Water treadmill

[Birker2020]

The trouble is, its my understanding that you don't necessarily need to know much about muscular/skeletal issues or have a veterinary or physio background to be able to own or operate one of these.

So in that case they might not have realised that they were doing more harm than good. Even if they had of trotted him up between sessions would they have known what they were looking at?

 

[Birker2020]

He has neither KS or pelvic issues, which is presumably why she said swimming would be ok!

I didn't say he did, I was just pointing it out. Excuse me.

 

[milliepops]

The trouble is, its my understanding that you don't necessarily need to know much about muscular/skeletal issues or have a veterinary or physio background to be able to own or operate one of these.

agreed, its the thing that makes me nervous about these things popping up all over the place, there's one semi locally that is attached to a therapy centre with physios etc and I would use them but I'm so anxious about unintended consequences that I'm very very cautious!

likewise things as simple as raised poles, you can easily do more harm than good by overdoing it.

I'm sorry Toby is still sore, AE, hope the chiro vet can help him feel better soon.

 

[LEC]

agreed, its the thing that makes me nervous about these things popping up all over the place, there's one semi locally that is attached to a therapy centre with physios etc and I would use them but I'm so anxious about unintended consequences that I'm very very cautious!

likewise things as simple as raised poles, you can easily do more harm than good by overdoing it.

I'm sorry Toby is still sore, AE, hope the chiro vet can help him feel better soon.

I think they have become the latest 'thing' I am underwhelmed by the benefits because I think they overdevelop the hamstrings and shoulders causing disparities in other parts of the body. I get very nervous watching horses walk in fairly deep water as the optimum on all the research papers I have read is that it should be at the fetlock. I use the beach a fair bit for the same job but I am so cautious about it and when sat on them you can feel how hard they have to work. Like everything with exercise and management, they have their place but it should be carefully managed and just a small part of it.

My physio has a massive issue at the moment as so many people are overdoing raised polework. This is again something I am very careful with and remember a top trainer saying even Badminton horses would only be doing 10-12 minutes of this as its such hard work over raised poles.

 

[Tarragon]

I worked in racing stables in Australia for a year back in the early 1980's. They used to swim nearly all their horses for exercise in a swimming pool with a simple ramp down into it for the horses. Most enjoyed it! If they had to do more than one lap, the person on the lead rope would have to hurriedly drop a plank across the ramp down into the pool so that they could cross the gap - while still keeping the horses swimming - always a dodgy moment. They would only have between 1 and 3 circuits each.

 

[Birker2020]

I worked in racing stables in Australia for a year back in the early 1980's. They used to swim nearly all their horses for exercise in a swimming pool with a simple ramp down into it for the horses. Most enjoyed it! If they had to do more than one lap, the person on the lead rope would have to hurriedly drop a plank across the ramp down into the pool so that they could cross the gap - while still keeping the horses swimming - always a dodgy moment. They would only have between 1 and 3 circuits each.

I used to swim a previous horse in a swim pool for a check ligament injury. We used to take the dog, it was only a fiver a time for her and we swam her too. Happy days.

 

[Xmasha]

Just updating in case anyone is interested. Took Toby once because he was a bit crooked when schooling (though improving) and the person there said he'd really benefit from a week. So I took him for a week and he came back much more crooked than he went and with a very sore back which is still very sore over a week later. He is seeing a vet-osteo tomorrow.

I don't believe that the treadmill injured him but I do believe that he was croooked for a reason and they did not in any way assess that reason, they just put him in a machine that forced him to go straighter and then added loads of resistance to make what was obviously already hard for him much, much harder. And they appear to have had no way of telling that each day they were just aggravating the problem further. No body work, no trot ups in between sessions to assess the impact. I could tell immediately that he was not moving properly when he came home. It wasn't subtle! Yet all I got each day were glowing reports about how much straighter and stronger he looked. I guess he just got used to how he had to move to avoid bumping into things and got on with it but it did him no favours.

With such a good natured horse, he went in willingly and did his best and I feel absolutely terrible that I put him through it and have hurt him.

have you spoken to them and told them what’s happened ?

 

[Red-1]

A horse I worked with went to one. Came back with awful mud fever, of the sort where he had to be taken out of work again as he was actually swollen, lame and needing antibiotics! Never again!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

We don't tend to find mud fever a problem as our horses are only on a couple of times a week and go on the horse walker after for 10 min to dry their legs off. If you just put them back in their box with wet legs day after day then you will get mud fever.

The water is never above knee height and they aren't on for more than 10mins at a time. The person we have working the treadmill has spent a life time around racehorses and whilst he has no qualifications on paper he has a very good eye for what is right and what it wrong. So if something isn't happy or moving we'll they will come off and go under the solarium which is above the wobbleboard (those vibration plate thingies...) then the physio looks at the a few days later.

