Welcome to my nightmare. (sorry - long post)

skinnydipper

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Please see my introduction.

In December I had 3 dogs, then Chloe my Lurcher had to be put to sleep after a long battle with cancer (grade 3 mast cell) and heart disease. At the time my English Bull Terrier cross, Kitty, was in pain and not eating. After weeks of vet visits, blood tests and, finally, imaging she was diagnosed with liver cancer in January and put to sleep. During all this time my German Shepherd Sully was ill. I started taking him to the vets in October with abdominal pain which started after a course of Previcox. Vet visits - too many to count, saw 4 different vets, all the time he was getting worse. Eventually diagnosed with lymphocytic plasmacytic IBD in January and started on high dose steroids to which he has not responded so another immune modulating drug has been added to his treatment in the hope of getting him in remission. His is not typical IBD as he had no diarrhoea but did have occasional large bile vomits - the abdominal pain is main symptom. Does have loose stools now due to the treatment.

I am terrified I am going to lose him, he is a very sick dog. I have already lost one German Shepherd to an autoimmune disease. Yogi was only 7 when he succumbed to SLE. Sully is just turned 6.

Sully has now tested positive for food allergies to beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, rice, wheat, corn, potato, pea and egg.

Prior to the Previcox he had been a happy dog, couldn't get him out of the sea at the beach, loved playing with his ball in the river. enjoyed his walks. Now his quality of life is very poor, constantly panting, too lethargic to walk never mind play, constantly drinking and peeing. Gone are the hour long walks, more like 5 minutes. I know this is probably due to the steroids and he has already had his Pred reduced.

His allergens rule out commercial dog food, he reacted very badly to the hydrolysed protein diet prescribed by the vet. The only food I found was Ziwi Peak Venison which I am buying for him and will buy as long as necessary (£66 for 2.5kg bag which lasts a week) and I am supplementing this with cooked pork and fish and tinned sardines. I found the forum while searching for a balanced diet that I could safely feed him. I was looking into raw feeding but this is not advised with immuno compromised dogs as they are unable to cope with the bacteria in the way that a normal dog could. Cooking complete minces 80/10/10 not an option as the bone becomes brittle and sharp and can further irritate his inflamed intestines. His calcium levels have already dropped alarmingly and I now supplement with a natural calcium. All the dietary supplements I have found for dogs contain something he is allergic to. His liver results are showing the effects of steroid use.

I desperately want Sully to come through this. He was dealt such a poor hand and has come so far. He was bought by an idiot and kept in a backyard for his first 18 months. He received no socialisation with other dogs or people, other than a small poodle which lived in the house and which the owner said "used to nail him". In other words she let him be bullied from 6 or 8 weeks old. He had no toys or stimulation. He had had no training of any description. He spent his days in the yard and his nights sleeping on the bare kitchen floor. He was absolutely wild when I met him but somehow we clicked. The previous owner said she could not take him out because she used a mobility scooter and when asked why she got him she said it was to use him for stud. She had no idea of the status of his hips and no idea of his parents' hip or elbow scores. He had never been groomed and was 10 kg underweight. She wanted him rehomed as he was unmanageable (surprise)

In actual fact Sully has hip and elbow dysplasia and I was taking him for laser and hydro but since he has been on the steroids he hasn't had the energy for the hydrotherapy and his fitness has suffered.

He had never been on a lead and was extremely reactive and fear aggressive, although he was always fine with my dogs and cat (I had 5 other dogs when he came to live with me).

He was 18 months when I got him and he is just turned 6. He enjoys training and scent games and is a very smart boy. He is a loving and devoted companion. He has come a long way although it has been very slow progress. I could write a book about our journey.

He has the rest of his life in front of him if only I can get him through this crisis and back to some degree of fitness.

I would appreciate any and all help. Perhaps you have experience of his illness and treatment. Maybe you could help with advice on feeding. I have always felt that Sully is worth the time and energy and this is breaking my heart.

Thank you.
 

