Warmbloods and soundness

Lyle said:
Mine is by a currently competing GP dressage stallion, AEA Metallic (Metall) Dam was by Falkland Victory, by Falkland, very influential stallions in Australian WB breeding :) producing both jumping and dressage horses up to GP.
Click to expand...

I always associate Australian horses with toughness, I think from seeing them and the Kiwis event. Do you think it's a a fair impression?
 
A friend of mine who rides dressage at Grand Prix level has had enough of warmbloods. She thinks their soundness problems come from being too closely line bred.
She's going back to the traditional Irish sport horse for her next youngster.
 
mule said:
A friend of mine who rides dressage at Grand Prix level has had enough of warmbloods. She thinks their soundness problems come from being too closely line bred.
She's going back to the traditional Irish sport horse for her next youngster.
Click to expand...

Not the easiest thing to find now as so many have WB in them I have just got one his grand sire was 3/4 TB and I would guess the 1/4 would be tradional Irish coloured cob.
So few tb cross stallions have tradional types as the non tb blood .
 
I'm from Ireland so there are still plenty around here! But it is scary that a lot of Warmbloods have been bred in to the ISH without regard for the effect on soundness and temperament.
The breeders think the warmblood will make them more marketable for international buyers but anyone who buys from Ireland wants an Irish horse. If you want a warmblood you will buy from Germany or Holland surely?
 
We had a German bred Hanovarian we bought as a 5yo. She won her first ever event that year and show jumped and evented with us for several years. We then put her in foal and after that she did some dressage, up to medium. We sold her to a friend and at 17 she is still completely sound.

Our ISH x KWPN evented to 2* and is a very tough sound little horse. He did injured a tendon in an accident towards the end of his career but fully recovered.

We also have an Irish horse with unrecorded breeding but his movement would certainly suggest some warmblood , again so far he has remained sound.

I have known sveral warmbloods with OCD fragments, most have had them removed sucessfully. Others I know have had typical warmblood big movement but not had the conformation or muscular development to support it and have consequently had problems. I think often they are pushed too soon and people don't think about training and fitness they need to stay sound.
 
To he honest I am not surprised there are problems, I am sure if you tracked TB's one year and traced what they were doing at six/seven many would not be standing on four legs, for what ever reason.
I visited a warmblood stud and was amazed at how all the youngsters looked like TB's and also were scaled down versions of their dams.
When I was young, horses were old at 14, no one had school and most of your exercise was done in straight lines over a period of six days. Even riding on a rough dealers yard, they were not worked that hard, we very rarely cantered in summer when out and then only when it was soft. We had a sand track, through the farmers fields.
Now the poor devils are ridden in circles, I hate the pessoa, an excuse for torture that the horse is tied into to create the much lauded banana shape and driven in endless circles. Most people are trying to fit in a hours work in half an hour so it must go faster, and work harder, with no warm up and cool down. I was taught to lunge in an oval and use all the school, if nothing else it keep you fit.
My only 'warmblood' was a reject put on the lorry to make up a load on the ferry. He had one very pigeon toe but passed a 5 stage vetting. When he filled out he had buttressing splints the size of hens eggs on both front legs, but was sound all his life, his only vets bill a hoof abscess.
I am one of those sad people who love looking at breeding, mainly to see what's the fashion. No one markets their stallion on progeny soundness, the one that are rubbish are just not registered or sold with a basic passport or maybe over the Channel eaten.
 
ycbm said:
Well, yes, not quite your average warmblood!

d3c924f2195bbb051f5bbc8873da1eab--american-saddlebred-favorite-things.jpg
Click to expand...

I reckon Tatts parents where very lucky when they got on that plane to Holland
 
ycbm said:
I always associate Australian horses with toughness, I think from seeing them and the Kiwis event. Do you think it's a a fair impression?
Click to expand...

ycbm said:
I always associate Australian horses with toughness, I think from seeing them and the Kiwis event. Do you think it's a a fair impression?
Click to expand...

I would say as a generalisation, yes. WB breeding in Aus, for a long time has been likened to being behind the rest of the world (again, speaking in generalisations). Perhaps it's the strong infusion of these older fashioned 'working' types?

My horse has 'old fashioned' lines on the dam's side, coarser horses with more bone. The more modern breeding of the sire has produced a more refined, yet still strong type. Body workers and Physios really like what the cross has produced in my horse. He's not conformationally perfect, but he's got great bone, compact and relatively well balanced (now that he's grown a wither finally at 8!). Not flash moving. but a very useful type of horse.
 
My horse is an oldenburg x connemara, by rubin star n who I think is an elite stallion.

Major problem with him has recently been kissing spine but its being treated without surgery so hopefully he will now be fixed.

He's had one cut that has resulted in stable rest due to location, on the fetlock. No lameness but it wouldn't heal while allowed to move.

