Weird napping problems

[[59668]]

So this post is me thinking aloud and wanting some ideas and thoughts to throw about.
I've had my 5yo (rising 6) TB for 5 weeks now.
God he's awesome to ride. I'm so excited.
But we have this napping issue.
It seems to be a mix of "I cant" and "I wont". He's never "won" and once he moves forward he is relaxed and happy, be it out hacking alone, in company (yes he naps in company!) or heading up to the arena.
I will not resort to carrying a whip. The most I do is redirect him from his spin and backwards by keeping on asking forwards, not escalating it, and massively rewarding the decision to go forward. You can't fight him. Or pressure him. He goes up if you do.
Napping has veered wildly from just stopping to one full on tantrum where I have got off for my safety, led him out the gate and got back on from the gate.
He seems to use spooky things as a "reason" to nap but on the next hack at the same point it'll be an "excuse" to nap.
I've bought a Kelly Marks giddy up rope to try.
I guess I'm looking for reassurance that this won't be forever and we will gradually work through this! Or any heartening stories?! Of course I realise it's early days but this is a problem I wasn't anticipating from trying him so extensively!

 

[Peglo]

My cousins wee mare was terrible when we first got her. She would rear up and spin when we tried to leave. Once we got so far she got better. I knew who rode her before we took her on and she was very heavy handed with her and when she tried to spin she would haul that rein and force her to spin tiny circles with a (too) heavy rider on board. Not at all saying your guy had any harsh treatment, just that this mare had rough handling at times but with perseverance and gaining trust she became a fab hack. She marched out very happily after she stopped napping. She is a marish mare too. And chestnut ?
I think your guy will come at lovely ?

 

[[59668]]

My cousins wee mare was terrible when we first got her. She would rear up and spin when we tried to leave. Once we got so far she got better. I knew who rode her before we took her on and she was very heavy handed with her and when she tried to spin she would haul that rein and force her to spin tiny circles with a (too) heavy rider on board. Not at all saying your guy had any harsh treatment, just that this mare had rough handling at times but with perseverance and gaining trust she became a fab hack. She marched out very happily after she stopped napping. She is a marish mare too. And chestnut ?
I think your guy will come at lovely ?

This is reassuring thank you! I'm hoping it is mostly a "getting to know you" issue but it has completely blindsided me! I got no hint of this being in there when I tried him!

 

[Deltofe2493]

Echoing Peglo, do you know the history of the horse?

I bought my tb last year and she was 6. She had never hacked out until I started to and she was horrible wouldn’t go forward spinning bunny hopping etc.

I later found out she had never hacked before I did, so it was a combination of it all being new to her / testing me out. Now she’s amazing and will happily plod along behind.

consistency and a firm yet gentle hand will be your best bet ?

 

[[59668]]

Echoing Peglo, do you know the history of the horse?

I bought my tb last year and she was 6. She had never hacked out until I started to and she was horrible wouldn’t go forward spinning bunny hopping etc.

I later found out she had never hacked before I did, so it was a combination of it all being new to her / testing me out. Now she’s amazing and will happily plod along behind.

consistency and a firm yet gentle hand will be your best bet ?

He's come over from Ireland a year or so ago and has been passed around various sports horse dealers until he ended with a local eventer who bought him to bring on and sell. She is who I got him from.
I think most of his hacking experience was with her and he was only with her for 2 months, and that was all off road and mostly in company I think. So you're right....possibly this is very new to him.

 

[stangs]

I think it's an issue of a) him still figuring things out in his new home, b) you needing more time to figure out what approach works best for him because he's still quite new, and c) him being the age he is. So I very much doubt it'll be a long term thing.

I wonder, would it help if you didn't ask him to go forwards? As in, he says no, and you just sit there and give him some time to think, no leg, no voice, nothing (just make sure he doesn't turn around), and then ask again. May help him clear his mind.

 

[[59668]]

I think it's an issue of a) him still figuring things out in his new home, b) you needing more time to figure out what approach works best for him because he's still quite new, and c) him being the age he is. So I very much doubt it'll be a long term thing.

