Weird one - horse vanishes under saddle on right side!

[FlyingCircus]

To explain my title a little better, my 6yr old is learning to relax, carry herself and be soft and supple. Sometimes we have amazing rides where she feels like a cloud. Other times, and intermittently in some sessions, she seems to drop me under the back of the saddle on the right hand side. It is bizarre. Almost as if there is a void under my bum cheek! That then encourages me to fall into it and saddle goes right with it. I can avoid this by sitting left, but I'd love to know why/how she does this!?

She did it to my instructor the other day. Void under right but cheek, bananaing hard left with a very blocked neck. No difference in striding of either of the hinds, but she was more stuffy behind than when she is going nicely and flowing.

I'm at a bit of a loss. I don't think it is lameness as when she is relaxing, she moves lovely and has big expressive paces...but when she is doing whatever this is, she just goes all tense and blocks you. She can be ridden out of it with some tact, but I'd love to understand why it is happening in the first place so I can try to get ahead of it happening.

Any ideas!?

 

[poiuytrewq]

Intriguing post

 

[FlyingCircus]

Intriguing post

? fat fingers posted too early

 

[scruffyponies]

I suspect you need an expert in biomechanics or similar, but if it were me I would be tempted to try a dramatically different style of saddle, or even no saddle at all, to see if it still happens.
Can you get hold of a military saddle, or perhaps a western one?

 

[FlyingCircus]

I suspect you need an expert in biomechanics or similar, but if it were me I would be tempted to try a dramatically different style of saddle, or even no saddle at all, to see if it still happens.
Can you get hold of a military saddle, or perhaps a western one?

It's a really weird one, because she is totally fine in the same saddle through the rest of the session/other sessions.

Funnily enough I have a saddle fitting later, but where it is intermittent (probably only once every 4 or so rides, for only a few minutes), I think it will be hard to tell if a new saddle "solves" the problem....I'm up for trying anything though! She is obviously uncomfortable about something in those moments so would love to work out what it is

 

[coblets]

What about trying a bareback pad or a treeless saddle? It might help you feel a bit better what she’s doing before the void appears.

 

[milliepops]

I've had that feeling of nothing under a seatbone, I had it with my ex racer when he would sort of drop his back on one side occasionally and not fully engage that hindleg. nothing much to see but it was unmistakeable as a feel. I could ride him through it to really insist he stayed up and even under the saddle but I'm afraid to say it was a lameness at root cause, so I would definitely make a plan to get the horse checked over to be on the safe side. the fact that yours becomes crooked in the neck makes me think there is something physical going on.

 

[ThreeWBs]

I had and to some extent, still have this issue with my young WB.

When he is balanced, using his hocks and taking the bit, he's like a feather. However, if we lose balance and he become hollow, he disconnects from his hind, especially his right hind where he has a weaker stifle. It throws me straight to the right side of the saddle and it feels awful.

Given your horse is also young, I'd hazard a guess that it is a weakness. Raised poles and transitions helped my horse enormously.

 

[Shilasdair]

Lame behind.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm afraid that lameness behind would be my call on this.

I'd go down the ridden loss of performance vet check route.

Have you got it on video?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Had this exact experience. Horse was indeed lame behind.

 

[SEL]

oh dear I'm another who understands exactly what you mean but it was due to lameness. Took a fair old while to track it down to her left hind suspensory

 

[FlyingCircus]

Have had 2 lameness work ups by 2 different practices and nada. She hasn't been scanned as can't justify that when she is moving lovely majority of time! And if i scan there is chance I'd find things that aren't the cause of anything. Also, vets have no idea where to start scanning as she is quite sound on trot up on a surface and on the hard.

So ya, an odd one!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Have had 2 lameness work ups by 2 different practices and nada. She hasn't been scanned as can't justify that when she is moving lovely majority of time! And if i scan there is chance I'd find things that aren't the cause of anything.

So ya, an odd one!

I cannot say that I've scanned and found things that aren't the cause of anything. I rather scan because it is so much better to find things early, or if the scan is clean, then I sleep a bit better at night ?

