Vibes for poor old Bertie donkey please.

Is there any chance of your vet prescribing Pergolide as a last resort, to see if it will break the cycle? Cushings laminitis produces pain which is very hard to control. It doesn't follow the normal laminitis rules. I had a horse with Cushings, and can share your despair. Hope you can find something that works for him.
 
Re blood letting, I have no personal experience but did read about it in one of the James Herriot books! It was a last resort but worked, to his surprise as it was an old, disregarded practice, alongside standing in a cold stream. As blood letting is not particularly painful via cannula, I would speak with the vet for your thoughts.
 
You couldn't make it up! I shouldn't have uncrossed my fingers with little Jessie, extremely ill overnight, right down to chronic bloody diarrhea and vomiting. Long story short we are now back from hours at the vets, she is also back on all the meds she had earlier this year when they had her in the hospital. She is very quiet and exhausted now and sleeping, but at least they let her come home with us. She is to go back to the hospital immediately if she worsens over this weekend, if not back again Monday. Although tired she does seem more settled and less panting and dribbly, probably the steroid kicking in hopefully.

The vets actually now admit that despite all their tests earlier in the year they still are not 100 per cent what is wrong with her, her bloods are all over the place again and they still confirm probably some sort of auto immune issue amongst other things but quite stumped by her apparently. My poor little black piglet, trust her to be unique in her health problems. 😟

Bertie still much the same today, he is also booked for vet Monday so somehow we have to juggle the logistics for both of them, but will muddle through it all somehow I guess. To answer a couple of helpful suggestions:

Highmileagereindeer said:
Is there any chance of your vet prescribing Pergolide as a last resort, to see if it will break the cycle? Cushings laminitis produces pain which is very hard to control. It doesn't follow the normal laminitis rules. I had a horse with Cushings, and can share your despair. Hope you can find something that works for him.
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Yes we are going to request this on Monday. I agree about how hard this particular bout is to control so probably Cushings, I have dealt with lammi in a few different ones over the years and this is the most resistant one to any improvement I have had to deal with. I recall one old timer we did have to give up on with lammi due to Cushings, absolutely nothing would resolve the level of pain he was in and the decision was made sadly.:(
Red-1 said:
Re blood letting, I have no personal experience but did read about it in one of the James Herriot books! It was a last resort but worked, to his surprise as it was an old, disregarded practice, alongside standing in a cold stream. As blood letting is not particularly painful via cannula, I would speak with the vet for your thoughts.
Click to expand...

I read up on the blood letting last night and I will mention it to my vet but he is very progressive and I have a feeling he might resist that idea but we will see Monday. Strangely enough with the cold water in a cold stream, we do not have one near enough to get him to but in our area over the years we had communal use of a huge low metal tray with a hose attachment one end and a drain hole the other. I have used it about 15 years ago on the old horse mentioned above, a very big horse but the tray was quite big enough to stand him in with a hay net for a good hour or so whilst the cold water ran over his hooves.

It was recommended by my old vet and I maintain it did give a good deal of relief. I know the idea went out of fashion but I believe recent research has shown that there is some science behind it. We went searching for the foot bath yesterday, nobody has it and the old farmer who stored it in his barn is long dead now and the barn no longer exists so heaven knows what happened to the tray. I am not sure how Bertie would have reacted to walking into that though and the cold water but we would have managed somehow. Desperate measures and all that.

So flipping tired, isn't it so relentless when you have more than one ill at the same time. I am almost feeling immune to worrying now, sort of all worried out and what will be, will be. We just do our best don't we? 😩🤷‍♀️
 
Capalldonn said:
Not in English, unfortunately.

In a nutshell bloodletting makes the blood thinner and that reduces the pressure in the blood vessels and improves the blood circulation. It also makes the body produce new, healthier blood. All this reduces the inflammation in the hooves.

