Weird confidence issue :(

[supsup]

I think the "help or harm" concept is a very human-centric view of what constitutes a horse's quality of life. It takes the horse's long term health as the prime indicator of the horse's quality of life. But I think that is only a part of the whole picture. Horses live in the moment and have no capacity to project into the future. They don't care if they are likely to die in 20 years or tomorrow. They care whether or not they are experiencing pain/discomfort/pleasure today. Of course we have an ethical responsibility not to (intentionally) do harm or cause pain. But I honestly don't think horses care about long life. From the horse's point of view a nice hack on a long rein may well be much more fun (and contribute to quality of life) than a schooling session with an extremely skilful rider who nonetheless demands obedience, full concentration and physically demanding work.

In a way, the "help or harm" view puts demands on the horse that we don't even put on ourselves. We often choose the more comfortable option for ourselves (just think of diet, exercise) over the option that we know will be beneficial to our long term health. But would our quality of life truly improve if we stuck 100% to the diet and exercise plan? Probably not. There's always a grey area.

Lastly, horses also have the capacity to tune out what they consider to be "background noise". Yes, they can feel that fly land on their skin, but yes, they can also completely ignore constant leg nagging. They can filter information that is irrelevant to them. So some of the signals we give unintentionally because we're not perfect riders simply get filtered out. We don't have to be perfect riders to establish effective communication with our horses. They can adapt and learn to interpret the signals we give. And when we change/improve our aids or balance, they are flexible enough to adapt again.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I got into 'classical' a few years ago on my old horse and went through the same thing-paralysis by analysis! and although classical people talk a lot about being for the horse, they are rarely for the people that ride them IME.

A bit of an expensive fix maybe but get yourself to Portugal on a riding holiday-I could even recommend some places to go-they will cure you of overthinking in about 30s and you'll have a ball while doing it.

 

[PollyP99]

Just to say go out for a blast. Find a nice big field forget about your position, that your horse is on the bit, or on the right leg and then let rip. You'll come back with a huge smile on your face and then realise why you ride, TOO ENJOY IT!! As said some times a certain amount of ignorance is bliss.

Ha, just did this, had a choice of school or fast hack, due to this thread I ditched schooling for today and went out for a whizz around. Mare behaved impeccably so learnt not to nap not to chose her way around (we zig zagged a lot) to hack alone at pace and not get strong, so we gained some valuable learnings and I'll end up with a sensible all round horse as I'm giving her many experiences. Granted she'll not win a dressage comp, now or ever probably but she will be an all round good ride and fun to boot.

Edit to add, ^^^ this to me is way more important and I feel the weight of responsibility at times to make sure she is a sane all rounder to ensure that should anything happen to me she wouldn't end up being moved around because she's 'difficult' in some way.

 

[paddy555]

I certainly agree riding should be fun otherwise what's the point? However, my horse, if not ridden correctly, absolutely cannot cope. He falls on his forehand, he runs away with me, he gets so strong we just cannot stop and that is no fun at all.

I appreciate a lot of horses can and will go happily, steadily, in all paces and jump easily on the forehand without consequence even when rider is not completely correct, but what when you don't have one of these steady neddies?
What options are there for those of us in these categories? We can't just let loose, give the reins away and go because It simply is a nightmare!

this thread is so sad. I hope you can get some fun with your horse.
At the end of the day there is only 1 person you have to impress. Your horse. Are you impressing him favourably? is he enjoying your time together. Does he have good reason to criticise you? If so correct it if not then why criticise yourself?

What do you do with him for fun either on his back or off it? Does he really care if you do everything perfectly as long as he understands what you want. Horses cope quite adequately when riders are not completely correct.
From your last paragraph above why isn't he listening to you? I understood classical training was all about lightness so hasn't that got through to him? You don't have to hold the reins on the buckle and point him at a gallop there is lots of fun he could have learning to listen to you but at a slow pace where he could be relaxed and enjoy himself.
You mention so much responsibility which I would imagine is that you ride well, give good aids etc. What if you focus the responsibility on simply giving the horse a good time for a while and see if it makes you feel differently?

 

[Cortez]

While a lot of PEOPLE are having fun careening around on their horses, I wonder how many horses actually are?

