Judy freeman
New User
Any advice on Waterford Gag welcome.
waterford gags
- Thread starter Judy freeman
- Start date
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
That's a bit of a vague question OP 
What do you want help with? Are you considering using one for your horse? and if so what type of gag, as there are a few kinds and they all have different actions.
In general it would be a fairly severe bit that may be useful for a rather strong horse but there may be better options out there if you can let us know a bit more about what you need.
What do you want help with? Are you considering using one for your horse? and if so what type of gag, as there are a few kinds and they all have different actions.
In general it would be a fairly severe bit that may be useful for a rather strong horse but there may be better options out there if you can let us know a bit more about what you need.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I'd advise you to find the nearest bin and place the waterford gag in it.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
Seconded.
It is possible and good practice to have 2 reins on such a bit but lets consider the actual action of such a bit when the contact is taken up. The mouthpiece wraps around the bars and over the tongue, the rein draws the cheek piece down and lowers the poll, the same rein raises the mouthpiece up. The horse is confused, will be forced into a hollow outline and likely in pain.
A bit is only as sharp as the hands on the other end - true, but a gag action on a waterford makes no sense to me at all. It is a contraption seen on showjumpers fairly often, I have seen it used on combination with a hackamore (German).
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I loved my three ring waterford gag for hunting in. Two reains and a back strap and the mare was as light as a feather. I don't think I would use one to make a nice outline or day to day use but for hunting it was amazing.
Shay
Well-Known Member
What is the purpose of your post? I know you will find (and have ) those who oppose an item of kit on principle. But any bit is only as severe as the hands and the experience it is used with. Waterfords do have the potential to be harsk in heavy or less expereicned hands. But they also fill an important gap in the "tool box". What are you asking?
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
It’s a bit I hate , but sometimes it is a question of needs must , for instance with a strong hunter .
Waterfords sometimes are the best thing for horses with tongue problems but I have to say I don’t like them .
Waterfords sometimes are the best thing for horses with tongue problems but I have to say I don’t like them .
J_sarahd
Well-Known Member
The welshie I currently share is jumped in a Universal Waterford. He is extremely strong to a fence, but even so I tend to stick to having the reins on the snaffle ring. His owner has tried dozens of bits with him as, like I said, he is extremely strong and used to be very strong in his flatwork (with effort and schooling he now does flatwork in a snaffle). And he prefers the Waterford gag out of all the bits he’s had (Pelhams, Wilkies, Swales, Kimblewicks). If I was sticking with him, I’d work towards jumping him in a softer bit, but for now he is comfortable in the Waterford so we carry on using it
SpringArising
Well-Known Member
A Waterford is categorically the only bit I currently know of that I would never use under any circumstance. Horrible, pinchy bits that are far too common.
Casey76
Well-Known Member
Waterford’s are the bête noir of “English†bits. They enforce compliance through pain. The individual links of the bit grabs and pinches the tongue, and any side-to-side action (direct reining) grinds the abrasive surface of the bit over the delicate bars on the mouth.
Some Waterford’s are worse then others with the design of the mouthpiece, imho, the NS one is one of the worst on the market.
Some Waterford’s are worse then others with the design of the mouthpiece, imho, the NS one is one of the worst on the market.
Annagain
Well-Known Member
I have one for my exceptionally strong ISH. He only wears it for exciting things such as fun rides and beach rides (about 7 or 8 times a year!). It wouldn't be my first choice of bit but having tried so many over an 18 month period it was the one he chose! It was the only one he was instantly happy with and he's remained happy with. He's always been very ready to tell me when something's not right but settled with the waterford straight away. He has a slightly deformed tongue and can't cope with anything jointed (single or double) but seems to like the flexibility of the waterford. His other bit, for flat work and ordinary hacking, is a mullen mouth hanging cheek snaffle so I tried a mullen mouth gag but couldn't hold him in it. With the waterford I don't ever have to take a pull. I just sit up and say 'woah' and he stops. That might be because it's vile but if I don't actually have to use it, it's not causing him any pain. I have it with two reins and ride off the snaffle rein 95% of the time, only picking up the bottom rein when we go a bit faster. I genuinely feel it's better for both of us than me hanging onto his mouth all the time. I use bit rubbers with it as it did pinch without them.
They're not for everyone but they do have a place in the right hands on the right horse.
