Vets want people to stop buying Bulldogs

[Petalpoos]

If they stopped offering insurance for bred-in problems then things might start to change. Especially whole life insurance where they pay out for the same condition until the dog dies. You can't get that for horses, why do they offer it for cats and dogs?
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With cynical hat on - maybe because the whole insurance and vet industry makes a lot of money from treating such deformities? From the insurance companies’ POV, having all these examples of expensive medical issues out there probably encourages more people to take out insurance on their dogs, whatever the breed and the vets can make a good income from the ongoing treatments that are required.

I do not see any incentive for vets or insurance companies to discourage all these appalling breeds. I have never been brave enough to ask the owners why they don’t try and breed their own child to look like one of these mutant dogs, but I must say I get close to it sometimes.

 

[skinnydipper]

If they stopped offering insurance for bred-in problems then things might start to change. Especially whole life insurance where they pay out for the same condition until the dog dies. You can't get that for horses, why do they offer it for cats and dogs?
.

Insurance companies know what they are doing, they don't lose out. Their charges vary according to breed, and known breed health problems. Covered for life policies are the most expensive.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I do think we seem to have got very hung up on nose length when it’s really only part of the issue (hence why ckcs on part of the Norway situ)
Of course it is the most obvious from looking at and hearing, even after surgery for some.
but say the cancer rates in some non bracchy breeds should probably be getting similar attention although I guess they do have a decent life until that point.
The average breeding coefficients for some breeds is pretty scary tbh which is then generating the no way back without out crossing issue.

I agree, the hip problems in GSDs and the numerous other problems in other breeds buy selective breeding should also be at the same level of concern.

I think collies are propably one of the only breeds who do not have this wide spread problem. Though happy to be corrected.

 

[I'm Dun]

I agree, the hip problems in GSDs and the numerous other problems in other breeds buy selective breeding should also be at the same level of concern.

I think collies are propably one of the only breeds who do not have this wide spread problem. Though happy to be corrected.

Sighthounds are remarkably healthy. They are very genetically diverse though. Lurchers are very common, people are aways outcrossing them and then breeding back to type. Mines a whippet, but he's working bred which means there's almost certainly a dash of something else in the mix.

A lot of people breed dogs that work. For those people if the dog doesn't work hard and well they don't breed, so that must help in keeping them fit for purpose.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

On a related topic, I'd like to see people refraining from breeding from dogs that are aged less than three years. Some potentially hereditary neurological problems such as epilepsy don't present until then.

 

[SilverLinings]

If they stopped offering insurance for bred-in problems then things might start to change. Especially whole life insurance where they pay out for the same condition until the dog dies. You can't get that for horses, why do they offer it for cats and dogs?
.

It's amazing that the insurance companies will provide cover for something avoidable (known defects that are bred for such as flat faces, or knowingly bred with a high risk for e.g. the offspring of a dog known to have a heart defect). I agree with you that stop offering insurance might cut down a bit on the desirability of these breeds, but I also worry that there are far too many owners already who wouldn't seek medical help for those problems as they happily accept it as part of their breed (e.g. laboured breathing in bulldogs).

There is also the issue of owners who want veterinary treatment but don't think that it is their responsibility to pay for it; the owners who pay £Ks for a puppy but then expect vet bills to be paid for via the PDSA or crowd funding, and wouldn't bother taking out insurance in the first place.

Insurance companies ceasing to insure such dogs/conditions AND loudly publicising why would hopefully make some difference though.

Sorry for thinking out loud/rambling, I'm basically agreeing with you YCBM, just wondering about the extent of the impact.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't want to vet bash but some of the cutesy 'look at these pups born by C-section' 'look at this cute litter of XL bullies' 'this pug came in to have it's nasal passage held open' etc etc on a local vet's page makes my teeth itch.

I was wondering when someone would bring up GSDs, we've managed to own GSDs with no hip problems (and yes, they're x-rayed to make sure) for over 60 years, accumulatively, both my adult males have had long working/sporting careers and remain sound at almost 10 and 12 respectively.
Whereas the backyard bred 'straight backed, big boned = MUST BE HEALTHIER' have been frequent fliers at the vet.

The difference is the lines were researched and there's generations of good health and working ability behind them.
A system that some people on these islands keep telling us it's 'too hard' to make mandatory because some people still want to breed from/show/work an unhealthy dog or one from unhealthy parents.
I was literally told in writing that making health criteria mandatory for showing 'would create unfair competition'.
GOOD!!