I do think some sort of qualifications need to be created for the use of these machines as they really don't work for some and unless you know what your looking for, assess before and after and plan an exercise regime around it.

I have found the water treadmill massively benefitted some horses and others it jarred up a bit.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

have you spoken to them and told them what’s happened ?

Yes I let them know. They just said they were surprised by the outcome as he looked good when on it.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

There is one about 45 minutes from me, but it is owned and operated by a vet. So that might make me feel a bit better if it were a reputable vet.

Now, I know if someone tossed me in a water treadmill a week straight when I'd only been here and there before, I'd be sore! I would expect the same for my horse. So for me, it would be important that they know what they're doing and don't overwork the horse/muscles. I could see an overwork injury as a possibility.

When a horse is crooked or has some wonky stuff going in, they can often over compensate in other areas that then leads to soreness too. So a water treadmill may not straighten them out, but could exacerbate the issue.

I think they're a fine tool to use for fitness, with the right operators. They're also not a "cure all" and would have to be used in conjunction with proper body work and soundness monitoring.

 

[Uliy]

Oh no! I’m sorry to hear about your horse, AE ?

in my experience, the water treadmill has been really beneficial - the one near me is operated by a team of excellent vet physios, which I think is really important. From what I’ve seen on Instagram, the operators of different centres have different ideas as to what should be done, so it does seem like a minefield!

 

[Celtic Fringe]

My cob had had his first short session last Wednesday - we are using it as part of a wider programme to get him fitter. The treadmill people said that once a week is what they recommend so his second session is tomorrow. The other horse we took has been many times and the water was not higher than his fetlocks.

 

[Jayzee]

Oh no AE! Hope Toby recovers soon!

Interesting to hear as I have mainly heard very good reports about them, up at work they took one of the 1.40 horse regularly to a water treadmill and he seemed stronger as a result of it being incorporated into his work. I was thinking abut taking my green 6yo ISH but this thread makes me questions that thought process. Especially if the staff as potential places cannot read horses. Maybe I just need to careful research the places nearby.

 

[Birker2020]

So if something isn't happy or moving we'll they will come off and go under the solarium which is above the wobbleboard (those vibration plate thingies...) then the physio looks at the a few days later.

As a digression -we had a osteopath visit our yard and she told a friend that these wobbleboards (vibrating plates) are a total nightmare for some older horses with diagnosed or undiagnosed arthritis.
I have one for humans, a vibrating plate and can't go on it anymore due to my arthritis, it really hurts my joints.

In horses they are meant to increase circulation, improve bone density and give relief to joint and muscle soreness. It must be awful to be shaken when you have arthritis and horses can't really explain how it hurts them.

From a research article : Following on from using vibration plates for a longer period of time - researchers found a statistically significant worsening in front-limb lameness and no statistically significant difference in hind-limb lameness. The front-limb result, however, was skewed by a noticeable worsening of the lameness in one horse. (However short term it appeared to show better results) https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health-archive/whole-body-vibration-treatment-for-lameness

 

[Tiddlypom]

I hope that Toby is soon better, AE. What a worry.

I'm a bit shocked that livery packages are offered which offer a treadmill session a day for a week or more apparently without vet referral. That is, IMHO, rather excessive, especially if the personnel operating the machine are not suitably qualified or experienced.

Less is more, vary the muscle groups being worked and all that.

I forgot to ask my chiro vet what she thinks about water treadmills when she was here, but I do know that she is concerned about the various unregulated equine 'rehab' places popping up everywhere. Some are very good, of course.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I feel like such a fool. It seems obvious in retrospect that this was very bad idea. I don't normally jump on the bandwagon re new treatments so I just don't understand why I didn't take more time/discuss with my vet etc.

It was just that he felt great after the first session and the woman seemed so knowledgeable and enthusiastic. And so sure that a week would make a huge difference. She gave plenty of examples of horses staying for extended periods and doing really well.

I hope he's just got DOMS or something and is not actually injured!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

As a digression -we had a osteopath visit our yard and she told a friend that these wobbleboards (vibrating plates) are a total nightmare for some older horses with diagnosed or undiagnosed arthritis.
I have one for humans, a vibrating plate and can't go on it anymore due to my arthritis, it really hurts my joints.

In horses they are meant to increase circulation, improve bone density and give relief to joint and muscle soreness. It must be awful to be shaken when you have arthritis and horses can't really explain how it hurts them.

From a research article : Following on from using vibration plates for a longer period of time - researchers found a statistically significant worsening in front-limb lameness and no statistically significant difference in hind-limb lameness. The front-limb result, however, was skewed by a noticeable worsening of the lameness in one horse. (However short term it appeared to show better results) https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health-archive/whole-body-vibration-treatment-for-lameness

To be honest I think most horses stand on it because it is under the solarium, I'm not sure how often the actual wobble plate is turned on... I personally think it is a useless, non-essential piece of kit and wouldn't buy one myself nor put any of my equines on one. When it was bought it sat in the yard for the best part of a year before it was actually found a suitable place to be put and used.