Clodagh

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I am so sorry to hear you have had such an awful year. I suspoect (and I don't know you at all) that you want Sully to keep going 1. because you cannot cope losing another and 2. Because he had a horrible start in life.
1. IMO only he should not suffer because you don't want to lose him.
2. He has forgotten his poor start in life, he is a dog, he does not look back philosophically over his life.

If he was mine he would be PTS, poor boy, he must be going through hell. So all his joints hurt as so does his gut?

Sorry and perhaps someone can come along and be more positive.
 

skinnydipper

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Thank you for your reply. I have considered euthanasia and have discussed it with his vet. I don't want to lose him but neither do I want to see him suffer. It is her feeling that we should give him more time to respond and that once he is off steroids there are other treatment options that can be tried.
 

CorvusCorax

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Hi there SD. You sound like a very caring owner and I really feel for you and Sully, reading your post.

I had a GSD that, on paper, was bred in the purple from show lines, I knew exactly how he was bred from many generations.
While his hips and elbows were good, as they should have been with his genetics, he had a back problem and lots of allergies. I now know that linebreeeding to certain dogs could have been a factor in the allergies.
Parts of his body were red raw with no hair on them, his hair was greasy and he was hot to the touch, his ears became green and crusty if not checked and treated regularly. He was on steroids and anti-histamines and anti-biotics for most of his life.
We eventually stabilised him on very cheap fish and rice mulch from a pet store chain, but it was discontinued, raw food just sent him completely haywire and on tins, he impacted.
We got him when he was six months old but he had already had surgery as a baby puppy to correct a genital deformity. This was a warning sign of things to come and he suffered with urinary tract infections and other complications throughout his life. As one vet put it after a scan: 'He's just put together wrong inside, everything is upside down and back to front'.
This could have been due to something which happened during whelping (his bits getting squished on the way out, who knows), or just genetic/developmental.
He eventually succumbed to anal furunculosis before he was six years old. All the skin conditions he had suffered were a big red flag, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
He was also reactive towards other dogs but he was smart and he exposed me to the world of working dog training and did OK with low level tracking although his allergies stopped play for months at a time - it's hard to train tracking when you don't know what food the dog can and can't eat.
Other dogs in the litter also suffered health problems, but none so bad as his, his litter sister who we also owned, was completely physically healthy.

I guess what I am trying to say is that nature was telling us something the whole time, even when he was just a few weeks old, things were not just right with him. I expected he would not make old bones, but did not expect him to go so young and so suddenly (the fissure that opened was absolutely huge) and there was nothing that could be done.

Sully is your dog and it is your decision and you clearly care very much for him, but personally speaking, while I am glad that my dog was in my life and that he opened up so many opportunities for me and taught me a lot, he probably should have been let go sooner rather than for all the problems to multiply and get worse over time. I am glad that he is now at peace and no longer in any pain.
 
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skinnydipper

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Thank you CorvusCorax. I know exactly what you are saying. I feel I owe it to Sully to at least give him a chance to come through this and once more enjoy life. I have never hesitated to put a dog to sleep when I have felt this was the best option for them but with Sully I am hopeful of a more positive outcome (perhaps deluding myself).
 

MotherOfChickens

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I am really sorry for what you have been through and for poor Sully. Reading back through what you have written, with the benefit of not knowing either of you and therefore being objective, I would PTS. Its a list of medical problems that in themselves would be hard enough to deal with but together I would worry too much about quality of life. He's had a good few years of being loved and useful-in people terms he's had decades of love and care from you. I wish you well but in your shoes I would be calling it a day.
 

jedjelly

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That's a heartbreaking read Skinny, for both of you. Your love for Sully is very clear and he will feel this every day. Sometimes, life with animals doesn't feel very fair, especially when we feel due a break from tragic events.
Does your vet truly feel he has a chance of recovery? It's tough for vets too, to see much loved pets struggling. The temptation is to throw everything at the problem, in vein hope to make two lives better.
If your vet has genuine hope, can they refer to an expert in this health issue for a final opinion?
Sadly for us, some special animals only stay a short while, teaching us as they go. Asking nothing but love in return and there's no doubt that Sully feels loved.
 