It's not as brutal as you might think, if you've never heard it before. A needle (probably a cannula?) is put into the jugular vein, basically like you'd prepare the horse for an infusion. I can't quite remember (it's been a while), maybe a second needle is then put into the cannula (or maybe not) to let the blood flow. The blood is collected in a measuring container so you (rather the vet) know when it's enough and still safe. The amount depends on the size/weight of the animal. When it's enough the needle comes out and the bleeding stops shortly afterwards. It can make the horse a bit sleepy but otherwise no unwanted side effects. If necessary, the horse can have an infusion right afterwards to make up for the lost blood, but that's for the vet to decide. My horse didn't get one.
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I have never seen it done, so can't comment on the practicalities but have certainly heard of bloodletting as a treatment for laminitis, also walking in cold flowing water - both very okd-fadhioned treatments but that's not necessarily a bad thing
 
Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls said:
You couldn't make it up! I shouldn't have uncrossed my fingers with little Jessie, extremely ill overnight, right down to chronic bloody diarrhea and vomiting. Long story short we are now back from hours at the vets, she is also back on all the meds she had earlier this year when they had her in the hospital. She is very quiet and exhausted now and sleeping, but at least they let her come home with us. She is to go back to the hospital immediately if she worsens over this weekend, if not back again Monday. Although tired she does seem more settled and less panting and dribbly, probably the steroid kicking in hopefully.

The vets actually now admit that despite all their tests earlier in the year they still are not 100 per cent what is wrong with her, her bloods are all over the place again and they still confirm probably some sort of auto immune issue amongst other things but quite stumped by her apparently. My poor little black piglet, trust her to be unique in her health problems. 😟

Bertie still much the same today, he is also booked for vet Monday so somehow we have to juggle the logistics for both of them, but will muddle through it all somehow I guess. To answer a couple of helpful suggestions:



Yes we are going to request this on Monday. I agree about how hard this particular bout is to control so probably Cushings, I have dealt with lammi in a few different ones over the years and this is the most resistant one to any improvement I have had to deal with. I recall one old timer we did have to give up on with lammi due to Cushings, absolutely nothing would resolve the level of pain he was in and the decision was made sadly.:(


I read up on the blood letting last night and I will mention it to my vet but he is very progressive and I have a feeling he might resist that idea but we will see Monday. Strangely enough with the cold water in a cold stream, we do not have one near enough to get him to but in our area over the years we had communal use of a huge low metal tray with a hose attachment one end and a drain hole the other. I have used it about 15 years ago on the old horse mentioned above, a very big horse but the tray was quite big enough to stand him in with a hay net for a good hour or so whilst the cold water ran over his hooves.

It was recommended by my old vet and I maintain it did give a good deal of relief. I know the idea went out of fashion but I believe recent research has shown that there is some science behind it. We went searching for the foot bath yesterday, nobody has it and the old farmer who stored it in his barn is long dead now and the barn no longer exists so heaven knows what happened to the tray. I am not sure how Bertie would have reacted to walking into that though and the cold water but we would have managed somehow. Desperate measures and all that.

So flipping tired, isn't it so relentless when you have more than one ill at the same time. I am almost feeling immune to worrying now, sort of all worried out and what will be, will be. We just do our best don't we? 😩🤷‍♀️
Click to expand...
My vets still recommend cold running water treatment for laminitis, the amount of pain relief it can bring is really impressive.
 
Sending vibes for both still Mrs J 🤞☘️
An idea, if you’re wanting to cool Bertie’s feet, is rather than have him stand in a soggy cold wet mud field, bring the mud to him, if you can.
There’s a section of my hardstanding that is like a mini spring, and despite hardcore being laid there, the spring causes soft mushy adobe pink yellow clay to ooze-up through the hardcore. I notice my more footy-prone mare stand in that cold wet gooey clay area whenever foot tenderness due to her gut slightly out of balance due to grazing changes etc.
For both of mine, I have consistently noticed a pattern of foot issues with gut change/distress/toxicity. Gut and feet health have been a consistent link to my observations. The gelding doesn’t get lami, for him it’s abscesses.
These are rare episodes but the behaviour remains consistent with them freely finding cold wet mud to stand in, to relieve foot pressure.
I allow them whenever needed to get out into the wettest muddiest grazing place whenever they have gut instability and foot tenderness. The cold mud reduces inflammation - a bit like the ‘tie them to a post in a stream with a haynet’ old idea that was done years ago for lami-type attacks.