I wonder, would it help if you didn't ask him to go forwards? As in, he says no, and you just sit there and give him some time to think, no leg, no voice, nothing (just make sure he doesn't turn around), and then ask again. May help him clear his mind.

This is so interesting you say this I was thinking of trying this! I watched a Michael Peace video and he said less is more with some horses.

 

[AmyMay]

I wonder, would it help if you didn't ask him to go forwards? As in, he says no, and you just sit there and give him some time to think, no leg, no voice, nothing (just make sure he doesn't turn around), and then ask again. May help him clear his mind.

Absolutely this with bells on.

 

[JackFrost]

I have one the same age. I don't get 'I can't' or 'I won't', but I do get 'I wonder what happens if....?.' I feel that some testing of boundaries can be almost a schooling issue, the horse finding out what the rider response is to a new manoeuvre it thinks it has just invented. The answer with mine is getting the horse very clear about what the aids mean, so there doesn't need to be any 'discussion'.

 

[[59668]]

I have one the same age. I don't get 'I can't' or 'I won't', but I do get 'I wonder what happens if....?.' I feel that some testing of boundaries can be almost a schooling issue, the horse finding out what the rider response is to a new manoeuvre it thinks it has just invented. The answer with mine is getting the horse very clear about what the aids mean, so there doesn't need to be any 'discussion'.

I see this a bit with mine. He is naturally quite backwards thinking and lazy. I'm working a lot in the arena on getting him in front of my leg without nagging and controlling his shoulders which I am hoping will help out hacking and can be worked on there too to a certain extent. But I'm aware I need to "create a tool before i can use a tool" and that needs to happen in the arena.

 

[Dynamo]

OP, he'll grow out of it with careful persistence from you. It's very common in horses of this age. They are biddable as just-backed youngsters and then at 5-6 become like human teenagers who don't want to do anything that their parents want them to. You're doing exactly the right thing by not escalating it. Keeping calm is absolutely key. They are all different, but I find just sitting there and doing nothing for a few seconds is very effective; stand, breathe, neck scratch, leg on and press, and then next time be a bit more alert in that spot and ride forward. It's horrible when they react to a more forceful approach by going up and doing the pirouette thing, so it's much better to de-fuse the situation by not letting the horse make you react. Another useful tool if they are having a spin and won't go forward, or if they have a meltdown even though you are keeping very calm, is to let them turn around fully, so opposite to the direction you were going, and then rein-back for a good few strides before you turn the right way again and then immediately trot on. Obviously, that only helps if the horse is submissive to the rein-back and not likely to go up and over.

 

[scats]

You could have described Millie. She will still do it occasionally out on the roads. I find I have to just sit for a few moments and take all pressure off to let her think. Then I sort of wiggle my body rather than use my leg (or she stands up) and 9 times out of 10 she will carry on. If she doesn’t, I let her have a few more moments, then wiggle again.
I probably look ridiculous but it’s a technique I’ve used successfully and have taken her from a napping, rearing idiot (both alone and in company) to a horse who happily hacks alone now on the roads.

 

[[59668]]

OP, he'll grow out of it with careful persistence from you. It's very common in horses of this age. They are biddable as just-backed youngsters and then at 5-6 become like human teenagers who don't want to do anything that their parents want them to. You're doing exactly the right thing by not escalating it. Keeping calm is absolutely key. They are all different, but I find just sitting there and doing nothing for a few seconds is very effective; stand, breathe, neck scratch, leg on and press, and then next time be a bit more alert in that spot and ride forward. It's horrible when they react to a more forceful approach by going up and doing the pirouette thing, so it's much better to de-fuse the situation by not letting the horse make you react. Another useful tool if they are having a spin and won't go forward, or if they have a meltdown even though you are keeping very calm, is to let them turn around fully, so opposite to the direction you were going, and then rein-back for a good few strides before you turn the right way again and then immediately trot on. Obviously, that only helps if the horse is submissive to the rein-back and not likely to go up and over.