Pearlsasinger

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I'm afraid that I agree with the others, I would pts based on his current quality of life and the prognosis. I have found in many cases that vets will keep an animal going too long with 'just one more thing' to try.

I am surprised that your vet is saying that there is an alternative to steroids, it is my experience that steroids usually improve the symptoms but don't cure the problem and are usually used, in a long term problem, to give an extra few weeks of good qol.

He has had 5 good years with you, he knows that he is loved but is he really enjoying his life now any more than he enjoyed his first 18 months?

It is always difficult to make the pts decision and even harder with a young animal, you have all my sympathy, OP.
 

AmyMay

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Such a sad post. I'm so sorry op.

If he were mine he'd be gone tomorrow. I simply couldn't allow the suffering to continue.
 

Leo Walker

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Another for PTS :( But if you want to try then I would move him to RAW, but the minces without bone in and then cook them for him. You can get lots that have no bone in. I'd be double checking the bone thing as well. Things like natural instinct are just a smooth paste so cant have anything much in them. There are some lightly steamed options as well that might be worth looking into.
 

skinnydipper

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I think perhaps I should not have mentioned about losing the girls so recently, it has no bearing on my decisions with Sully. I am trying to do what is best for him. It was I who brought up the subject of euthanasia with the vet as I did not want to see him suffer. I have never kept a pet alive for my benefit and hope my love for him is not clouding my judgement.

I wish I was more articulate and able to express and portray things better.

He does not have constant abdominal pain, rather it comes in spasms and I give him medication to ease that. He has access to me at all times and comes to me in the night to let me know he has pain and I get up, give him medication and sit with him until it settles. If I need to go out then my husband stays with him. It is the effect of the steroids and other medication that is causing the most problems - he was on a massive dose initially - 15 x 5mg tablets per day of Prednidale. At its worst he was having up to 5 episodes a day, once I knew his allergens and excluded them and his treatment started this has reduced but not completely stopped - now once or twice a day - and I try to be hopeful that remission can be achieved.

The allergies started when his gut was inflamed (? due to Previcox though the vet does not agree this caused it) Inflammation of the gut causes intestinal permeability which allows food particles through the gut wall and the body mounts an immunological response to them which results in allergies - unfortunately the allergies are permanent and will always have to be managed. Most of Sully's are IgG responses which are delayed reactions but 2 were IgE which could potentially result in anaphylaxis

I have read extensively about his condition and that dogs can achieve remission, which is what I am hoping for with Sully. There are other immunosuppressant drugs such as Azathioprine and Cyclosporine which can be used but Prednisolone is the first line of treatment to try. I think if he were a person he would choose to try treatment and have the chance of life rather than die, which is pretty final. The vet said the effect of the drugs is cumulative and that I should give them a chance to work. I think in a way putting him to sleep now would be the easy option for me but I want to give him a chance of life.

I have read some studies that suggest the gut bacteria are implicated in this disease and that a certain prescription probiotic used for humans with colitis has been helpful so I also started Sully on that, it is called VSL#3.

Naively I had been hoping for more positive comments, for help with his diet and to hear from someone whose dog had had the same diagnosis and what had helped their dog. I am fully aware that I am going to have to make a tough decision soon.

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. There were some very intuitive and insightful replies and I have taken everything on board.
 

Pearlsasinger

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We had a rescue Rottie who had numerous allergies which affected her digestive system, she was on a special diet for several years. We think (but could be wrong) that it started because she was fed a very cheap 'complete' diet in her early months. She lived to be 9. She had been on steroids, on and off for some time but eventually the decision had to be made. Unfortunately she took a turn for the worse at 11 0'clock one evening and we had to rush her to the surgery, where she was pts. The vet knew her very well and decided in the end that she had a tumour which had grown.
 

skinnydipper

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Thank you Pearlsasinger. Intestinal lymphoma has been mentioned by the vet though I hope it does not progress to that - euthanasia would be a no brainer at that point.