I can understand the theory of increased blood flow because anything you do to move a limb or body part will increase it. At the same time I can also see how it would make them sore if their joints are already a bit dodgy.

We have so, so many gadgets in the yard and most of them are great though there are quite a few that were fad buys got used for 6 months then fell by the way side ?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I feel like such a fool. It seems obvious in retrospect that this was very bad idea. I don't normally jump on the bandwagon re new treatments so I just don't understand why I didn't take more time/discuss with my vet etc.

It was just that he felt great after the first session and the woman seemed so knowledgeable and enthusiastic. And so sure that a week would make a huge difference. She gave plenty of examples of horses staying for extended periods and doing really well.

I hope he's just got DOMS or something and is not actually injured!

It's easy to look back in hindsight and see what you could have done differently but what is done is done and I doubt your lad has any long term injuries from a week in water. The most our horses go on is 3x a week for 10-15 min at a time. Do you know how long your lad was going on for each day? It's kind of like anything to do with fitness - you build it up rather than just jumping in at the deep end.

 

[milliepops]

As a digression -we had a osteopath visit our yard and she told a friend that these wobbleboards (vibrating plates) are a total nightmare for some older horses with diagnosed or undiagnosed arthritis.
I have one for humans, a vibrating plate and can't go on it anymore due to my arthritis, it really hurts my joints.

In horses they are meant to increase circulation, improve bone density and give relief to joint and muscle soreness. It must be awful to be shaken when you have arthritis and horses can't really explain how it hurts them.

From a research article : Following on from using vibration plates for a longer period of time - researchers found a statistically significant worsening in front-limb lameness and no statistically significant difference in hind-limb lameness. The front-limb result, however, was skewed by a noticeable worsening of the lameness in one horse. (However short term it appeared to show better results) https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health-archive/whole-body-vibration-treatment-for-lameness

this is alarming!!
I mean I know I'm a massive worry wort when it comes to my horses but surely the first priority with any treatment is "do no harm".

One of OH's clients has bought one of these vibrating plates and is trundling around yards offering treatments. It really concerns me how little evidence there is behind them and how little training people need before they can go out promising all sorts.

 

[milliepops]

I feel like such a fool. It seems obvious in retrospect that this was very bad idea. I don't normally jump on the bandwagon re new treatments so I just don't understand why I didn't take more time/discuss with my vet etc.

It was just that he felt great after the first session and the woman seemed so knowledgeable and enthusiastic. And so sure that a week would make a huge difference. She gave plenty of examples of horses staying for extended periods and doing really well.

I hope he's just got DOMS or something and is not actually injured!

yeah hopefully it is just a bad case of DOMS , i know when I've overdone something the effects can last a long time i did a really lungey-squatty Joe Wicks vid once and then couldn't walk up stairs for days without grimacing, haha.

I know you said they sent you vids of him looking like he was using himself better and I wonder whether it's a case of trying to do too much, too soon in terms of straightening, as well as the change of exercise type. I know I can ride a wonky horse straight fairly quickly because I'm a fairly strong rider in that respect, but they find it so muscularly tiring to be straight when they've got in a wonky habit so you have to go fairly gradually in order to strengthen the weak bits and de-program the things that are in overuse. I guess it's possibly something like that.

Have you got vet today? fingers crossed for you both.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Yes later today. I'm so nervous. Hopefully it will be fine though. I just worry that the crookedness all along has been injury related and the water showed that up. But he has had periods where he has moved really well so hopefully not.

 

[Roxylola]

Good luck, Tom is fabulous.

 

[Xmasha]

Hope it goes well with the vet AE. Seriously.. dont beat yourself up,if anyones at fault its the place he went to. As far as im concerned they owed him a duty of care. He shouldnt have come back worse.

As for those vibrating floors, they just smack of scam to me. I dont think they ever published any hard facts on the supposed benefits did they?

 

[Uliy]

It’s not your fault! We place a lot of trust in those we employ to care for our horses, and it’s on them if the treatment is incorrect.

I hope he gets sorted soon

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I hope the visit goes well.

It is so frustrating when you want to do right by the horse and rely on professionals or those those more experience to help guide you and it backfires. Hindsight is 20/20 though, and you can only move forward.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Well that was very interesting! I'll do a full write up on a different thread as I've derailed this water treadmill one enough - but the bottom line is he's not injured. Just very tight and sore. Tom felt that the main problem with the treadmill was he was working hollow because his head carriage is too high. I was very imoressed by Tom. In retrospect I wish I had taken Max to him instead of Leahurst. But I'd never put anyone back on Max now as he reacted so explosively and dangerously last time he was ridden, so that ship has sailed.