Thank you. You know how sometimes you just need to be told you're doing the right thing?!
I'm not sure our rein back is that solid yet tbh....I have a vibe it would encourage up at the moment

 

[[59668]]

You could have described Millie. She will still do it occasionally out on the roads. I find I have to just sit for a few moments and take all pressure off to let her think. Then I sort of wiggle my body rather than use my leg (or she stands up) and 9 times out of 10 she will carry on. If she doesn’t, I let her have a few more moments, then wiggle again.
I probably look ridiculous but it’s a technique I’ve used successfully and have taken her from a napping, rearing idiot (both alone and in company) to a horse who happily hacks alone now on the roads.

Same thing with the use of my leg! Hence why I have bought a kelly marks giddy up rope....I found flicking the reins more effective than my leg!

 

[Trouper]

Step into his hooves for a moment. If you were asked to go on a walk, which might have dangers, would you be happy relying entirely on someone you had only met 5 weeks ago?

It will come when he is truly settled and trusts you - just keep being firm and gentle. I am also a great fan of letting him stand and think about it. TBs are so intelligent - he will work things out for himself.

 

[JackFrost]

I'm not sure our rein back is that solid yet tbh....I have a vibe it would encourage up at the moment

Rein back for mine is dodgy, quickly becomes the horse's go-to for evasion, so I find best not to use it.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Step into his hooves for a moment. If you were asked to go on a walk, which might have dangers, would you be happy relying entirely on someone you had only met 5 weeks ago?

It will come when he is truly settled and trusts you - just keep being firm and gentle. I am also a great fan of letting him stand and think about it. TBs are so intelligent - he will work things out for himself.

Agree with this his 5 and his been in a strange place for 5 weeks his going to be a bit worried, I have a nappy Arab he was never hacked as a young horse and I sometimes let him just stand and after a bit he normally will go, I can't battle with him as he gets really upset and in a state and it's not enjoyable for either of us like that.

 

[[59668]]

Agree with this his 5 and his been in a strange place for 5 weeks his going to be a bit worried, I have a nappy Arab he was never hacked as a young horse and I sometimes let him just stand and after a bit he normally will go, I can't battle with him as he gets really upset and in a state and it's not enjoyable for either of us like that.

Yeah I want to avoid battles at all costs. Its just not how I do things.

 

[Birker2020]

So this post is me thinking aloud and wanting some ideas and thoughts to throw about.
I've had my 5yo (rising 6) TB for 5 weeks now.
God he's awesome to ride. I'm so excited.
But we have this napping issue.
It seems to be a mix of "I cant" and "I wont". He's never "won" and once he moves forward he is relaxed and happy, be it out hacking alone, in company (yes he naps in company!) or heading up to the arena.
I will not resort to carrying a whip. The most I do is redirect him from his spin and backwards by keeping on asking forwards, not escalating it, and massively rewarding the decision to go forward. You can't fight him. Or pressure him. He goes up if you do.
Napping has veered wildly from just stopping to one full on tantrum where I have got off for my safety, led him out the gate and got back on from the gate.
He seems to use spooky things as a "reason" to nap but on the next hack at the same point it'll be an "excuse" to nap.
I've bought a Kelly Marks giddy up rope to try.
I guess I'm looking for reassurance that this won't be forever and we will gradually work through this! Or any heartening stories?! Of course I realise it's early days but this is a problem I wasn't anticipating from trying him so extensively!

Whilst I understand not all bad behaviour can be attributed to pain, the majority is.

So on that basis, I would check your saddle fit and get a decent saddle fitter out. If he's changed shape since you've had him, it probably hurts him.

 

[[59668]]

Whilst I understand not all bad behaviour can be attributed to pain, the majority is.

So on that basis, I would check your saddle fit and get a decent saddle fitter out. If he's changed shape since you've had him, it probably hurts him.

