Weird one - horse vanishes under saddle on right side!

[ycbm]

My TB used to do this and I could ride him forwards out of it. I offered the vet finance to investigate whatever he wanted but he said he couldn't find anything to spend my money on. The horse was PTS months later with severe neck arthritis.

I'm sorry I can't give you a more up beat story, but my money would be on your horse having a hidden issue and I would xray his neck for starters.
.

 

[FlyingCircus]

Could be PSSM, but in my experience (& I've had too much) that tends to present as 'riding through treacle' or back end stiffness. You can get a hitchy gate with some of the type 2 myopathies - most of them improve off grass (or at least limited), vitamin E and more protein. What breeding?

She's a welsh D, out 24/7 on poor grazing. It's definitely something we're looking into already, as she is averse to the cold and results in rock solid bum muscles. She needs to be led around for a few minutes before getting on in the more recent past, otherwise she is very tense and upset. If led around first to warm up a bit first, she is still quite a tense pony naturally initially but is oodles better.

 

[saddlesore]

Given the information in your last post I’d want her tested as a first port of call

 

[FlyingCircus]

Given the information in your last post I’d want her tested as a first port of call

We're going through the full MOT again ? Saddle today, then teeth and vet, chiro and when vet is there for teeth they will be taking sample required for pssm test. I understand there is also a hair test I can do too.

 

[ycbm]

She's a welsh D, out 24/7 on poor grazing. It's definitely something we're looking into already, as she is averse to the cold and results in rock solid bum muscles. She needs to be led around for a few minutes before getting on in the more recent past, otherwise she is very tense and upset. If led around first to warm up a bit first, she is still quite a tense pony naturally initially but is oodles better.

This is a giant PSSM red flag.

I'd be testing with a big dose of vitamin E to start.

 

[SEL]

We're going through the full MOT again ? Saddle today, then teeth and vet, chiro and when vet is there for teeth they will be taking sample required for pssm test. I understand there is also a hair test I can do too.

There is and type 1 is cheap, although I think welshies tend to show up as type 2. Have a chat with your vet but you'll get a better indication of muscle problems if you can exercise before the vet comes and then let them take bloods for ck & AST levels. Not always conclusive but if they go sky high like my mare then you know there's an issue

 

[I'm Dun]

We're going through the full MOT again ? Saddle today, then teeth and vet, chiro and when vet is there for teeth they will be taking sample required for pssm test. I understand there is also a hair test I can do too.

Sadly PSSM in welshies is pretty much always type 2. Chucking a load of vitamin e at her wont tell you if its that or not. Management is difficult and requires a lot more than vitamin e, and sadly often doesnt work anyway.

Type 1 is a hair test and costs £30ish. I'd do it anyway to rule it out. The hard muscles do point to type 1. Type 2 is also a hair test but over £200 and its not something most vets will recommend. There is a lot of research going on at the moment, but until its done, then the tests arent backed up by peer reviewed research.

Saying that in your shoes I would 100% test. It wont rule out another as yet unknown myopathy, but it may well flag a known one, and treatment differs between them. Some do respond well, and at least it would give you answers. Theres lots of facebook group and youtube videos etc, but I always send friends these as they seem to be the best. Theres a FB group of the same name and a website.

thats the type 2 video, they have a type 1 as well as well as some others. Until I watched the videos it would never have occured to me that mine had it, it was one of those lightbulb moments where everything just added up.

 

[ycbm]

Sadly PSSM in welshies is pretty much always type 2. Chucking a load of vitamin e at her wont tell you if its that or not.

Well all I know is I had one that was very symptomatic, tested negative for type one, responded very well to vitamin E, and had an ataxic episode when I failed to give enough the first winter which quickly resolved when the dose was increased. So as it's relatively cheap and readily available, I'd personally always test vitamin E first in any horse that looked like it had a muscle myopathy.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Vit E and keeping her warm sorted out my PSSM1 -ve IDx mare. She has some sort of PSSM (vet agrees), but I didn't go down any further diagnostic routes as the management changes worked and are still working.