I have tried to add Sully's picture to my avatar but it seems I don't have the privileges but perhaps I am doing something wrong. Technology seems to have passed me by. I don't even use a smart phone!
 

Cinnamontoast

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So sorry you’re going through this, but honestly, he sounds in pain and like he’s suffering. I’d pts too, even though it would break my heart were he mine.
 

Moobli

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I have read all the replies but really have nothing useful to add other than to say I am so sorry you are having such a heartbreaking time. I think if you vet is happy to continue with treatment (and you trust your vet) then that would be good enough for me. Are there any specialists in this area that you could consult with?
 

{97702}

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My dog of a lifetime was a rescue lurcher who I lost in 2008 - he developed digestive problems quite suddenly, and I was back and forth to the vet endlessly with him. Finally they operated on him and found that his whole gut was massively inflamed - the best case scenario was that he had IBS, the worst case was that he had carcinoma of the gut. The vet took biopsies.

I will be forever grateful to my mum who of course I phoned immediately - she is my mentor and source of all advice dog-wise. She simply said to me 'even if it is the best case scenario, will he be really happy?'

Talisker, my lurcher, had always been scrupulously clean in the house and he HATED that his digestive problems meant he could no longer be so. I didn't hesitate - he was still very woozy from the general anaesthetic he had had for the surgery, I rang the vets, went down there to be with him and he was PTS while I was with him.

I have never ever regretted that decision. The vets were quite taken aback when I phoned them to say that was what I wanted to do, but they were very supportive all the same. The biopsies came back positive - it was cancer - but even if they hadn't I knew it was the right thing to do.

I can fully understand how you feel OP, my current dogs are aged 11 years, 11 years, 10 years and 18 months respectively so I know I am in for a very very tough time at some point, but I would echo what others have said - I would PTS in these circumstances for his sake
 

{97702}

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Thank you Pearlsasinger. Intestinal lymphoma has been mentioned by the vet though I hope it does not progress to that - euthanasia would be a no brainer at that point.

I have tried to add Sully's picture to my avatar but it seems I don't have the privileges but perhaps I am doing something wrong. Technology seems to have passed me by. I don't even use a smart phone!

Please see my post - that was exactly the scenario I encountered....

Avatars are very tricky as the picture has to be very very small! Shrink the picture as much as you can before trying to upload?
 

CorvusCorax

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You just need a few more posts to be able to upload an avatar.

I used to be on here, in bits, frequently, or sending annoying PMs....every week there seemed to be a new issue or drama.
My dog basically appeared to be allergic to life in general, even the bacteria that occurred naturally on his own skin, according to one vet. He wasn't insured, we spent thousands, I read and read, I studied pedigrees, I lived on my nerves, checking daily for scabs on his ears, raw patches on his skin, blood in his urine.
Once one thing was sorted, another one popped up. I know what it is like to see a dog that should be in his prime, so old before his time. It is hard on everyone.
 

skinnydipper

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Unfortunately due to the amount of pets I had, insurance was not an option. The vets bills would make your eyes water. My vet said I have just been unlucky having so many pets with serious health issues. I look forward to one day having a healthy companion.
 

{97702}

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Unfortunately due to the amount of pets I had, insurance was not an option. The vets bills would make your eyes water. My vet said I have just been unlucky having so many pets with serious health issues. I look forward to one day having a healthy companion.

None of my dogs are insured for the same reason - I understand where you are coming from entirely
 

CorvusCorax

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Can I say, and with no disrespect to you or your dog or my late dog - and of course, with fingers tightly crossed and touching all the wood available to hand - when you have a physically healthy and robust dog and you don't have to agonise over what they eat or watch them like a hawk for relapses and lie awake at night worrying about them, you will probably have a new appreciation and a fuller understanding of everything you and he have borne.

Please do keep us posted, whatever you decide to do and I really hope it works out for the best, for you both.
 

skinnydipper

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Levrier, that was a very courageous decision you made. When Kitty had her diagnostic imaging recently I requested they ring me while she was still under anaesthetic and when I knew the findings I asked them not to wake her. I saw no point in prolonging her agony in any way. I went to say my goodbyes and she was still warm.
 