Things are improving in the kennel clubs (compared to the breed clubs) but it's at a slow crawl and they're often being dragged kicking and screaming before they turn round and make it look as if it was their idea all along.

I can't speak for the other breeds but you can absolutely find a healthy GSD if you're prepared to wait, do your research and chop anything that might present a red flag.
There are certain dogs I avoid like the plague despite themselves being healthy and doing well in competition/other people take the risk.

I collated some results for the vet who x-rayed my female and out of 15 he's done in this system in the last few years, one failed hips, a mainly working line with some unknowns in the motherline, the feeding/nutrition and husbandry wouldn't be how I would keep a dog, one failed elbows, again, working line and kept overweight on cheap food in not the best of conditions and has a dog or two in there known to throw bad elbows.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I agree, the hip problems in GSDs and the numerous other problems in other breeds buy selective breeding should also be at the same level of concern.

I think collies are propably one of the only breeds who do not have this wide spread problem. Though happy to be corrected.

Collies (if you mean Border Collies) do have quite a few issues that it is recommended they are tested for , including hip dysplasia, several eye conditions and MDR1 . There is also Border collie collapse which can be very scary to witness, I think there is research ongoing to try and identify the gene causing.

There are many, many breeders of GSDs who fully health test their dogs , however there are still so few people who are prepared to research before getting a pup. I am in several GSD groups and yes, there are people who post with the sad news their pups are showing signs of hd. The question is always asked "what were the parents scores?" and the answer always seems to be that they weren't but they were healthy/straight backed.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Collies (if you mean Border Collies) do have quite a few issues that it is recommended they are tested for , including hip dysplasia, several eye conditions and MDR1 . There is also Border collie collapse which can be very scary to witness, I think there is research ongoing to try and identify the gene causing.

There are many, many breeders of GSDs who fully health test their dogs , however there are still so few people who are prepared to research before getting a pup. I am in several GSD groups and yes, there are people who post with the sad news their pups are showing signs of hd. The question is always asked "what were the parents scores?" and the answer always seems to be that they weren't but they were healthy/straight backed.

Or 'just pets'

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Collies (if you mean Border Collies) do have quite a few issues that it is recommended they are tested for , including hip dysplasia, several eye conditions and MDR1 . There is also Border collie collapse which can be very scary to witness, I think there is research ongoing to try and identify the gene causing.

There are many, many breeders of GSDs who fully health test their dogs , however there are still so few people who are prepared to research before getting a pup. I am in several GSD groups and yes, there are people who post with the sad news their pups are showing signs of hd. The question is always asked "what were the parents scores?" and the answer always seems to be that they weren't but they were healthy/straight backed.

The thing is all breeds should have health testing done on them.

For me, i could be completely wrong, but i have seen less problems on the collie groups i am on than the cockers and cavi ones.

I rehomed a collie at five months. His parents had lovely hip scores but the owner of the pup walked him two hours every weekend because he was a collie so at a year old when i started noticing the signs we xrays and found bad HD.


CC i didn't bring up GSDs in that way. You see so much more press about how they look it becomes normal for the average person and they don't know that this is wrong. They just go and buy one. They do not know about the good breeders and that they need to wait.

My collies have always been rehomes, though my current one was born in a rescue. The parents where going there as they were failed sheep dogs, the lady who runs it only rehomes collies and she neuters them before they go for rehoming. But no one told the transport people on the boat the male had a knack for opening cages ?‍

From my collie i can see why the parents were failed working dogs.

My next one i know where to go and what health checks to check but my comment was more about the working lines.

It seems to me that the more popular the breed the more buggered up they are.

 

[twiggy2]

If they stopped offering insurance for bred-in problems then things might start to change. Especially whole life insurance where they pay out for the same condition until the dog dies. You can't get that for horses, why do they offer it for cats and dogs?
.

The cooperate company that bought out the vets I had worked for for over 10 yrs also owns online pet pharmacies, pet food manufacturers and pet insurance companies, the money goes round and round and creates a monopoly and shouldn't be allowed jn my opinion as its the pets and owners that suffer and the company rakes in the money.

I agree, the hip problems in GSDs and the numerous other problems in other breeds buy selective breeding should also be at the same level of concern.