Other than that he gets cuts all the time from his field mates because he wants to play and they don't. Ripped I don't know how many rugs from this cheeky behaviour too. He is never nasty and none of them have cuts, he just either doesn't know boundaries or doesn't care (thinking the latter as he has been bitten enough times now to know better).

I imagine some owners would keep him isolated so he has no scars (been told to do that by some people). But he'd be depressed so I won't. Plus the average cut can be treated with wound cream, very rarely do I have to call the vet out.
 
rachk89 said:
My horse is an oldenburg x connemara, by rubin star n who I think is an elite stallion.

Major problem with him has recently been kissing spine but its being treated without surgery so hopefully he will now be fixed.

He's had one cut that has resulted in stable rest due to location, on the fetlock. No lameness but it wouldn't heal while allowed to move.

Other than that he gets cuts all the time from his field mates because he wants to play and they don't. Ripped I don't know how many rugs from this cheeky behaviour too. He is never nasty and none of them have cuts, he just either doesn't know boundaries or doesn't care (thinking the latter as he has been bitten enough times now to know better).


I had one like that and he was a pain in the a*se. He just wanted to play all the time and annoyed the proverbial so finally ended up on his own to give the others a break. What did work before I moved her onto retirement was being put out with my old mare. She put him in his place with no wounds and he behaved around her. Worth a try with a bossy mare (who doesn't kick!)
Click to expand...
 
At my yard one of our most talented warmbloods is constantly lame, it's so sad because she's been on box rest for months, and she's practically made to compete, yet no one can take her anywhere with her legs and hooves in such a mess. I definitely wouldn't recommend a warmblood from anywhere if you aren't prepared to wrap it in cotton wool and pay some vet and farrier fees. We have Belgian, German, and Dutch, and our German is the strongest. However, we also have an ISH, and she's really flashy, gorgeous, sweet, and sturdy. I'd recommend an ISH to be honest, but each horse is different so you may have more luck than we did with warmbloods.
 
Luci07 said:
I had one like that and he was a pain in the a*se. He just wanted to play all the time and annoyed the proverbial so finally ended up on his own to give the others a break. What did work before I moved her onto retirement was being put out with my old mare. She put him in his place with no wounds and he behaved around her. Worth a try with a bossy mare (who doesn't kick!)
Click to expand...

I wish I could but they keep the geldings separate from the mares here, plus he has to be on rigcalm to stop him jumping ontop of the geldings which works with them, not sure if it would with a mare though. I don't think any of the people who have mares would want him with their horses, he is too likely to mount them.

I have noticed though recently sometimes it seems he gets 'kicked out' of the group of geldings and he is off by himself which is unusual as usually he is with at least one other horse. I think they must have lost it with him recently and chased him away, but then a few days later he is back with them. Hopefully it keeps him in check but unlikely.
 
TheBayThoroughbred said:
At my yard one of our most talented warmbloods is constantly lame, it's so sad because she's been on box rest for months, and she's practically made to compete, yet no one can take her anywhere with her legs and hooves in such a mess. I definitely wouldn't recommend a warmblood from anywhere if you aren't prepared to wrap it in cotton wool and pay some vet and farrier fees. We have Belgian, German, and Dutch, and our German is the strongest. However, we also have an ISH, and she's really flashy, gorgeous, sweet, and sturdy. I'd recommend an ISH to be honest, but each horse is different so you may have more luck than we did with warmbloods.
Click to expand...

It's worth mentioning that ISH is a type of warmblood. Traditionally a hot blood (TB) crossed with cold blood (ID), but you will find a lot of the modern ISH have the typical European 'warm blood' in them, e.g. KWPN x TB.
 
I'm horrified by all the fragile warmbloods!

Obviously the ISH is technically a warmblood as AandK said, and my personal opinion is the introduction of contintental warmblood blood into the traditional ID x TB is a crying shame, as the original true ID x TB was such a wonderful horse.

I also disagree with the view that the better bred warmbloods are the most fragile, I think when you breed from the horses that have proved themselves at the highest level in their chose discipline, then you are automatically breeding a certain level of physical strength and toughness, far better that than breeding from the latest super flashy 3/4yr old that has proved nothing.

Personally I have ridden warmbloods for over a decade, competing at dressage up to GP, and the only soundness issue have had was one horse that got badly kicked in the field, which is certainly not a warmblood specific injury! I've never had a horse that has had a joint injection, or that has recieved any specialised veterinary care to do its job, they all have daily turn out, hack etc.
 
I also disagree with the view that the better bred warmbloods are the most fragile, I think when you breed from the horses that have proved themselves at the highest level in their chose discipline, then you are automatically breeding a certain level of physical strength and toughness, far better that than breeding from the latest super flashy 3/4yr old that has proved nothing.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this if figures were published on how many failed before they even got to prove themselves.
 
ycbm, thats a good point, and I would also be interested in seeing figures like that, but even without such evidence I would still prefer to be breeding from the horses who have proved themselves physically and mentally.
 