{97702}

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Now I think about it, Talisker was originally called Sully before I gave him a home.... he was re-named after my whisky theme

I hope these stories help you make the right decision for your Sully, however hard that is xx
 

Pearlsasinger

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I had a small black cat who got an ulcerated scratch on her eye, which didn't heal. Vet advised removing the eye, she came through the op well and came home witha buster collar to stop her scratching the wound. She had a variety of tablets to take, which she hated. After a couple of weeks the wound wasn't healing as expected, so she went back to the vets and had an x-ray, her heart wasn't working properly and she had fluid on her lungs. I asked the vet if we should pts. Vet said no, we can do something to clear the fluid and improve her heart function. After 3 months of her living in the bathroom, so that my other cat couldn't eat her special food and the dogs couldn't knock her, there was still no improvement, she was pts.
I have a lot of respect for that vet but I know he hates the pts part of his job and will put it off whenever he can but I have always regretted that I didn't insist on pts when she was at the surgery for x-ray. Sometimes the owner has to make the decision, based on what they know of the animal's qol, rather than the vet thinking of what is scientifically possible.

I do feel for you in this situation.
 

Welshy

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My little dog has LPE / IBD also, diagnosed by endoscopy and biopsy.

It has taken well over a year to stabilise her. She couldn’t tolerate the steroids and she was quite an unhappy little dog on them. Not ideal, but a long course of metronidazole really helped her, and I was really on the ball with symptomatic treatment for the pain and sickness. She tolerated the hydrolysed diet well (PVD HA was the one we eventually settled for) so I was rigid with this. She also had - and still has bid omeprazole — If I so much as miss a dose, then she’s poorly again quite quickly.

It really has been a very testing year-18 months. She also had stomach ulceration and has had a few incidences of pancreatitis which has further limited diet options) She’s had two endoscopies at referral — the second of which we were expecting a lymphoma diagnosis, but fortunately just an Ibd flare up.

One thing I have noticed is that ‘extreme’ exercise seems to trigger her off. So an afternoon hoolying on the beach or through the fields usually sees her up in the night with a flare up. She is 13y now and is free range around the farm with me — that seems to be enough to keep her ticking along happily — I can imagine with a younger dog, that mightn’t be enough though.

She is fairly stable now and I feel quite confident about managing the flare ups as they (inevitably will) happen.

I know it’s not the exact same scenario but just wanted to offer some hope. Some dogs stabilise quicker, others take much longer. I know how upsetting it is when you seem to be on a never ending spiral of poorliness with them - the light at the end of the tunnel just seems to get further and further away xx
 

skinnydipper

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Oh, Welshy. Thank you so much for your post - I could hug you. Yours is the reply I was hoping for. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to reply.

Your dog has had a really rough time, thank goodness she had a dedicated owner to see her through this.

Evidently Sully should have responded quite quickly to the Prednidale but it just made him ill, it really knocked him for 6. He is being weaned off it but it is a slow process - he was on 15 initially. He is on 6 at present and on Saturday this drops to 4. I know that after stopping them, prolonged high dose steroids can take many weeks to get out of the system so it is going to be a long haul before he feels better in himself.

Metronidazole is the drug which was added, he is now into his 3rd week, taking 600mg bd. Can you remember how long your little dog needed to take the Metronidazole before she achieved remission and for how long after? Does she take a maintenance dose?

Sully was on Ranitidine for over a month but the vet stopped it as there was no improvement, I wonder if it would be worth restarting.

The food the vet prescribed was Hills z/d and it made him ill. I will look into the Purina HA but I don't want to rock the boat at the moment with another change in his diet.

Is the Purina HA the only thing your dog eats?

May you have many more years with your little dog.

Thank you again.
 

