Weight loss, getting desperate

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montysmum1

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Thank you for reading this, I am feeling rather desperate!

I’ve not had my horse for very long (5 months), and in this time we have had a few legs problems, but they are coming on nicely, and I thought we were making good progress, until my vet commented that she thought he should have put on more weight by now, and was generally looking rather dull (he was extremely underweight when I bought him).

On her advice, and that of a nutritionist, I changed his feed (gradually, over the course of a week) onto a much more calorie intense, high soya diet, with additional Soya oil and feed balancer. He also has ad lib good quality haylage when stabled and is turned out over night on very good grass for an average of 14hrs. But he is still precariously balanced between thin and thinner…

He has had his teeth rasped a few months ago, and is regularly wormed. He has had a full blood test, with the results showing EVERYTHING well within the normal ranges, so we ran a glucose absorption test to see if perhaps he has a problem with absorbing the nutrients, but this has come back perfectly normal too.

Vet thinks now something much more sinister is going on internally, and without expensive scans, which the insurance won’t support as it is ‘pre-existing’, and the vet says will probably result in the same outcome, and we should pts!! :(

Does anyone have any helpful suggestions or ideas? Please
 
I would try the insurance route, as no one can say definitively that the weight loss is through a pre-existing condition.

But, just to run through things with you:

How many feeds a day are you giving?

Try out in the day, and in at night.

Are you rugging against the poorer weather?

What age is the horse?
 
How is his poo? ie (frequency/consistency)

I would turn out 24/7 offer hay am and pm. If he eats it grazing probably not great.

If you are happy with his progress and you know him best atm then change your vet.

Building up condition takes time.
 
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His poo is normal (by comparison to my other horses) neither too soft or hard, nor too much or too little. Unfortunately 24/7 isnt possible where I am, but the 14 hrs is on very good grass, and he's happy to munch his haylage and always lies down in the day. Trouble is I dont feel we are making progress, he puts a bit on, then loses it again. He's not even in work. I definitely will get a 2nd opinion before
 
Try this - twice now this has happened to me after I'd had horses out on loan.

Bomb worm him.

Worm weekly for three weeks with an Ivomec and Praziquontal based wormer.

My vet in UK did this to a horse in the 70's when the Ivomec wormer was first available. At this time the worming was done directly into the vein by injection. Thankfully we now have the Ivomec wormers we can feed orally.

My vet here in NZ did this for my TB after he had been holiday'd out for three weeks while I was in the UK - grazing was a bit rough but obviously rougher than I had thought. He was really poor and six months later had not regained his weight. At this point my vet told me to worm him weekly for three weeks. The change with a couple of months was astounding.

Vet explained that sometimes if the horse is exposed to a very wormy pasture they pic up so many that the parasites encyst themselves and wait for space to feed in the gut. - The first worming removes those currently in the gut leaving it free for the encysted ones - they all have a break out and re inhabit the gut - the second dose gets them - the third gets any that are left behind.

Since I've used this system for every new horse that I've owned.
 
can you post some pics of him?

do you feed hay or haylage as you have said both?

how big/old is he?

breed?

what work if any is he doing?

is he turned out in company or alone?

how many feeds/how much of what in each one daily?

how often and with what do you worm?

have you done a worm count?

if it was something sinister normally (but not always) something abnormal would show up on the bloods
 
sorry just re-read first post re haylage

haylage is not ideal for horses as it is too rich-many of them cannot digest any nutrients from it as it passes through the gut too quickly, especially when fed in large quantities. i would gradually change over to a good quality hay as my starting point
 
Tnavas - I had never heard of that before, but i am willing to try! Thank you

Jools123 - he's on haylage as he can't have hay dry, and won't eat it wet! He's 17.2 TB, 7yrs old, not currently in any work, he's turned out in a friendly group of 7 other geldings. He was last wormed with Equimax, had equest previously, and double dose of another for tapeworm before that. No worm count yet (will be sending one off on Monday) though vet thinks worm burden unlikely as would have shown something in blood results? He's fed:
1 round scoop alfa a
1 (250g) cup top spec comprehensive balancer
1/4 round scoop cooked barley
3/4 round scoop top spec conditioning cubes
1 round scoop sugarbeet (once soaked)
1 mug Soya oil
This is 3 times a day.
 
Hi there, I've got your pm, only just got in but give me an hour and I will reply, do not bomb worm him as described, there Is a far safer way to get the same result for thinner horses. Just jumping in shower then will reply properly x
 
Tnavas said:
There is NOTHING UNSAFE ABOUT THE BOMB DRENCHING! IT WORKS!
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Yes there is when the horse is considerably underweight and trying to save all its frigging calories to keep weight on!!, far better to use a lower dose wormer, like pancur 5 day, and repeat 2 weeks later, furthermore if the horse does have ulcers somewhere, say for instance hind gut where gastroguard does not work, or scarring from previous worm damage, ripping the hell out of the stomach and gut lining is going to compromise the horse further, and potentially do more damage... it is not a responsible thing to recommend in this case!!!
 