I think collies are propably one of the only breeds who do not have this wide spread problem. Though happy to be corrected.

Collies have plenty of health issues and i fear it is only going to get worse because whilst trials are picking up in popularity and registered working collies are becoming more common the gene pool is shrinking massively, so many registered collies go back to so few in their breeding and some dogs are fathering massive amounts of litters from what I see and hear, the registration promotes testing but the gene pool is shrinking at an alarming rate .

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Sighthounds are remarkably healthy. They are very genetically diverse though. Lurchers are very common, people are aways outcrossing them and then breeding back to type. Mines a whippet, but he's working bred which means there's almost certainly a dash of something else in the mix.

A lot of people breed dogs that work. For those people if the dog doesn't work hard and well they don't breed, so that must help in keeping them fit for purpose.

Oh yes i forgot about sighthounds. They always seem ok.

 

[Clodagh]

Basically anything recognised by the KC is doomed to ruination.
Look at jack Russell’s? Ruined. The border terrier the same.
While terriers were terriers they were bred for soundness, stamina and drive. They needed to be handleable as if you want to get a terrier off a fox you don’t want it transferring it’s bite to you.
Foxhounds, only bred from if they are sound, and good workers.
Sighthounds, not greys or show whippets as I know nothing about them, but lurchers have historically been bred for catching food, again soundness is needed. And originally intelligence and a certain biddability.

 

[Clodagh]

Now that we are breeding dogs to be sofa cruising child substitutes no one cares if it’s fit for function.

 

[CorvusCorax]

The caveat with 'working dogs are healthier' is that in some cases, once they come to the end of their useful working lives they are binned and the dogs that are not healthy/cannot work are culled, either literally or figuratively, that's how the line stays healthy.
I enjoy my oldies and I care about longevity/long-term fitness as well as health/working ability when they are in their prime.
Some people are happy as long as they get their 3-5 years of work/sporting success and move on to the next one.
All my eldest male's male relatives seem to have lived up to 15 years old in relatively good health.

 

[Landcruiser]

With cynical hat on - maybe because the whole insurance and vet industry makes a lot of money from treating such deformities? From the insurance companies’ POV, having all these examples of expensive medical issues out there probably encourages more people to take out insurance on their dogs, whatever the breed and the vets can make a good income from the ongoing treatments that are required.

I do not see any incentive for vets or insurance companies to discourage all these appalling breeds. I have never been brave enough to ask the owners why they don’t try and breed their own child to look like one of these mutant dogs, but I must say I get close to it sometimes.

https://vetsagainstbrachycephalism.com/

https://www.vettimes.co.uk/news/sit...n7TEaLzGMzPYOGSRVH0O9rg0aIQJOwHLqB2ktRqzhT9lU

The incentive is that vets are NOT only in it for the money, they are in it because first and foremost they love and want to help animals. Nobody becomes a vet or works at a vet's to get rich - it's a tough job, pays far, far less than human medicine, and carries greater physical risks too. "The Vet Times" frequently carries articles about the problems of flat face breeds, and vets have enough work (see Worldwide vet shortage, particularly acute in the UK) without adding to the workload trying to sort out these poor deformed creatures - especially when half the time the owners can't/won't pay for what is needed and blame vets and vet staff for money grabbing.

 

[GSD Woman]

Nudibranch, by rough collie I'm guessing you mean the show type collie that is a distinct and different breed than the border collie that is still a working stock dog? Do they not have Collie Eye Anomaly? Here almost every rough and smooth collie carry the gene. Good breeders are trying to breed away from the problem.

 

[GSD Woman]

With cynical hat on - maybe because the whole insurance and vet industry makes a lot of money from treating such deformities? From the insurance companies’ POV, having all these examples of expensive medical issues out there probably encourages more people to take out insurance on their dogs, whatever the breed and the vets can make a good income from the ongoing treatments that are required.

I do not see any incentive for vets or insurance companies

I worked as a licensed technician (nurse) in vet med for 28 years. Trust me, I didn't do it for the money. If I had gone into human medicine I would have a nice fat retirement account, my house would be paid for and larger, and now that I CAN'T work I wouldn't be in the financial bind I'm in.

Vets come out of school over $100,000 in debt. They make a pittance compared to human doctors. And taking care of these brachycephalic breeds is no fun. They often need soft palate resections, surgery to correct stenotic nares. Never mind that running anesthesia on one of these is nerve wracking.