They're not for everyone but they do have a place in the right hands on the right horse.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
They work because they are painful, which is why you don't have to pull very hard on the reins. I doubt very much that he "likes" it, but as you say it may be better than you hanging out of his face. I'm not surprised it pinches him. There are many, many better strategies than weaponising the bridle, but these all take time and sometimes it is not possible to go back and retrain the very most basic lessons on how to respond to the rein aids.
Hormonal Filly
Well-Known Member
What bit would you recomend for hunting then?
I have a super strong welsh i'm going hunting on soon. A waterford snaffle isn't enough and his neue schule snaffle he wears daily is like being bitless when i'm in fields with horses having a canter. On his own I can stop him in a headcollar and he goes nicely on the flat, put him with another horse and its instantly a race.
Everyone has recommended a waterford gag with 2 reins to try next... if not I'm thinking cheltenham gag?
I have a super strong welsh i'm going hunting on soon. A waterford snaffle isn't enough and his neue schule snaffle he wears daily is like being bitless when i'm in fields with horses having a canter. On his own I can stop him in a headcollar and he goes nicely on the flat, put him with another horse and its instantly a race.
Everyone has recommended a waterford gag with 2 reins to try next... if not I'm thinking cheltenham gag?
Annagain
Well-Known Member
It's not that I don't have to pull hard, I don't have to pull at all! I totally agree that it's not a bit I would want to use normally - or wanted to use on him but I had to try it as he was dangerous. He complained A LOT about other bits, including some very strong ones - in fact the stronger the bit the more he complained but he's never complained in the waterford so there is definitely something about it that makes him more comfortable. He's not the sort to give in, the more you give him to fight against the more he fights but he never has with it.
As I said, he only wears it for very exciting situations where he used to lose his head a bit so schooling him out of it wasn't an option as it is impossible to replicate and when it did happen there'd be lots of other horses around and it was dangerous (tanking off and jumping a 5 bar gate with a pensioner friend of mine with no warning as he saw some horses in front of him). I would never use it as an every day bit, he probably wears it 8 times a year max and his other bit is as mild as they come.
Casey76
Well-Known Member
What does he do? Chin to chest or lift his head? That would be the determining factor on what kind of bit to try...
Though it is in fact a training issue, not a bitting issue; otherwise you’re going to end up with a square stock slow twist with a correction port before you know it.
Hormonal Filly
Well-Known Member
Defiantly it is a training issue, as I said to a friend if i rode him regularly with others he'd soon chill out but I ride on my own most of the time so when I ride with others (and even hunt!) its the most amazing thing ever so its going to take a long time to train into him. For now I need control and to be safe, and not as embarrassing. Yesterday a friend was wetting herself as her big gelding steadily cantered across the field and mine hammered across with me having no control.
He has a really soft mouth but has a huge neck. Even the physio 2 weeks ago said hes got a very muscle thick neck.
He tends to push his head right out and down, kind of gritting against the bit and go then lean on it. He also puts his head up when hes trying to go. When hes going and with another I literally have 0 control he completely leans and runs through it even in the waterford snaffle.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
What noseband do you use?
All the schooling in the world wouldn't turn my old mare into a polite hunter or XC horse
Though repetition and practice did make her a jolly but well mannered hack in company I added a kineton noseband and had good influence over pace and direction with very little pressure.
FWIW while it wouldn't be the bit I would reach for first, I would use a waterford under some circumstances. The horse with the kineton would not tolerate a pelham or gag so something without the leverage and gag action was needed.
ETA just seen your edit. With him pulling out and down, a running gag with 2 reins might be a good option, they can be very sharp but I prefer the ones with rope cheeks which release as soon as you let the pressure off. You would be riding off the snaffle rein almost all the time, and would need to be proficient with a second rein
and a normal mouthpiece might well be plenty, rather than a waterford.
Hormonal Filly
Well-Known Member
What noseband do you use?
All the schooling in the world wouldn't turn my old mare into a polite hunter or XC horse
I added a kineton noseband and had good influence over pace and direction with very little pressure.
FWIW while it wouldn't be the bit I would reach for first, I would use a waterford under some circumstances. The horse with the kineton would not tolerate a pelham or gag so something without the leverage and gag action was needed.