AandK said:
It's worth mentioning that ISH is a type of warmblood. Traditionally a hot blood (TB) crossed with cold blood (ID), but you will find a lot of the modern ISH have the typical European 'warm blood' in them, e.g. KWPN x TB.
Click to expand...

The traditional ISH does not have continental blood .
It was interesting when I was looking recently the most expensive horse I saw was a beautiful traditional ISH it's was a lovely lovely horse .
But the dealers and producers actually will tell you this ones tradional breeding I have never come across that before . They are definatly awake to the fact that there are people about looking for traditional sport horses .
 
Do you think some times certain lameness issues could be brought on by the horse still needing to grow? grabbing straws here.. but like ligaments... you hear about this in children, that they get grow spurts .. and other parts of the body need to catch up?
 
There are some breeders of the ISH who are concerned about the infusion of continental warmblood into the breed. They have set up the Traditional Irish horse Association within the ISH studbook. Any horse with this acronym can only have ID/ TB / Connemara breeding.
 
daffy44 said:
ycbm, thats a good point, and I would also be interested in seeing figures like that, but even without such evidence I would still prefer to be breeding from the horses who have proved themselves physically and mentally.
Click to expand...

This is the only study I know of. Median length of career of dressage Hanoverians is shockingly short at five years from first competing, but it's not completely clear without reading the entire thing what the reasons for it are. The abstract is also a bit confusing, suggesting that the horses are dead when the career stops but I think that may be a mis translation.


The full study is available to download, but it's in German and mine is nowhere near good enough. Is there a German reader on the forum willing to read it and tell us what it says - it looks very technical!?
 
Last edited:
ycbm said:
All three of my purchased warmbloods had terrific papers and for their age and level of training were expensive horses. For different reasons, none of them could do the job they were bought to do and two were dead by ten years old. My friend's elite mare, Hannoverian lines British Warmblood which cost over thirty grand has spavins at eleven when she's done almost nothing in her life. I do think that there are serious issues with breeding for movement to the exclusion of longevity.

I doubt if the less well bred warmbloods actually have the same level of physical/mental issues, and I expect they make good all rounders, a bit like good IDx, the original 'Warmblood'.
Click to expand...

I will go out and pat my 21 year old Danish Warmblood. When is a horse old like a car it depends how well it was looked after and how it was driven(ridden0.
 
ycbm said:
This is the only study I know of. Median length of career of dressage Hanoverians is shockingly short at five years from first competing, but it's not completely clear without reading the entire thing what the reasons for it are. The abstract is also a bit confusing, suggesting that the horses are dead when the career stops but I think that may be a mis translation.



Perhaps they meant that the injuries resulted in euthanasia?
Click to expand...
 
ycbm said:
All three of my purchased warmbloods had terrific papers and for their age and level of training were expensive horses. For different reasons, none of them could do the job they were bought to do and two were dead by ten years old. My friend's elite mare, Hannoverian lines British Warmblood which cost over thirty grand has spavins at eleven when she's done almost nothing in her life. I do think that there are serious issues with breeding for movement to the exclusion of longevity.

I doubt if the less well bred warmbloods actually have the same level of physical/mental issues, and I expect they make good all rounders, a bit like good IDx, the original 'Warmblood'.
Click to expand...

The WBSFH and Emma Thoren did research into how horses from the major studbooks lasted in competition to see if modern breeding programs extended their active life but ran into problems because horses changed hands,countries and names. The KWPN have done a lot of work in their breeding program to breed out genetic problems that have been identified in bloodlines there was Australian research which identified over 100 genes including sweetich. The consensus among breeding directors and Katherine Stock's research is that has happened is that the health of horses has been improved by the breeeding programs and genetic selection will create sounder horses.
 
ycbm said:
This is the only study I know of. Median length of career of dressage Hanoverians is shockingly short at five years from first competing, but it's not completely clear without reading the entire thing what the reasons for it are. The abstract is also a bit confusing, suggesting that the horses are dead when the career stops but I think that may be a mis translation.


The full study is available to download, but it's in German and mine is nowhere near good enough. Is there a German reader on the forum willing to read it and tell us what it says - it looks very technical!?
Click to expand...

If you PM me the link I'll have a read of it :)
 
mule said:
A friend of mine who rides dressage at Grand Prix level has had enough of warmbloods. She thinks their soundness problems come from being too closely line bred.
She's going back to the traditional Irish sport horse for her next youngster.
Click to expand...

It is interesting to note the eventer Red Baron passported as an Irish Sport Horse of unknown breeding is actually a pure bred DNA parentage tested Hanoverian by Medoc called Meister ridden by Zara Phillips.
 
I just remembered, there has also been a study done of the percentage of competing horses that individual stallions have produced. I think it was quoted in the Australian Magazine "Horse" It worked with the top listed dressage and show jump stallions and compared their index ratings to the percentage of registered horses competing they produced. It made very interesting reading.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top