It's not normal, and a vast majority if not all responses of those who have experienced the same have said that it was hind end lameness. That would give me enough of a kick to go a bit further with it.

It sounds a bit as if you want to be told this isn't a problem, and crack on. However, no one can really say that. It might be an early sign of something you can prevent from worsening/developing, but I understand that we all have different lines when it comes to how far we'll look into something like this.

 

[FlyingCircus]

To add, I'm getting her tested for pssm for other reasons. Could this be another potential symptom?

 

[FlyingCircus]

I cannot say that I've scanned and found things that aren't the cause of anything. I rather scan because it is so much better to find things early, or if the scan is clean, then I sleep a bit better at night ?

It's not normal, and a vast majority if not all responses of those who have experienced the same have said that it was hind end lameness. That would give me enough of a kick to go a bit further with it.

It sounds a bit as if you want to be told this isn't a problem, and crack on. However, no one can really say that. It might be an early sign of something you can prevent from worsening/developing, but I understand that we all have different lines when it comes to how far we'll look into something like this.

As is evidenced by the fact I've paid for a professional opinion RE lameness twice, I don't think that's the case.

I'm trusting them there, and looking at other training etc related issues.

I'm the biggest advocate for my horse and won't just keep working her through something if it is going to cause her any pain. I'm just trying to understand other people's experiences, whilst explaining what I've found/been told by professionals to date.

Eta: ive also been around long enough to see everyone call out lameness at the first hint of a problem, even when it turns out to be something else. So I do take advice on here with a bit of a pinch of salt and consideration, as no one has seen the horse in question. But I do have experienced vets, instructors, chiros, physios etc that have seen and had hands on her that I discuss these comments with, rather than jump to conclusions from a thread on the Internet.

 

[Lady Jane]

I think I would scan but work ups do find things which are not actually 'the problem'. You need a vet who is an expert in lameness and can make that judgement

 

[CanteringCarrot]

As is evidenced by the fact I've paid for a professional opinion RE lameness twice, I don't think that's the case.

I'm trusting them there, and looking at other training etc related issues.

I'm the biggest advocate for my horse and won't just keep working her through something if it is going to cause her any pain. I'm just trying to understand other people's experiences, whilst explaining what I've found/been told by professionals to date.

Ok then ?‍

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I think I would get your instructor to film your lesson for a start as you may notice something there.

Do you use a physio or similar on a regular basis?

 

[milliepops]

the difficulty for owners/riders is that things often can be improved by training and still have a physical cause at the root of them. my horse improved 10 fold through training to the point no one could see him do it, in fact he rarely ever did it after the first few months because I'm a rider who is quite good at getting a horse to move equally left and right, it's sort of my hobby horse... i'm a bit obsessed with straightness i could probably still be riding him now if I'd been able to overlook subtle little things that made me feel unhappy with the way he was in other ways, everyone thought i was crazy when i kept banging on about "I think we need the vet now"

So you can frame lots of things as needing additional training and you *can* often train them better, because some training can be like physiotherapy. but that sometimes doesn't actually fix the underlying problem and you can just end up kicking it down the road a bit. it's sometimes difficult to work out which it is.

 

[FlyingCircus]

I think I would get your instructor to film your lesson for a start as you may notice something there.

Do you use a physio or similar on a regular basis?

Certainly worth a shot! Yeah she has regular chiropractor and physio. She is my baby ? Gets better care than my other half does

 

[FlyingCircus]

the difficulty for owners/riders is that things often can be improved by training and still have a physical cause at the root of them. my horse improved 10 fold through training to the point no one could see him do it, in fact he rarely ever did it after the first few months because I'm a rider who is quite good at getting a horse to move equally left and right, it's sort of my hobby horse... i'm a bit obsessed with straightness i could probably still be riding him now if I'd been able to overlook subtle little things that made me feel unhappy with the way he was in other ways, everyone thought i was crazy when i kept banging on about "I think we need the vet now"

So you can frame lots of things as needing additional training and you *can* often train them better, because some training can be like physiotherapy. but that sometimes doesn't actually fix the underlying problem and you can just end up kicking it down the road a bit. it's sometimes difficult to work out which it is.