Vit E is worth a try as a first step. Mine was far happier within 48 hours. Still effective, along with careful rugging, 4 years on.

Pre vit E she used to randomly snatch a hind leg up, along with the very tight bum muscles and hate of the cold. She came to me age 10 with wonky musculature behind, but she sailed through a 5 stage vetting by a top referral practice...

 

[scats]

My chronic PSD mare gives me this feeling when she isn’t quite right. I think I’d get a lameness work up done.

 

[I'm Dun]

Giving vitamin e to a horse without testing doesnt tell you anything. Some horses are vitamin e deficient, some just do better on a decent dose of vitamin e. Its not the treatment for type 2 pssm, or certainly not the only treatment. A negative response to vitamin e doesnt rule out PSSM, nor does a positive response confirm it.

 

[ycbm]

Giving vitamin e to a horse without testing doesnt tell you anything.

It does if they respond well to it!

Some horses are vitamin e deficient, some just do better on a decent dose of vitamin e. Its not the treatment for type 2 pssm, or certainly not the only treatment. A negative response to vitamin e doesnt rule out PSSM, nor does a positive response confirm it.

If they respond well to it you can then try tweaking other things or the horse may be fine and need no further investigations.

There isn't enough research about muscle myopathy at the moment but the one thing I'm pretty sure of is that there is no one size fits all answer.

And if a hefty dose of vitamin E returns a horse to normal, then frankly I couldn't care less what the underlying genes say should or shouldn't be the treatment.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Giving vitamin e to a horse without testing doesnt tell you anything.

Eh?

If the horse improves dramatically just with vit E supplementation, like mine did, it tells you that the horse needs extra vit E!

At the time that I was going through this with my mare in 2017 there was only the £30 PSSM1 hair test available. She was -ve to that. Vet suggested a muscle biopsy, but a. it's invasive b. there can be false -ves if the wrong area is biopsied c. it costs.

We agreed that as the management was working to miss the muscle biopsy. Vet happy with that.

There is something vet wise going on with the OP's horse, maybe several somethings.

 

[sbloom]

Where does asymmetry end and lameness begin? I think we're a long way from answering that. Rotation of the ribcage to the right, dropping saddle and rider to the right, is super common with both, and the only unusual thing is that you've caught it earlier. It's interesting how many horses, when you take a photo from both sides, look higher behind from the offside than the near, it's this ribcage rotation which also pulls the shoulder down and sometimes forwards. What is certain is that many asymmetries, left undealt with, will become lamenesses. I would search out a professional, not necessarily a vet, who is used to dealing with biomechanics and "NQR" isssues.

Too large rear gussets are such a common problem, they should only really be needed on horses with high withers and low, flat backs, if they're on a horse with a normal wither or a gently curved back then you need to question if it's the right saddle/tree, clearly your fitter will be addressing this, just general information

 

[FlyingCircus]

Where does asymmetry end and lameness begin? I think we're a long way from answering that. Rotation of the ribcage to the right, dropping saddle and rider to the right, is super common with both, and the only unusual thing is that you've caught it earlier. It's interesting how many horses, when you take a photo from both sides, look higher behind from the offside than the near, it's this ribcage rotation which also pulls the shoulder down and sometimes forwards. What is certain is that many asymmetries, left undealt with, will become lamenesses. I would search out a professional, not necessarily a vet, who is used to dealing with biomechanics and "NQR" isssues.