I agree that quite a few so-called "classical" instructors succeed in paralysing their students with guilt at not being perfect, but the general principle of riding a horse in balance, on the aids is to help the horse to move with as little disadvantage as possible under the rider. Hooleying it around a field is hardly helping the horse to find balance, softness or confidence.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

While a lot of PEOPLE are having fun careening around on their horses, I wonder how many horses actually are?

I agree that quite a few so-called "classical" instructors succeed in paralysing their students with guilt at not being perfect, but the general principle of riding a horse in balance, on the aids is to help the horse to move with as little disadvantage as possible under the rider. .

absolutely-but you can school on hacks and you can get out of walk occasionally. I still (try) and ride/train with all I've learned and put a lot of time in on the ground too, with in hand work and bodywork to help but I'm not going back to that sort of that inability to enjoy my horse-you don't know how long you've got them for :/

 

[Zipzop]

While a lot of PEOPLE are having fun careening around on their horses, I wonder how many horses actually are?

I agree that quite a few so-called "classical" instructors succeed in paralysing their students with guilt at not being perfect, but the general principle of riding a horse in balance, on the aids is to help the horse to move with as little disadvantage as possible under the rider. Hooleying it around a field is hardly helping the horse to find balance, softness or confidence.

Totally agree! My horse Is one of those horses that if I did do this he would have an absolute meltdown and not cope. It wouldn't be fun for either of us and would take him a good few days to get over it!

Paddy555 - he seems to enjoy our sessions, we spend lots of time doing slow work, lateral movements etc I listen to him and help him out as much as I'm able to. This is the kind of stuff that suits him.

He is very built on the forehand and Was broken in and taken XC far too young. (Before I bought him) due to this his 'go to' response under saddle has always been, tense, anxious and to run away if something was hard or he didn't understand.

This is something that has lessened over time but will never be completely gone. He struggles massively with lightening the forehand due to his build.

Maybe it is unfair to expect a horse not built for this type of work to do it especially when mentally and emotionally he does struggle?

 

[Red-1]

This thread has made me sad. I am sad that you are not enjoying your horse. I am sad that a trainer has presented information in a way that has resulted in you feeling as you do.

I would love it if I could join with the others saying go have a blast, slop on a loose rein, but I hear what you are saying that your horse can't cope. I do disagree that he can't learn to though. I presume when turned out he does not meltdown as you are not there to hold his hand? I presume that he can have a canter in the field, and recover his sensibilities?

To me, teaching a horse to "be lighter on his forehand" when he is still not able to hold onto his sensibilities when ridden on a loose rein is just the wrong way round. I presume teaching him to be light like this involves leg, seat, hand, weight? And yet he is not mentally at peace enough to walk/ halt on a loose rein. There would seem to be no foundation to build the rest on, and I am guessing that however "light" you get him he will never really swing, relax, stretch, reach, or any of the other thongs that require a quiet mind.

I do not believe a quiet mind will come from such schooling. I would seek different help, and believe in the person who will allow the horse to MAKE mistakes, rather than prevent them, so the horse can work stuff out for himself.

Edited to add - not that I think riding in balance and lightening the forehand is not important, but that the horse has to learn to stay first. As in stay standing when told, without needing a tight hold, to stay in walk when told without being held or kicked on etc. Only when the horse can keep himself going/steady/standing/turning/whatever, only then move on to using aids in a more refined way.

Once they have learned to "stay" at whatever they are doing, then, however highly trained they are, you can give them a loose rein and they will be able to maintain and be relaxed without constant hand holding.

 

[milliepops]

I do not believe a quiet mind will come from such schooling. I would seek different help, and believe in the person who will allow the horse to MAKE mistakes, rather than prevent them, so the horse can work stuff out for himself.

I thought that was an excellent post, Red-1, and particularly like this point

Also I think this is linked to the poster who said they felt a duty to make sure their horses would be able to cope if she needed to move them on for any reason. There's some sense in that. Few of us can guarantee a home for life, if some absolutely catastrophic personal disaster should befall us.

 

[Zipzop]

This thread has made me sad. I am sad that you are not enjoying your horse. I am sad that a trainer has presented information in a way that has resulted in you feeling as you do.

I would love it if I could join with the others saying go have a blast, slop on a loose rein, but I hear what you are saying that your horse can't cope. I do disagree that he can't learn to though. I presume when turned out he does not meltdown as you are not there to hold his hand? I presume that he can have a canter in the field, and recover his sensibilities?