Try Yeasac, our warmblood was dreadful to keep weight on, after a few months on this I am putting her on a diet. Apparently it works on the hind gut.

From keeping weight on my oldie for years I can recommend more barley and more sugar. I actually add raw molasses to my old boys feeds.

Obviously its not recommended where lami is a risk and not something I would have done as anything other than a last resort, but it works.

If you are considering PTS anyway, you dont have a lot to loose.

As long as grass and haylage is providing fibre I would go for calories.
 
I was told by our local seller (who had done the courses) NOT to use strong wormers where there is a possibility of high worm burden as it can cause colice or death - pretty much as Queenbee said.

Also remember if you are getting a worm count done that tapeworm and I think a few others dont show up on it. Get the test done then ring a helpline and ask for advice based on test results and condition of horse.

Sorry no feeding advice except for adlib good quality forage at all times along with whichever other feeds you decide to go for - lots of meals - queenbee would certainly be the one to ask

ps queenbee hope you are ok x
 
Modern wormers do NOT rip the lining out of the gut! - that is what the parasites do - these wormers just kill the parasites. To improve weight the horse needs all the parasites out ASAP!

The old fashioned wormers do more to upset the horse while they work. I remember as a child when you wormed your horse it needed a week off work to recover from the effect of the wormer itself on the system.

Panacur does not touch Bots or Tapeworms - Tapeworms being one of the parasites that is now causing much trouble since the advent of the mectin based wormers.

The vets that have both advised this form of worming are equine specialists of great reknown

I've used this system since the mid 70's and had no problems with any horse that has received it. At one time when I used one of the older wormers to treat my school horses I had the majority on the ground groaning! Quite a frightening experience to see 32 horses and ponies all in various stages of being affected by the wormer. Vet advised that this was a common occurence with the typee of wormer - one of the older type of wormers.

Meesha - they are not STRONG wormers they are EFFECTIVE wormers.
 
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It's a very slow thing to get some weight onto a poor horse, at least so that you can see an improvement so don't give up hope yet.

If he's not putting weight on with what you're already feeding then I would be inclined to change it or at least parts of it.

I'd change from Top Spec to Blue Chip for a start, I've never had anything do well on Top Spec TBH. BC is very good for getting condition on and although the bag is expensive, you don't feed that much so doesn't work out too expensive then. http://www.bluechipfeed.com/2010/01/11/product-original/
I'd change or do away with the chaff completely; if I ever feed a chaff it's Graze On by Northern Crop Driers; it's nothing but grass, no molasses/oil added to it; it's very clean and horses seem to love it plus do very well on it. Some horses do well on alfalfa product and some don't, you'll only know by trial and error.
I would try soaked grass nuts; again, Northern Crop Driers do some. They can be phenomenal in increasing condition and you can feed the Blue Chip with them with no problems at all. http://www.northerncropdriers.co.uk/products.

If I was in your shoes (have been many times, I like getting a horse back into condition) I would go back to basics completely and would feed
micronized barley
soaked grass pellets or sugar beet
brewers yeast
micronized linseed
D & H Build n Glow.
with as much hay/haylage as he can eat plus as much turnout of course with good company which always helps.

Would love to see pictures if you can.
 
Tnavas said:
Modern wormers do NOT rip the lining out of the gut! - that is what the parasites do - these wormers just kill the parasites. To improve weight the horse needs all the parasites out ASAP!

The old fashioned wormers do more to upset the horse while they work. I remember as a child when you wormed your horse it needed a week off work to recover from the effect of the wormer itself on the system.

Panacur does not touch Bots or Tapeworms - Tapeworms being one of the parasites that is now causing much trouble since the advent of the mectin based wormers.

The vets that have both advised this form of worming are equine specialists of great reknown

I've used this system since the mid 70's and had no problems with any horse that has received it. At one time when I used one of the older wormers to treat my school horses I had the majority on the ground groaning! Quite a frightening experience to see 32 horses and ponies all in various stages of being affected by the wormer. Vet advised that this was a common occurence with the typee of wormer - one of the older type of wormers.

Meesha - they are not STRONG wormers they are EFFECTIVE wormers.
Click to expand...

good for you, I will go with the evidence of research and veterinary advice, you do as you please:rolleyes: Im sure anyone with a google search tool will be able to make up their own mind... just because its been done that way for yrs, doesnt mean it should be. I assume that you are arguing that one dose wormers wont adversly affect ulcers either??:rolleyes: I have to say that you are assuming this is a problem due to worm burden... and I am arguing that a delicate gut which can cause malabsorption, should not be unbalanced with wormers when the op has already wormed. OP, blood test for tapeworms, bots are not a problem at this time of yr... I believe we had first frost a loooong time ago, and send off for a worm count (if you want to be overly cautious do two at two different labs) bomb worm at your own peril and at the risk of your horse IMO. I am not arguing that it isnt effective in some cases, but we are not talking about a healthy horse with a heavy worm burden. Far more chance you will further damage the horse with this method in his current state.
 