If your son is able to dig some square sods of soggy mud from anywhere, and place it where Bertie is, if Bertie needs it, he’ll likely use it to cool his feet off.

I’ve also used ingestible green powder clay wetted and mixed with sloppy speedibeet, for gut/foot distress - to absorb toxins in the gut as a ‘just in case’ measure. 1 or 2 small meals - It’ll help if that’s the issue. They don’t need loads. It doesn’t upset the gut biome balance like antibiotics can, and just allows any potential gram positive nasties to be absorbed.

As an aside, I have patches of clay just beneath top soil in random places, and the horses dig there to lick the clay whenever their guts/feet are imbalanced. Before there’s even visual clues of an issue. They tend to love licking and eating clay. My foal and dam loved to eat pure fresh dug peat, from our peat field drain pile, presumably for the rich array of minerals.
There was an author, who said about giving the racehorses a chunk of sod for the minerals and bacteria regularly. The lady advocating for the first basic type of mineral mix balancer home made….forget her name right this moment.

I sincerely hope they both pull through and regain stable health for the holidays so you all can have a good rest. It’s such a worry when they are ill, and I hope all the HHO crew vibes being sent kick back whatever ails them, and helps to turn the corner to recovery and health 💜
 
I’m aware of bloodletting being carried out by vets from a practice attached to one of the top vet hospitals in the UK, within the past three years. It wasn’t to treat laminitis, but another inflammation (don’t know the full details - just that horse was a very unusual case). It certainly seemed to alleviate symptoms.

ETA - wishing poor Bertie and Jess all the best for speedy recoveries.
 
One of mine had a very severe laminitis attack after a steroid injection. He was given acp as well as pain relief and had frog supports with something like these things taped onto his feet. I thought at one point I would lose him but he pulled through. My farrier also said that cold therapy is considered helpful but it wasn't possible for my horse though as my vet had wrapped the feet up already.

totalfootprotection.co.uk

Styrofoam Support System First Aid Laminitis Kits

Styrofoam Support System First Aid Laminitis Kit has proven to be an effective step in the early first aid treatment of laminitis.
totalfootprotection.co.uk totalfootprotection.co.uk
 
Stand his feet in feed buckets of cold water, if you want to try cold therapy. That way he doesn't have to walk to the water, it comes to him.
I have an old veterinary manual from 1886 that mentions blood letting and cold water soaks. And also soaking the feet in hot water in order to soften the hooves in order to remove the shoes without trauma, as shoes must never be nailed to a laminitic foot.
 
Late update, thanks for all suggestions, just briefly as I am not doing great today. Yes Bertie has a very wet softy muddy area alongside the spongy wet mossy main standing area. We have no shortage of wet mud and used the method several times over the years with great success. This is one donkey that would most definitely not cooperate with standing even one foot in a bucket for more than a nano second, even at death's door he would fight that to the end. Would have been great if he would. Will be asking vet about giving meds for anything and everything he thinks we can throw at him, I will also ask about the blood letting.

Frankly I think we are well beyond that now, I am becoming more and more convinced that what I am allowing now is both unethical and cruel. Please remember that this is a donkey that's mobility is already compromised due to long term problems with arthritis, particularly on his back end. I have nursed many sick and unsound horses and ponies and donkeys over the years, I have always called time when appropriate, I think I might have been a little too easily persuaded to give the one last chance this time. But that's for tomorrow.

Jessie still here with us but also very low and some strange behaviour, but again that is for tomorrow.

Thanks all. appreciate all advice and healing vibes.
 
FWIW I had my pony pts in similar circumstances last year. I could have got her over the laminitis, (hers wasn't that bad) but for what? Her future would have been just waiting for her arthritis to get worse and watching her like a hawk for laminitis and she was already on 3 prascend, so nowhere to go with that. It would have been just putting the inevitable off for a bit longer.

Only you can know what the right thing to do is, and I've no doubt you'll make the right decisions.
 
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