To me, teaching a horse to "be lighter on his forehand" when he is still not able to hold onto his sensibilities when ridden on a loose rein is just the wrong way round. I presume teaching him to be light like this involves leg, seat, hand, weight? And yet he is not mentally at peace enough to walk/ halt on a loose rein. There would seem to be no foundation to build the rest on, and I am guessing that however "light" you get him he will never really swing, relax, stretch, reach, or any of the other thongs that require a quiet mind.

I do not believe a quiet mind will come from such schooling. I would seek different help, and believe in the person who will allow the horse to MAKE mistakes, rather than prevent them, so the horse can work stuff out for himself.

Edited to add - not that I think riding in balance and lightening the forehand is not important, but that the horse has to learn to stay first. As in stay standing when told, without needing a tight hold, to stay in walk when told without being held or kicked on etc. Only when the horse can keep himself going/steady/standing/turning/whatever, only then move on to using aids in a more refined way.

Once they have learned to "stay" at whatever they are doing, then, however highly trained they are, you can give them a loose rein and they will be able to maintain and be relaxed without constant hand holding.

Hi Red-1

Thanks for your message. What kind of work do you think would be good to quiet his mind? Are you thinking natural horsemanship, groundwork type stuff? Or a type of ridden work? Your thoughts are much appreciated

 

[Tobiano]

well done Zipzop for caring so much about your horse and your riding.

I am of the school of thought of 'you need a different instructor'. I KNOW i have many, many faults and my RI has to point them out regularly. But, under her instruction both I and my horse have improved our way of going over the last 18 months and i always, always enjoy my lessons. And then the next day I also enjoy a pleasure ride, which I know my horse loves too from his body language and general behaviour. I am very lucky to have a horse who can cope with my level of skill - perhaps that is the answer - it is not that you should not ride if you cannot be perfect but perhaps there are some combinations that work better than others.

 

[Red-1]

Hi Red-1

Thanks for your message. What kind of work do you think would be good to quiet his mind? Are you thinking natural horsemanship, groundwork type stuff? Or a type of ridden work? Your thoughts are much appreciated

Hi, I don't think you can generalise on "horsemanship, groundwork type stuff", just as you cannot generalise on classical horsemanship, western riding, dressage riders etc. To me it is not about what discipline you follow, it is a mindset.

Horsemanship can be throughout all disciplines, or it can be bandied about as a term meaning using rope halters, whips of an intermediate length (although they are rarely referred to as whips in that context) and people who do not seem to ride much.

I have typed a few replies with examples of exercises, but TBH I really think it would be more helpful to have someone to help you. One short example, although there would be a whole lot of prep work first, but this example to show about allowing the mistakes.... I would walk on a loose rein. Once I have set the walk then I would not keep him in this walk, I would leave him with it, trust that he will keep on doing what he has been set. I would know with a new horse that he will not yet be able to keep on walking without guidance, but still I would give him the chance to do so. If the horse does not stay in this exercise, for example with your horse he trots off, then I would correct this, but not back to the walk, I would do a direct trans to halt. Then reset the walk. Repeat.

If the horse is as you describe he may well become frustrated, so then this would be worked on too. Possibly that if he is energised that he NEEDS to move then great, I love moving, lets move like THIS, and "this" would be tight circles, serpentines, and I mean small enough that he is moving a little laterally, so he will walk, then offer the opportunity to walk on a loose rein again.

Eventually he will realise that if he is in walk, on a loose rein, then you will be quiet. All is well. He will learn to stay.

I would do some ground work first though, with the aim that he learns to pay attention, move off a small signal, and stand and stay, for example.

They are just small examples, snapshots in the training process that if taken out of context could be met with "yes but". It is more about the mindset of setting the horse up to succeed without the rider's constant intervention, to value peace when doing the right thing.

I think the reason a lot of "Western" type trainers are good at this is because they are training horses for a job where they horse is part of the job, so they want to set the horse and ride it, but not be micro managing. The same when I was riding Police horses.