ETA just seen your edit. With him pulling out and down, a running gag with 2 reins might be a good option, they can be very sharp but I prefer the ones with rope cheeks which release as soon as you let the pressure off. You would be riding off the snaffle rein almost all the time, and would need to be proficient with a second rein
Hes in a normal flash noseband. I use a neue schule snaffle for unaffliated dressage, jumping and hes so chilled I could use a head collar! Put him in a field with more than 1 horse, wow hes like a jet propelled nutter.
A friend done the flash up tight yesterday (I don't like them that tight, doesn't look comfortable) and it made 0 difference. Is that a cheltenham gag? I did think of this too.. someone has one for sale with a french link mouth piece as a cheltenham gag but worried he'll lean on that.
Hes a typical strong 15.2 welshy.. and i'm a small 5'2 rider and don't think he'll ever be well mannered hunting, he knows his power when he wants it and can move! Hes such a show off. ha
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Is this a cob by any chance? Ah, sorry, just saw your answer: he's a cob. Yes, I'd try a kineton, and possibly a gag. Can't remember, have you tried a kimblewick?
Hormonal Filly
Well-Known Member
Mine or original poster? Mines a cob, a welshy.. and a typical welshy, hes a decent 15.2 full of power and strength (and he isn't fat surprisingly lol!)
Cortez
Tough but Fair
The OP's not been back, so it was a question for them. Wonder where they've gone to?
Schollym
Well-Known Member
My mare came with two bridles one for schooling ( a snaffle) and a Waterford gag for hacking. The first time I took her out hacking with a friend I asked her to trot and had a contact on the reins, she just trotted up and down on the spot. We abandoned this bit when we got home!
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Unlikely to lean on a running gag. Basically you can't, because if you use the gag rein, the mouthpiece is raised in the mouth.
It's a Cheltenham if it has eggbutt rings, balding if it has loose rings, there is also the Nelson which has full cheeks.
I'd try one maybe from a bit bank, with his normal mouthpiece or as close as possible rather than upping the strength of the mouthpiece at the same time as adding gag action.
Keith_Beef
Novice equestrian, accomplished equichetrian
So Ernest Walton, a Waterford man, who was the first man to split the atom, says:
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
I had a gag, well two , trainer wants to keep one but I got ris of the other as it was useless for my mare, the rings just raised up , so I might as well of just used a snaffle.
Hormonal Filly
Well-Known Member
Tried out my welsh in the Waterford gag today. I was able to have a controlled canter next to another horse in a open field and could stop him with my pinky finger.
So much nicer for him than me yanking the hell out of his mouth in a snaffle and him still going for it.
Definitely going to use one for fast work, a bit is only as harsh as the riders hands and I was riding very softly with my hands releasing every time he steadied up so can’t see how it’s any harsher than him in his neue schule snaffle and me pulling the hell out of his mouth. Lol
So much nicer for him than me yanking the hell out of his mouth in a snaffle and him still going for it.
Definitely going to use one for fast work, a bit is only as harsh as the riders hands and I was riding very softly with my hands releasing every time he steadied up so can’t see how it’s any harsher than him in his neue schule snaffle and me pulling the hell out of his mouth. Lol
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Aimee, sounds fabulously welsh, I used a single joint continental gag on frank for lots if things, I took him cubbing in a Waterford snaffle once, I think we both had a rubbish morning. Mechanically it shouldn’t really have been the best fit but worked for us well with a curb strap and I was always on the buckle end a fair bit. He also had a good ho, steady and careful installed which was very helpful for hunting
Auslander
Well-Known Member
That's what they're supposed to do, surely?
Carrottom
Well-Known Member
I bought a neue schule universal with a waterford mouthpiece, on the advice of my show jumping trainer, for my ex-racer. He used to rake after a fence and try to take off. I only used it for a couple of months but it did help cure him of this. I later found out that when he was in training it sometimes took the rider a circuit of the circular gallop (about 2.5 furlongs) to pull up, he would come back to a canter then plunge his head down and take off again.
only_me
Well-Known Member
Well I quite like the Waterford snaffle, when used in the correct setting. I’ve used it a few times on young horses who dive/lean on the bit and just need to stop sitting on it. The mouthpiece stops them nicely and I only need to use it a couple of times at home doing basic schooling so they learn not to grab hold and lean. It’s not used as a method to stop them but to not allow them to lean. They then get put back into their French link and we carry on as normal.
I’m not keen on the idea of a Waterford gag though, I can’t think of a situation where I would need it on any young horse.
I’m not keen on the idea of a Waterford gag though, I can’t think of a situation where I would need it on any young horse.