Genuinely not that but thanks

 

[Birker2020]

Genuinely not that but thanks

Okay fair enough. Only saying from experience it was with mine with escalating behaviour over the week I rode him after a saddle fitter had checked it.

 

[Mule]

Patience worked with mine. I wouldn't rule out carrying a whip for steering, that helps with sideways napping and spinning. I would take him a little further each day I brought him out to hack. I built up his confidence that way. Also, walking out in hand and long reining helps. Pairing something enjoyable like grazing with hacking helps too.

When mine used to get stuck I would find it helpful to relax for a couple of minutes and then he would go forward again.

Mine was very herd bound, which caused the nappiness. If it's a fear reaction on the part of the horse or if it rears when pushed, I would go with steady, patient work rather than pushing them through it with increasing pressure.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Yeah I want to avoid battles at all costs. Its just not how I do things.

I am the same I don't like having to use force and it doesn't work in the long term especially with a sensitive horse, I have got off on occasions just to keep the peace and I think it then makes the experience a lot more positive, its bloody annoying though especially when they seem to nap at nothing but I think patients and time really goes a long way.

 

[Dynamo]

Ooh Scats, I am going to try the body wiggle thing! The more tools the better. If anyone sees me wiggling about, please blame Scats.

 

[Deltofe2493]

also.. do you do circuit treks or turn backs? depending on what your routine is, he may associate a particular spot with turning back.

the sit still and patience method also worked for me on some occasions

 

[scats]

Ooh Scats, I am going to try the body wiggle thing! The more tools the better. If anyone sees me wiggling about, please blame Scats.

It really works for Millie. I’m not even sure how I discovered it, but it was probably from frustration that I couldn’t put my leg on without a meltdown so I tried to encourage her by sort of shoving her with my body and it turned into a wiggle. It’s not failed me yet, though I get some strange looks!

 

[Kaylum]

What's he like with long reining. Going forward going backwards. Doing ground work.

 

[BSL2]

If safe sit it out. Most frustrating, but you will get there. My mum had a cob, he came to us as a "perfect hack". We had all the usual checks done, as new to us. Teeth , back,tack etc. Luckily for us our town was fairly quiet back then, because he decided to stop outside the local pub. My mum sat there for 2 hours. He wouldn't budge, if legged on he'd just swing his bum out or back up . After 2 hours of mum sitting there chatting to people shopping, going about their day, boyo decided he'd walk on. She ended up doing 100s of miles, distance riding and I took him out with the blood hounds for years. Best horse ever, just very clever. Rip. Toast ❤

 

[clinkerbuilt]

If safe sit it out. Most frustrating, but you will get there. My mum had a cob, he came to us as a "perfect hack". We had all the usual checks done, as new to us. Teeth , back,tack etc. Luckily for us our town was fairly quiet back then, because he decided to stop outside the local pub. My mum sat there for 2 hours. He wouldn't budge, if legged on he'd just swing his bum out or back up . After 2 hours of mum sitting there chatting to people shopping, going about their day, boyo decided he'd walk on. She ended up doing 100s of miles, distance riding and I took him out with the blood hounds for years. Best horse ever, just very clever. Rip. Toast ❤

I bet one of the features of his perfect hacking in the previous home was standing quietly outside the pub while refreshments occurred

 

[Shilasdair]

I'm never sure why people think beating their horse with a rope is weirdly kinder than learning how to use a schooling whip properly (buy one with the big leather flappy end). (I am sure I saw a video advising slapping the 'giddy up rope' against waterproofs to make a noise to spook your horse forward - bad, bad idea! )

The advantage of a whip being that it doesn't affect the contact you have with the horse's mouth, and you are reinforcing and refining the leg aid. And from what you say, your issue is that he ducks behind the leg in the arena too, as an evasion. Try to sharpen him to the leg aids with lots of acute transitions (halt to trot, walk to canter), maybe lateral work.

Incidentally for rearing as an evasion, turn him in small circles bending his neck to one way (they can't go up with a bent neck).
But everything should be built on him going 'forwards' from the leg.