I guess my own pleasure comes not from what I can achieve with a horse, but how much peace we can achieve in doing whatever task that is. Not that different mindsets are wrong at all, but your current path does not seem to be giving you happiness. Funnily enough in my quest for my goal I do seem to be becoming more correct in posture, in aids..... but it is not about how correct I can be, it is about how much peace we can have between us while we do it.

With mine, if he was so uptight that he could not walk on a loose rein without meltdown then I would not do further "things" until he had learned this place of peace.

In answer to your question, you are obviously someone who likes to train hard and do the right thing. I would change my goal to chase the feel of what we were doing from light, to soft. Soft is very different, and requires that relaxation, stretch, reach, peace.

 

[Sgathach]

I do think it depends on your horse too.
I have only just started learning more about classical riding, relaxation, etc. I am a happy hacker.
I had someone try to fix my horse with groundwork and I had other lessons to help her release...but after a while she seemed so bored, shut off. We went for a no pressure/no interference hack and she loved it, she knows this so she had a lot of confidence from just having fun.I think flexing and bending and stretching can, while beneficial, be very hard on an untrained horse, and to some mentally learning new things is hard too, so to go back, do something easy, relax in something they know and then go back and attempt a new exercise or a next step helps them keep in balance mentally too.
That will depend on the horse, as one poster has said their horse would not cope with a hack and a hoolie round a field, so I guess it is about knowing your horse and doing the best you can with the skills you have and learn and take care of your partner both physically AND mentally.

 

[FfionWinnie]

The horse doesn't care how perfect you ride it. As long as you aren't socking it in the chops etc, he's not bothered if he's on the forehand in the slightest.

Yes we all want to be the best we can be and I do agree to a point that ignorance is bliss, however you are over thinking this and it's ruining your enjoyment of riding so what is the point of that?

I never had proper lessons until I came back to horses aged 32 and mine are all cobs. I am loving the feeling of achieving a well schooled horse and I'm achieving it by myself, making progress I never understood until now. I think you need to readjust your goals to include enjoyment. For you and the horse!

 

[paddy555]

this is such an interesting thread with some lovely replies
OP, I just wonder if you had a different horse, say more of a spanish type off the forehand horse, would you be writing this?
It comes across that you are a highly qualified classical instructor clearly wanting to work horses in that manner and your horse may not simply be the right build and temperament for that.
It just doesn't work for some of mine who really do prefer the hacking/going round the field idea but for one in particular, part Spanish, he craves the classical way.

I wonder if you need to readjust your goals to take into account your sort of horse?

So many good ideas on calming him but have you considered TTeam work. This is based on the Tellington Jones principles. The ground work exercises, both in hand, in hand without a headcollar just a schooling whip, ridden and then ridden in a neck ring sound as if they may help him. He can make his mistakes but in a safe environment. It is very simple to do but very effective.

 

[Zipzop]

this is such an interesting thread with some lovely replies
OP, I just wonder if you had a different horse, say more of a spanish type off the forehand horse, would you be writing this?
It comes across that you are a highly qualified classical instructor clearly wanting to work horses in that manner and your horse may not simply be the right build and temperament for that.
It just doesn't work for some of mine who really do prefer the hacking/going round the field idea but for one in particular, part Spanish, he craves the classical way.

I wonder if you need to readjust your goals to take into account your sort of horse?

So many good ideas on calming him but have you considered TTeam work. This is based on the Tellington Jones principles. The ground work exercises, both in hand, in hand without a headcollar just a schooling whip, ridden and then ridden in a neck ring sound as if they may help him. He can make his mistakes but in a safe environment. It is very simple to do but very effective.

I agree there are many wonderful ideas and insights here. So helpful and kind of everyone to take the time to reply.
I guess the problem is you buy a horse for a job/reason and when your aims change, ie now to classical, the original horse may not be the best choice for whatever reason, ( be it mental, emotional or physical).
Of course I would never part with him, after having him so long he is part of the family and the 'horsey' love of my life.
Although I have majorly compromised on what I would like to do in my riding life, ie compete, jump etc it just doesn't suit him so I don't mind and will just work to what he can cope with.
Perhaps coming at things from a different angle like the TT stuff may give me more of a way into his mind and help everything else? I guess it's difficult when he needs correct schooling but physically finds it difficult and then the other option, hacking, he finds mentally difficult - and very often leaves him anxious and upset.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed. This thread really has given me so much mental relief and things to try