Too large rear gussets are such a common problem, they should only really be needed on horses with high withers and low, flat backs, if they're on a horse with a normal wither or a gently curved back then you need to question if it's the right saddle/tree, clearly your fitter will be addressing this, just general information

It was a very interesting discussion with this saddle fitter, who I have only had twice. First time 2 weeks ago she said due to girthing combo being something she wasn't happy with, she'd rather come back to properly evaluate the saddle after I had found/borrowed/bought a new girth (that she was willing to buy if it didn't work ..!). She came back yesterday and wasn't happy with the deep panels at the back of my saddle (chunky monkey) and showed me how to feel the pressure they would be causing. Then left another saddle with me (KES working hunter) to try which has far skinnier panels! I mentioned that the channel was narrower than I would usually look for...as I seem to have been brainwashed into thinking wide channel = good. But she explained that a wide channel may just be putting the weight of the rider over the head of the ribs.

Lots of explanations and hands on demonstration of shoulder movement etc.

So yeah, quite impressed so far! I even had to remind her she needed to let me know what I owe her at the end, haha.

 

[sbloom]

Channel width should match spinal width, you can press in either side of the spine with your fingers, make an arch by drawing them in until you hit the firmness of the spine, and then slide your other hand under the arch giving you a "x number of fingers" width, or measure it. The channel should match that, too wide can give instability and may limit panel area. I do see some 2 fingers channels around still (and occasionally even narrower!) and some horses are too wide for a 3 fingers channel (obviously these are approximate as hand size varies!) but at 5 fingers there are very few horses that truly need a channel that wide.

 

[Zuzan]

Where does asymmetry end and lameness begin? I think we're a long way from answering that. Rotation of the ribcage to the right, dropping saddle and rider to the right, is super common with both, and the only unusual thing is that you've caught it earlier. It's interesting how many horses, when you take a photo from both sides, look higher behind from the offside than the near, it's this ribcage rotation which also pulls the shoulder down and sometimes forwards. What is certain is that many asymmetries, left undealt with, will become lamenesses. I would search out a professional, not necessarily a vet, who is used to dealing with biomechanics and "NQR" isssues.

Too large rear gussets are such a common problem, they should only really be needed on horses with high withers and low, flat backs, if they're on a horse with a normal wither or a gently curved back then you need to question if it's the right saddle/tree, clearly your fitter will be addressing this, just general information

This thing about asymmetry is really important and not very well addressed by many instructors / riders / trainers I feel as there is much we can do to strengthen weaker sides.. allowing asymmetry to persist can then lead to real lamness .. as weaker sides are more prone to strains / muscles pulls etc

Interesting comment re rear gusset .. can I quizz you as when you say flat back do you mean longitudinally flat between the withers and quarters or laterally flat where there is a very well sprung rib cage? Just my horse has high long withers that meet a short back that is flat laterally as she also has very well sprung ribs and wide spinal process and our GP saddle does not have huge rear gussets.. With apologies to OP for going off track.

 

[sbloom]

This thing about asymmetry is really important and not very well addressed by many instructors / riders / trainers I feel as there is much we can do to strengthen weaker sides.. allowing asymmetry to persist can then lead to real lamness .. as weaker sides are more prone to strains / muscles pulls etc

Interesting comment re rear gusset .. can I quizz you as when you say flat back do you mean longitudinally flat between the withers and quarters or laterally flat where there is a very well sprung rib cage? Just my horse has high long withers that meet a short back that is flat laterally as she also has very well sprung ribs and wide spinal process and our GP saddle does not have huge rear gussets.. With apologies to OP for going off track.

Gillian Higgins says the "vast majority" of injuries come from repetitive strain, and asymmetry means asymmetrical loading, weak and strong can be relative and it's often more useful to look at rotations or other ways of categorising.

More so flat front to back, flat side to side would usually reduce the depth of the gussets. I fit almost solely wider flatter horses and have no gussets over 2.5", most are 2" or a little under. I think anything over 3" is highly unlikely to be truly needed if the tree is the correct shape.

 

[Zuzan]

More so flat front to back, flat side to side would usually reduce the depth of the gussets. I fit almost solely wider flatter horses and have no gussets over 2.5", most are 2" or a little under. I think anything over 3" is highly unlikely to be truly needed if the tree is the correct shape.

That makes perfect sense and yes our panels are flatter as laterally flatter backed thank-you.