Furthermore, the type of worms that would most likely cause this type of weight loss, would be small redworm, Equest and Pancur are the most effective forms of treatment for redworm at all stages, Pancur being as effective but less harsh as it its given over a 5 day period in a lower dose. FACT
 
Thank you all for your replies and suggestions, sorry i've been away from the computer for a bit!

My vet has agreed that equest is a suitable wormer to use as he is due this week anyway (along with the rest of the yard, who are using the same).

I am going to send off a sample for a worm count on Monday, just to be safe, before we worm. We have already blood tested for tapeworm and the result was clear. Vet has advised against over-worming, as the blood tests don't indicate a need to, and we are concerned his stomach/intestines may not cope - she has sternly warned me about inducing colic.

I treated with Gastroguard when I first had him as he was quite grumpy and kicky with his hard feed, so i did suspect ulcers, but this made no difference, and Vet advised unlikely to be ulcers, but just hungry.

I have little faith in Blue chip i'm afraid, as I have used it before with no real results, I am new to Topspec, and am swiftly forming the same opinion! Interestingly, i did have him on Pink Powder before, but was swayed into topspec by friends, but i actually think he did look marginally better on PP, so am changing back to it.

I have had him on Barley, but am just changing him over to Oats, and on my Vets advice am boiling them first so his guts don't have to work too hard.

From some research I have been doing today, I am starting to wonder if it is protein he is struggling to absorb/process, as it seems to be on higher protein diets that he does worse, but i could be wrong - i am clutching at straws!

Just as an addition - he is in no work, and is well rugged at all times - not so much that he is ever sweating, but always at least one 'weight level/thickness' up from anyother TB types. I am very concious that he has no spare flesh to keep him warm.
 
Op if still try slippery elm, I wouldn't rule out malabsorption but it could be handgut ulcers, gastroguard would not touch these, chat to Oberon she will be able to pm you loads of info, trial egusin... Effective in treating hindgut ulcers, the grouchy kicky attitude would point to ulcers being a possibility, I can't post link as am on phone but perhaps someone can post the link on how to diagnose ulcers through pressure points. Ur horse could still easily have ulcers. Equest and pancur are equally effective... Please consider using pancur 5 day instead of a one off dose, if it's malabsorption or ulcersyou don't want to be upsetting the gut anymore than you can. I can forward you tons of literature and studied that will show you how bad this is in these scenarios... Vets who specialise in researching both tell of the dangers... I can only tell you what I've learnt through going through similar.
 
Best feed for condition without being full of sugar and soya, which is the equine equivalent of a mac donalds, is thunderbrooks basemix, bran and their growing oats. Tis superfood.

If you ring them the lady who devised it is a nutritionist and will no doubt be able to advise you.

http://www.thunderbrook.co.uk/

I agree with Queenbee on the worming front - quick way to kill all the good bacteria in the gut the horse needs, encourage ulcers and colic.
 
I've just replied to your post in NL too Queenbee :)
Thank you.
I will have to speak to yard owner about using panacur instead of equest, as yard rule is that all horses are wormed with the same thing at the same time, before fields are rotated, i may not have the option not to use Equest and still turn him out
 
montysmum1 said:
I've just replied to your post in NL too Queenbee :)
Thank you.
I will have to speak to yard owner about using panacur instead of equest, as yard rule is that all horses are wormed with the same thing at the same time, before fields are rotated, i may not have the option not to use Equest and still turn him out
Click to expand...
I would hope that under the circumstances the YO would make an exception this once, well worth having a chat to explain that you are worried and want to use a mild wormer this time and perhaps offering to start it a couple of days early so that he is nearly through it when the others are wormed?
 
Also, just re read your post, you say he is not as good on high protein diet... This isn't typical of malabsorption, that would be far more indicative of ulcers IMO, ulcers, are aggravated by bute, some antibiotics, wormers, high sugar and high concentrate hard feeds, if he does better on low calorie feed I would urge you to try egusin or look into hindgut ulcers, can't be diagnosed with normal scoping but I think that there is a way of disgnosing, oberon can give you a link to where you can buy egusin... But I'd definitely look into it especially with some of the stuff you are saying
 
Alma, unfortunately we don't buy our own :rolleyes:

I will certainly speak to her on Monday and see if she is open to making an exception under the circumstances!

Queenbee I am very intruiged by the hindgut ulcers, as I have never heard of these before. I will look into this more and discuss with Vet too - i have just found Oberon's post on here.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but the change in his behavious in the few hours following the glucose feed (for the 2nd blood sample) was quite significant. It was like i had the horse you'd expect on all the feed he is getting - he went from his usual dope-on-a-rope self, to a raging bull! He seems to get on very well with sugar, to the point that I am now adding molasses to his feed (vet agrees it's worth a try), only been a couple of days so far though, but it doesn't seem to be doing immediate harm.

Also should mention, the grumpy behaviour when eating has reduced over time, not in line with weight loss/gain, can now muck out / change rugs / groom whilst he is eating with no real effect.
 
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