding’. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but then surely to rectify the problem it’ll also take years of selective breeding to reliably lengthen the snout again? And so what happens to all the dogs between now and then?

 

[I'm Dun]

Briefly glanced at the article, but it mentions these problems came around due to ‘years of selective breeding’. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but then surely to rectify the problem it’ll also take years of selective breeding to reliably lengthen the snout again? And so what happens to all the dogs between now and then?

They could fix it in one go with a cross to something long nosed like a whippet or terrier. Then they can spend the next few generations correcting the type. They wont, but that would be what I would do. Get a generation of healthy dogs on the ground first, then tweak type etc

 

[Pegasus5531]

I can't imagine the enjoyment of owning a dog that is visibly uncomfortable a lot of the time? I understand some people want dogs that don't need a lot of exercise so bulldogs may seem a good choice, but they only don't need a lot of exercise because they can't breathe properly which to me seems cruel! There are plenty of other breeds (greyhounds for example) that need limited exercise and are much healthier. If people are choosing them purely for looks and encouraging the health problems that is caused by this I think they should be ashamed.

 

[Cortez]

All of the bracycephalic breeds are just plain wrong, it is deeply cruel to have developed them in the first place. I absolutely adore pugs (for their personalities, not their deformed faces), but will never have a purebred. There are breeders who are outcrossing to produce a type with a longer nose, but they are very much in the minority and are routinely attacked and ostracised by the mainstream breeders. I have talked to breeders - of pugs, French bulldogs and boxers - they all insist that there is nothing wrong with breeding flat-faced dogs and that any problems are exaggerated or due to "bad" breeders.

 

[skinnydipper]

All of the bracycephalic breeds are just plain wrong, it is deeply cruel to have developed them in the first place

And not only dogs, brachycephalic cats and rabbits, too.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Re breeding, you don't 'fix' anything 'in one go'. If only it were that easy.

 

[fiwen30]

They could fix it in one go with a cross to something long nosed like a whippet or terrier. Then they can spend the next few generations correcting the type. They wont, but that would be what I would do. Get a generation of healthy dogs on the ground first, then tweak type etc

But would it really though? I’m thinking about cockapoo/labradoodles, and how it took x-generations to start producing a reliable outcome that didn’t just look like 2 breeds mangled together. I’m sure there have been (and still are) pups that pop out looking exactly like labradors or cockers, or anything in between.

’In 1 gen’ doesn’t seem likely, it sounds more like a whole lot of dogs with heavy bodies and spindly legs, long bodies and short legs, flat faces but a huge prey drive, etc. You might get a useful, beneficial cross from similar breeds (crossing spaniels, or retrieving breeds) but it seems far fetched to think out crossing bulldogs to whippets will just give long noses.

FYI, I’m absolutely pro-snout on these breeds, I just don’t think putting the onus onto puppy purchasers to ‘not buy puppies’ is the best way to go.

 

[Hepsibah]

It's not just external features, dogs bred to look a certain way are suffering because they aren't bred with health in mind. I've just lost an eight year old "well bred" KC registered chihuahua ex brood bitch whose offspring competed in shows up to crufts level and did well because of a heart defect that is shared by her aunt who we also took on after her breeding career was over. It gives the lie to the "improving the breed" nonsense you hear about in showing/KC breeding circles.

 

[Odyssey]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-61799718

I think the damage is too far gone. I also disagree with them being undeniably cute, nothing about them appears cute to me

I agree, on both counts. For welfare reasons the best thing would be for these breeds to die out. I find the look of the flat faced breeds totally unappealing, and just cannot understand how people can bear to own, or get pleasure from owning, dogs that struggle to breathe, never mind exercise. It's repugnant that these poor dogs suffer so much because some people find their looks, snuffling and snorting "cute".

Cavalier King Charles are another breed whose health problems are so awful that the breed seems too far gone to correct the problems. Almost all of them have syringomyelia, and that's without their breathing and heart problems, amongst others. I saw a video of a CKC screaming and running in circles due to syringomyelia, it was utterly horrendous to see. I know someone who has them, and the amount of health problems her last one had, and the amount of medications he needed, was shocking. It really makes me despair of humans that their desire to own certain breeds overrides concerns for the health and quality of life of the poor animals.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

I remember my daughter dragging husband and I to a Dogs Trust fun dog show type thing in Glasgow and there was a chap with a couple of British bulldogs in the queue in front of us. He was busy telling everyone who'd listen how eye wateringly expensive they were while he stood in line for a free microchip for them. Was round about this time in June too so the poor things were constantly snorting and gasping.

My dog caught sight of one of their ugly faces and back peddled at 100mph (the bulldog's face not the owners).