In it for the money, my ever broadening butt doesn't think so.

 

[Redders]

I’m going to wade in despite my mental health telling me it’s probably just better to ignore it, BUT……
I am a vet. I do not want income from dogs bred to suffer because humans want a certain look or trait. It drives me around the bend. We get enough money to continue to keep practices open from healthy animals doing themselves a mischief. It Breaks. My. Heart. everytime I see a dog suffering because of human choices. An exam where a dog can’t breathe? Horrific. Having to perform an anaesthetic and surgery on an animal JUST so it can actually breathe? No. They NEED that surgery BECAUSE of Milan owner breeder choices. The surgeries require skill out with just what you learn as routine, why on Earth shouldn’t we charge for it? And make a profit to pay our bills on it? There are times I would love to slap a Twit Tax on a bill for the sheer stupidity/neglect/disregard for welfare, but I don’t, because I am a professional who will uphold my standards to the highest of my abilities, and because it’s not actually an option to do that on a bill anyway.
you wanna buy or breed a dog like that? Fine, but you’ve made your bed. If it costs you money that’s your own fault. We post images of BOAS surgeries with educational posts in order to get people to realise that these dogs need these to stop their suffering and to educate. Not to show off.
FYI I don’t earn a large amount, I can’t afford many things although I appreciate I earn higher than average wage, because I spent 5 years and a lot lot lot of blood sweat and tears (literally) in order to be that person pet owners need in a crisis, and the person a wild animal needs when life has gone pear shaped for them.

now dismounting my soapbox carefully due to a very sore back thanks to a very large unruly dog seeing me yesterday who sent me flying

 

[Clodagh]

All vets, please do not think that Petalpoos opinion is common. Well I bloody well hope it’s not!
There’s always someone who thinks they should get something for nothing, someone else should fix their mistakes, it’s all a terrible misunderstanding.
I would say that I’ve gone to see the odd vet who I personally haven’t gone on with, but even the irritating ones. (And gosh vets are human too) have always treated my animals as very well as they can.

 

[SAujla]

Given the shortage of vets its probably not wise to give the ones we have a hard time. They see so much heartbreak and sadness, the best appointment they will commonly have is a yearly check up and booster, after that its downhill.

Me and my dog have stayed indoors since this morning and seen several dogs walking past on a very hot day, including some flat faced ones. The vets are then going to have to deal with this, it won't be pleasant and if an owner is stupid enough to walk a dog in this weather then they are stupid enough to give the vets and nurses a hard time as if its their fault.

 

[twiggy2]

When will people realise it is not the individual vet or vet nurse that is the one making any money, its the large cooperates that control the whole industry that do the animals, all their employees and the owners a disservice.
No one goes into animal medicine to get rich, the partnerships have all but disappeared due to the cooperates so the opportunity to make big money is extremely limited.
The vet that treats your animal is not the person who sets the costs nor is the nurse or the receptionist, its the faceless body behind the scenes that controls all and throws their employees under the bus and leaves them to deal with all the stress of the job unsupported.
It is a very unhappy industry these days and more vets leave after qualifying than stay, that surely says a lot?

 

[Petalpoos]

I was not having a go at individual vets, but, as twiggy2 has said above, I get the impression that the owners of the chains of vets that seem to have become increasingly common are more interested in maintaining profit margins than in preventing ill health. 3 of the largest vet groups are owned by private equity.

 

[GSD Woman]

Things are so bad in veterinary medicine that there are two movements. The first is Not One More Vet and the second is Not One More Vet Nurse. Control drug cabinets also have stickers for suicide prevention with phone numbers posted at some cabinets.

 

[Nudibranch]

Nudibranch, by rough collie I'm guessing you mean the show type collie that is a distinct and different breed than the border collie that is still a working stock dog? Do they not have Collie Eye Anomaly? Here almost every rough and smooth collie carry the gene. Good breeders are trying to breed away from the problem.

Yes rough collie as opposed to border. They do carry CEA but I believe the incidence of severely affected is about 5%, in the UK at least. Hence my use of "relatively" healthy! Mine is CEA clear and afaik it's recessive so shouldn't be the hardest thing to avoid really. Likewise PRA isn't an issue in UK roughs but is a problem in the US (although I personally prefer the US collies who are more like the original roughs imo). Mine is an MDR1 carrier (one copy) which has no implications other than we avoid certain drugs.