Very true. I too am a huge stickler for straightness and can feel very easily when they're not, even if by a little.

But as an amateur owner, there has to be a point at which I have to trust the professionals around me to do their jobs and help me to work through whatever the problem is, if its work-through-able.

 

[FlyingCircus]

the difficulty for owners/riders is that things often can be improved by training and still have a physical cause at the root of them. my horse improved 10 fold through training to the point no one could see him do it, in fact he rarely ever did it after the first few months because I'm a rider who is quite good at getting a horse to move equally left and right, it's sort of my hobby horse... i'm a bit obsessed with straightness i could probably still be riding him now if I'd been able to overlook subtle little things that made me feel unhappy with the way he was in other ways, everyone thought i was crazy when i kept banging on about "I think we need the vet now"

So you can frame lots of things as needing additional training and you *can* often train them better, because some training can be like physiotherapy. but that sometimes doesn't actually fix the underlying problem and you can just end up kicking it down the road a bit. it's sometimes difficult to work out which it is.

What else was yours doing that led you down the route to diagnosis?

 

[FlyingCircus]

I think I would scan but work ups do find things which are not actually 'the problem'. You need a vet who is an expert in lameness and can make that judgement

Yeh, this is what me and my vet have discussed. We may find all sorts that are actually not causing the problem (and maybe causing another problem, maybe none at all). It's very hard to tell when there isn't a distinct obvious lameness or injury.

She is also only under saddle a year and that hasn't been for the full year, so she is intermittent with all things from a balance, muscle, etc perspective too, which makes trying to rule in/out anything more complex too. If she were a well schooled 12 Yr old and I still had this problem, I'd be looking at it much more differently.

 

[Zuzan]

In my experience this is related to the "handedness" of horses .. in the same way that humans usually are left or right handed .. if right handed the right side is stronger.. in horses this manifests itself as the left side being shorter and stronger and finding that bend easier .. this side will feel "higher" under the seat .. the longer (rh) side will feel lower.. this can be momentary as in your case or sustained.. the better balanced and evenly developed a horse becomes the lesser this manifests itself. Another thought is that human asymmetry my feed the asymetry of a horse. So I would address this through lateral work developing the weaker quarter / hind.

 

[milliepops]

What else was yours doing that led you down the route to diagnosis?

well mine was both lame and also a wobbler in the end, it's one of those disaster stories and it was the wobbler symptoms that led me to get it all looked at, he just stood weirdly at leisure sometimes and that gave me bad vibes. I'm with a referral practice and their neuro guy is also a very good lameness vet. the lameness was like a spin off finding that we just all joined the dots up about afterwards as causing the one-sidedness, it was not noticeable in exercise until he got tired.

i guess if you're sure you've had the best vets look that you can possibly muster then you could really work to equalise the strength and suppleness of both sides and continue until it either improves or gives you something noticeable that you can then investigate.

My sad experience has been that you can push horses through things so far and then eventually it turns out there is something wrong. I've seen this time after time which is why i'm a total doom monger if something feels wrong these days.

 

[Shilasdair]

I've read all your comments, OP and understand that you don't like the responses you have received regarding lameness.

But I still think - lame behind.

And if you don't find the root of the pain/lameness, she will try ever more twisty and harmful ways to avoid the pain. Just because your vets haven't found it yet, doesn't mean it isn't there. Trust yourself and your mare - you know that there's something wrong here.

 

[FlyingCircus]

Thanks everyone. I'll have another conversation with my vet. My saddle fitter has pointed out this afternoon that my saddle is not the best fit due to the large (deep) panels where she was dipping away. So, could be something there, could be nothing to do with saddle fit and be something more serious. I guess it's another of those "fun" where's wally but searching for the source of a problem in an animal who can't talk.

 

[foxy1]

Sounds like the hip is dropping which is hind limb lameness

 

[SEL]

Could be PSSM, but in my experience (& I've had too much) that tends to present as 'riding through treacle' or back end stiffness. You can get a hitchy gate with some of the type 2 myopathies - most of them improve off grass (or at least limited), vitamin E and more protein. What breeding?