 

[I'm Dun]

But would it really though? I’m thinking about cockapoo/labradoodles, and how it took x-generations to start producing a reliable outcome that didn’t just look like 2 breeds mangled together. I’m sure there have been (and still are) pups that pop out looking exactly like labradors or cockers, or anything in between.

’In 1 gen’ doesn’t seem likely, it sounds more like a whole lot of dogs with heavy bodies and spindly legs, long bodies and short legs, flat faces but a huge prey drive, etc. You might get a useful, beneficial cross from similar breeds (crossing spaniels, or retrieving breeds) but it seems far fetched to think out crossing bulldogs to whippets will just give long noses.

Of course it wont, it will give funny looking dogs, but they will be able to breathe. The next 10 or 20 generations can be about getting back to the correct type. Any other way of doing it will still produce dogs that cant breathe properly.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Of course it wont, it will give funny looking dogs, but they will be able to breathe.

But that's not actually a given in the first cross. You don't always automatically get the best/what you are looking for.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

All of the bracycephalic breeds are just plain wrong, it is deeply cruel to have developed them in the first place. I absolutely adore pugs (for their personalities, not their deformed faces), but will never have a purebred. There are breeders who are outcrossing to produce a type with a longer nose, but they are very much in the minority and are routinely attacked and ostracised by the mainstream breeders. I have talked to breeders - of pugs, French bulldogs and boxers - they all insist that there is nothing wrong with breeding flat-faced dogs and that any problems are exaggerated or due to "bad" breeders.

We had a cavalier king charles when i was younger, he had a lovely long nose, good shaped head etc. Our ones after him slowly became more shorter nose and smaller heads it was heart breaking.

 

[Cortez]

We had a cavalier king charles when i was younger, he had a lovely long nose, good shaped head etc. Our ones after him slowly became more shorter nose and smaller heads it was heart breaking.

Yes, just have a look at paintings, and even old photos from the past. The look of many dogs has become more exaggerated and extreme in a relatively short time.

 

[Arzada]

I know someone who has them, and the amount of health problems her last one had, and the amount of medications he needed, was shocking. It really makes me despair of humans that their desire to own certain breeds overrides concerns for the health and quality of life of the poor animals.

The reception area/social club of a local vet is akin to a clique and in my limited experience I would say that having a dog with medical needs was part of the attraction and in consequence being part of a club of like minded owners.

 

[brighteyes]

I wish they would heavily penalise breeders and vet's should be duty bound to be as blunt as you like with owners.

I know someone who says it is her 'right' to have the sort of dog she likes the look of regardless of the disadvantages and health struggles of the dog. She got quite angry I should query the ethics of perpetuating the debilitating mutations she thinks are endearing characteristics.

She bought another bulldog pup. I despair.

It needs extending to all brachycephalic breeds and then further to any dog with a bred for modification which is physically deleterious to the dog and it's normal functioning.

 

[rabatsa]

Fifty years ago I used to go to a friends for lunch every day. They had a bull dog which lived under the dining table. Even then it used to snore and snuffle as it breathed and was not able to walk any further than the end of their road. Apparently it was a perfect specimen of the breed apart from one major fault - it was black and white.

The poor girl put me off any short nosed breeds.

 

[SilverLinings]

As a country we widely accept the morality of - and need for - animal welfare legislation, and most people profess not to want animals to suffer. Surely at some point it should be illegal to breed/own animals who have been knowingly bred for features that cause suffering (including flat faces, long backs, small skulls, excessive skin folds etc) or from lines with known defects (e.g. heart problems, sight/hearing problems etc).

Even if this meant whole breeds being outlawed (allowing current dogs to live out their lives) it would prevent a huge amount of avoidable suffering. Even removing the most severe examples of flat faces etc would make a difference; at the moment there is nothing stopping people intentionally breeding to further emphasise these defects. And yes, it should apply to cats and other species too.

The ignorance and selfishness of some pet owners is staggering IMO : the GF of a colleague of mine owns two cats with VERY flat (almost concave) faces, both of them had lost/had removed all of their teeth by the age of three due to problems caused by the deformed jaw shape required to produce the 'cute' face, and they have ongoing breathing problems. They also struggle to groom themselves properly due to the face shape. The owner is an acute hospital nurse and still can't see why any of this is ethically questionable, she just says that the breeder told her that it's 'normal' for that breed to loose their teeth, and thinks the 'snuffling' (laboured breathing) is cute. She wants to buy a pug or dachshund next, and thinks the information about the breeds' health problems is just 'jealous people' being 'haters'

 

[ester]

I do think we seem to have got very hung up on nose length when it’s really only part of the issue (hence why ckcs on part of the Norway situ)
Of course it is the most obvious from looking at and hearing, even after surgery for some.
but say the cancer rates in some non bracchy breeds should probably be getting similar attention although I guess they do have a decent life until that point.
The average breeding coefficients for some breeds is pretty scary tbh which is then generating the no way back without out crossing issue.