{97702}

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I am going to sound very harsh now, but I do not think it is acceptable to have a dog (or any animal) living in pain/discomfort for a year before being stabilised. I simply could not put my much-loved dogs through that, knowing they were suffering :(

I appreciate you have been through a tough time OP, losing animals is the worst part of owning them and having to make the right decision for them is just horrible. But it has to be done - from your description, Sully is at a stage where he will be in constant pain/discomfort either from his digestive problems or from his joints. Please don’t keep him alive trying speculative treatments because you cannot bear to lose him - think of him, and make the right choice for him to go peacefully and quietly.
 

Welshy

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I just wrote a very long reply and my phone ate it!

Can I just add though -- my little dog was certainly not left in pain for a year. She was very well managed throughout and we were 100% on the ball with symptomatic treatment. No her disease wasn't stable, but her symptoms were well managed until it did stabilise.
I'm not saying this is the case with OP's dog - or if it will/can be the same outcome as I am not a vet, but I just wanted to share our experience. I honestly thought we would never achieve this level of control and there was a point when I thought that perhaps this isn't going to end how we were hoping but we did get there and I have a very happy little dog who lives a pretty normal life now.

OP: We did try the z/d at one point but, after a particularly nasty flare up, she developed a food aversion to it. I don't think the z/d is a hydrolysed protein and I think it may contain chicken which *can* be a problem for these dogs. We also worked out way through Hills ID, Hills ID low fat and RCW hypoallergenic before settling on the HA which is a hydrolysed protein.

Now that she is stable, I have been able to wean her onto a 'novel protein diet' which has been James Wellbeloved Turkey. The main reason for switching now was ease of ordering as HA can't just be collected from pets at home etc when you run out. The HA looks fairly bland and boring but mine did eat it well and others who we have recommended it to have done well with it too.

Drugs wise -- I can't remember how long we used the metronidazole for (I've looked through her notes but, as I work at the vets and she is a staff dog, her actual written notes are very 'sparse') - it was a long course though - months - I know this isn't ideal with an antibiotic but it really made a noticeable difference to her journey.

We used ranitidine symptomatically (we did use it regularly initially but this wasn't effective), Tramadol for pain relief as needed and Metaclopromide for nausea and sickness (cerenia wasn't as effective for her). She was on a LOT of medication during the worst of it but it kept her comfortable and the only ones really struggling with it were us as we had no idea if we would ever get to a stage where we weren't reliant on so many drugs.


Can I just re-iterate that I am not a vet and not recommending any of this, not can I guarantee the same outcome -- I just wanted to list the things that we tried throughout our journey incase any of it may help you and your boy (under your vets guidance :) )

Sending lots of love and hugs your way Xx
 
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skinnydipper

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Levrier.

I think sometimes it is better not to give an opinion about things that you have no experience of.

Sully's hip and elbow dysplasia are managed conservatively with cold laser therapy and hydrotherapy. They have not stopped him living a fulfilled and happy life. (Even Fitzpatrick's offer conservative management with physio, hydrotherapy and laser treatment)

He has continued with his laser therapy but the effect of the steroids has meant he is currently too tired to have his hydrotherapy. He attends an Animal Rehab Clinic for his hydro and the vets for his laser treatment

The problem with his gut did not start a year ago and he is not receiving "speculative" treatments. He started Prednisolone on 18 January this year and on Metronidazole on 29 January. Please don't make ill informed judgements.

If you wish to learn then "Inflammatory Bowel Disease in dogs - Diagnosis & Therapy" Todd R Tams, DVM, DACVIM is a good place to start, it outlines the various protocols to treat the disease. He also wrote the Handbook of Small Animal Gastroenterology. He is an internationally renowned expect and Chief Medical Officer at VCA West Los Angeles Animal Hospital.

Another informative paper is
How I treat inflammatory bowel disease in dogs
Stanley L. Marks, BVSc, PhD, DACVIM (Internal Medicine, Oncology), DACVN University of California,
Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine, Davis, CA, USA
Professor of Small Animal Medicine

You are mistaken if you think I joined the forum to conduct a poll on whether Sully should be put to sleep, I can make that decision myself thank you. I was hoping for advice from somebody who had some experience of the disease.

If you have nothing useful to contribute perhaps it would be better to keep quiet.
 
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