There are border show lines btw, and my rough is quite useful herding sheep and hens. And goats actually...

 

[GSD Woman]

There are border show lines btw, and my rough is quite useful herding sheep and hens. And goats actually...

That is nice about the show lines border collies. I'm not at all surprised about your rough being useful. There are some breeders who are doing farm work after their show dogs finish their championship. I've seen some and they are lovely dogs.

My older GSD has worked sheep and goats in the past. My younger dog hasn't been on stock but she has chased foxes away from our chickens and then trots around the chicken pen making sure all is well.

I have friends with AKC Championships on their GSDs that are also herding champions. They do mostly C course which is a smaller version of the SV HGH. These are not the extreme GSDs but a more moderate show lines type. There are several dual champions, breed ring and herding, and 3 triple champions. they have a third AKC championship. T-Rex had his obedience trial championship, Rave and Cha Ching are also agility champions. T-Rex was more European working type which makes it even more amazing.

I just realized how badly I derailed this thread. thanks everyone for keeping me from running around screaming while watching the Jan 6 hearings.

 

[SAujla]

That is nice about the show lines border collies. I'm not at all surprised about your rough being useful. There are some breeders who are doing farm work after their show dogs finish their championship. I've seen some and they are lovely dogs.

My older GSD has worked sheep and goats in the past. My younger dog hasn't been on stock but she has chased foxes away from our chickens and then trots around the chicken pen making sure all is well.

I have friends with AKC Championships on their GSDs that are also herding champions. They do mostly C course which is a smaller version of the SV HGH. These are not the extreme GSDs but a more moderate show lines type. There are several dual champions, breed ring and herding, and 3 triple champions. they have a third AKC championship. T-Rex had his obedience trial championship, Rave and Cha Ching are also agility champions. T-Rex was more European working type which makes it even more amazing.

I just realized how badly I derailed this thread. thanks everyone for keeping me from running around screaming while watching the Jan 6 hearings.

Derail away, once a thread goes to the second page its a free-for-all. Those Jan 6 insurrection hearings deserve their own thread.

I'm having a lovely 10pm walk with Clover who is having the sniffing time of her life with all the new smells at this time . I dread to think how those flat faced dogs will cope tomorrow, if they get heatstroke over the weekend when some vets only run limited/emergency services its going to be even worse.

 

[GSD Woman]

I'm having a lovely 10pm walk with Clover who is having the sniffing time of her life with all the new smells at this time . I dread to think how those flat faced dogs will cope tomorrow, if they get heatstroke over the weekend when some vets only run limited/emergency services its going to be even worse.

Having seen enough overheated dogs I wouldn't be surprised. Rudy had heat stroke when he was young. I was working in an ER place and broke a bunch of traffic laws to get there. My father had died that January and I remember asking him wherever he was to not let my dog die. It must have worked because Rudy came through it just fine. I am now very aware of how much effort he'll exert in the summer and keep him chilled. He's chilled out now due to age but Freddie is another one who would play ball until she dropped. I keep a child's wading pool in the back for them. They jump in when they get warm.

 

[SAujla]

Having seen enough overheated dogs I wouldn't be surprised. Rudy had heat stroke when he was young. I was working in an ER place and broke a bunch of traffic laws to get there. My father had died that January and I remember asking him wherever he was to not let my dog die. It must have worked because Rudy came through it just fine. I am now very aware of how much effort he'll exert in the summer and keep him chilled. He's chilled out now due to age but Freddie is another one who would play ball until she dropped. I keep a child's wading pool in the back for them. They jump in when they get warm.

I'm very glad he was okay, its probably harder in America with the heat depending on where you live? I've stayed with family in Arizona and the heat is so extreme for someone coming from the UK I don't know how they can ever find a right time to walk their dogs

 

[GSD Woman]

Today's high is to be in the upper 90s with a heat index of 103. If it was a typical humid day it would be even higher. The next 3 days will be in the 80s with Saturday and Sunday night in the 50s. I'll be able to take the dogs for a run chasing the tennis balls. They'll be in heaven.

I need to start getting out of bed when the alarm goes off so that they can have a short, early walk in the morning. And Rudy is smart enough that when he's getting warmer he goes in the house and heads to the bathroom so that I can hose him down in the shower.