 

[SilverLinings]

The average breeding coefficients for some breeds is pretty scary tbh which is then generating the no way back without out crossing issue.

It seems absolutely ridiculous that since we became aware of genetics (in general, I realise most people don't have in depth knowledge) and the dangers of inbreeding breeders have continued to shrink the gene pools of so many breeds. It is stupid in the extreme, and damaging the breeds that they profess to love in the long run. It has been widely known for several decades that inbreeding and gene-pool-shrinking are not Good Things.

 

[SAujla]

. She wants to buy a pug or dachshund next, and thinks the information about the breeds' health problems is just 'jealous people' being 'haters'

What does she think they/we are jealous off? The constant vet bill or the inability to walk 5 minutes without having an exhausted dog. I don't understand how someone can see a dog breathing with such difficulty and think its okay.

Many places in the county will have very hot weather over the next 3 days, those poor dogs have all my sympathy

 

[Clodagh]

If very fat and sedentary people choose these breeds I can sort of see it. If you can’t walk very far, struggle with the heat and are generally a sofa dweller then perhaps you can see it’s a good option for a dog.
But, quite active people advocate these breeds, if you like exercise why would you choose a breed that can’t ? There’s an English top level footballer, I don’t remember her name, who has a bulldog. Why? How could you even look at your poor struggling mess of a thing and think ‘ ah, the perfect dog’?

 

[Clodagh]

But I suspect like obesity in the equine show ring there’s Jack Shit will ever be done about it.

 

[SilverLinings]

But I suspect like obesity in the equine show ring there’s Jack Shit will ever be done about it.

I didn't really want to 'like' that Clodagh, but sadly I suspect you are right.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

All of the bracycephalic breeds are just plain wrong, it is deeply cruel to have developed them in the first place. I absolutely adore pugs (for their personalities, not their deformed faces), but will never have a purebred. There are breeders who are outcrossing to produce a type with a longer nose, but they are very much in the minority and are routinely attacked and ostracised by the mainstream breeders. I have talked to breeders - of pugs, French bulldogs and boxers - they all insist that there is nothing wrong with breeding flat-faced dogs and that any problems are exaggerated or due to "bad" breeders.

I think this is half the issue, people who breed/own saying it’s because of a minority of ‘bad breeders’. Deluded springs to mind. Ethically, I could not ever have a brachy animal, how do owners sit and watch their pet suffering? I just don’t understand.

Cavalier King Charles are another breed whose health problems are so awful that the breed seems too far gone to correct the problems. Almost all of them have syringomyelia, and that's without their breathing and heart problems, amongst others. I saw a video of a CKC screaming and running in circles due to syringomyelia, it was utterly horrendous to see. I know someone who has them, and the amount of health problems her last one had, and the amount of medications he needed, was shocking. It really makes me despair of humans that their desire to own certain breeds overrides concerns for the health and quality of life of the poor animals.

I read, probably on here, that a Crufts winning CKC stud which had aired over 70 litters, was known to have syringomyelia. Utterly depresssing.

My dog caught sight of one of their ugly faces and back peddled at 100mph (the bulldog's face not the owners).

Mine were scared of a little French bulldog puppy. I wondered if it was the flat face.

I’m really disappointed that my goddaughter has 2 French bulldogs. I just can’t understand why she’d want dogs that aren’t fit for function. I look at my lot pinging round the woods and think it’s just what a dog wants, running round, why wouldn’t everyone want that for their pet?

Is it the Netherlands that has recently banned short muzzles on frenchies? I wonder how they’ll enforce that?

 

[GSD Woman]

I say that a breed that can't breed on its own or whelp on its own shouldn't be around. Corgi breeders are often doing planned C-sections here. They're gone to lose the ability to free whelp.

Several years ago a bulldog doing side to side AI died on the grounds of an AKC dog show. Of course the humans involved faced penalties and fines by AKC but that doesn't bring back the dog.

Let the spaniels interbreed for a few generations, the same with retrievers, herding dogs of similar type and so on. I believe it would help with genetic diversity.

 

[Nudibranch]

I wish the rough collie breeders would have a word with themselves. The coats these days are far too heavy and absolutely a welfare issue. It's a shame as they're otherwise relatively healthy dogs. I have to clip mine out chest to tail each summer and she's not even the hairiest example. I'm sure that would raise howls of dismay if I shared it on their social media groups but at least I then have a dog who can exercise.

 

[ycbm]

If they stopped offering insurance for bred-in problems then things might start to change. Especially whole life insurance where they pay out for the same condition until the dog dies. You can't get that for horses, why do they offer it for cats and dogs?
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