Western horse are they lame ?

sbloom said:
Top level competitive dressage exhibits massive levels of dysfunction, injections are used as prophylactic, there are a lot of things wrong with how we "see" horses and how we think they should move. It is a LONG way from physiotherapy from the horse, which I agree is a thing indeed but it's not in evidence in the competition arena, far from it. See the work of Manolo Mendez, Jean Luc Cornille, Celeste Leilani Lazaris amongst many that I admire and whose work, based around groundwork, is indeed therapeutic for the horse.

Those peanut roller western pleasure horses are unlikely doing the work daily, and if they were they'd be knackered by the age of 8, especially when most of them are started at 2 and carry large riders and saddles. Mark Rashid would not be riding horses in that way I'm quite sure.
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Yes, well I agree with all that. As I stated, it is the interpretation by trainers and riders.

But I also think that unfamiliar does not automatically equal wrong.
 
That video is better than the first one but I wouldn't say that horse did an extended trot at any time, the hind end just lacks impulsion and the horse isn't tracking up properly but I think that they just naturally move in a more subtle way than how a lot of other breeds move and what we are used to.
 
Pinkvboots said:
That video is better than the first one, but I wouldn't say that horse did an extended trot at any time, the hind end lacks impulsion, and the horse isn't tracking up properly, but I think that they naturally move in a more subtle way than how a lot of other breeds move and what we are used to.
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The American Quarter Horse Association rule book sets out the pace requirements just as the British dressage rule book does. But the pace requirements are not the same in both rule books. Therefore, the ranch riding extended trot looks nothing like the dressage extended trot. That doesn't mean either is wrong.

I know which version I'd prefer if I needed to cover a lot of pasture to find cows.
 
Bless y’all, I have two well bred western horses and I can assure you that neither is lame. That first video is just the weirdness that is pleasure, it’s not for me. However, western bred horses have very different conformation from English horses and have very different movement and paces. Don't judge western riding & horses by a video that you love to get outraged by.
 
I see the same "these horses are built differently" excuse used to justify the abuse of TWH and Saddlebred.

No horse's back is built to hinge upwards behind the saddle like that to facilitate the hind feet moving forward while the forehand is glued to the floor.
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Alibear said:
The American Quarter Horse Association rule book sets out the pace requirements just as the British dressage rule book does. But the pace requirements are not the same in both rule books. Therefore, the ranch riding extended trot looks nothing like the dressage extended trot. That doesn't mean either is wrong.

I know which version I'd prefer if I needed to cover a lot of pasture to find cows.
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I think its just what you get used to looking at isn't it really, I would love to go on a ranch holiday and I have ridden a quarter horse and ridden in a western saddle before, yes I agree you wouldn't want a big powerful extended trot for all day riding.
 
ycbm said:
It's not crap riding, it's very skilled to achieve that, but why the hell would you want to train a horse to move like it's crippled?

The strain on that poor creature's back is immense.
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Yes he could have chosen to use his skill in a far more productive way. I spent 12 months in my 20’s in the USA and most of it bewildered that the way the western horses went was intentional. “But I don’t understand” must have driven the locals mad. 99% of them were the loveliest people but why do you want your 2 year old to shuffle along with his nose touching his tail. I don’t think I’m over it yet lol so I have had to stop looking.
 
TTK said:
Bless y’all, I have two well bred western horses and I can assure you that neither is lame. That first video is just the weirdness that is pleasure, it’s not for me. However, western bred horses have very different conformation from English horses and have very different movement and paces. Don't judge western riding & horses by a video that you love to get outraged by.
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Horses are horses, they don't differ that much, and a healthy movement pattern that ain't. Plenty of it in ALL other equestrian sports though if you want to be fair, at all levels, but that is beyond ignorance as to how a horse should move, and has a disregard for at least allowing a horse to have some level of nobility. It strikes at the human belief, not just "English riders" of how a horse should be, where, sadly, gold medal winning dressage does not.
 
hock said:
Yes he could have chosen to use his skill in a far more productive way. I spent 12 months in my 20’s in the USA and most of it bewildered that the way the western horses went was intentional. “But I don’t understand” must have driven the locals mad. 99% of them were the loveliest people but why do you want your 2 year old to shuffle along with his nose touching his tail. I don’t think I’m over it yet lol so I have had to stop looking.
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But why do we want horses to do any of the things we train them to do? Making them prance around with their noses on their chests, or flinging their legs out like marionettes is no more "right" than having them going along with heads on the floor and slowed to a crawl. It's different, not necessarily wrong.
 
Cortez said:
But why do we want horses to do any of the things we train them to do? Making them prance around with their noses on their chests, or flinging their legs out like marionettes is no more "right" than having them going along with heads on the floor and slowed to a crawl. It's different, not necessarily wrong.
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The difference to me is that no horse would naturally do the American 4 beat canter but dressage is aimed at using the moves that many horses exhibit naturally when loose. Not to say I approve of the way horses are being bred to have more elastic movement in order to compete at high level dressage. There seems to be so much lameness now that is caused by this sort of breeding.
 
Can I just make a general point that seems to go unmentioned but it CRITICAL to understanding long term soundness, today's dysfunctional movement pattern (compensatory movement pattern) IS tomorrow's lameness. We seem to be a world away from what that really means, at all levels and in all disciplines.

I had a conversation yesterday with a wonderful McTim equine bodyworker, we have the same new client and we saw the exact same things from the photos and videos. Musculature tells the tale, crookedness tells the tale, and many "schooling issues" tell the tale.
 
Cortez said:
But why do we want horses to do any of the things we train them to do? Making them prance around with their noses on their chests, or flinging their legs out like marionettes is no more "right" than having them going along with heads on the floor and slowed to a crawl. It's different, not necessarily wrong.
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The older I get the more I question this. I’m not at the point where I’m giving up riding etc but occasionally for example I have the “I need to start doing more lateral work with this horse to strengthen etc” but then I think strengthen for what reason? He doesn’t need to be stronger to play tag all day with his mates in the field the strengthening is for me to make him nicer to ride. I’m in a weird place at the moment ethically I think with horse riding .. it could well be a mud life crisis. Ha ha I obviously mean mid … but I do think the mud makes me question my life choices too ?.
 
hock said:
The older I get the more I question this. I’m not at the point where I’m giving up riding etc but occasionally for example I have the “I need to start doing more lateral work with this horse to strengthen etc” but then I think strengthen for what reason? He doesn’t need to be stronger to play tag all day with his mates in the field the strengthening is for me to make him nicer to ride. I’m in a weird place at the moment ethically I think with horse riding .. it could well be a mud life crisis. Ha ha I obviously mean mid … but I do think the mud makes me question my life choices too ?.
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I don't think we have the right to do anything that harms their bodies - too much strengthening is done at the cost of another part of the body, as is stretching and all sorts of things we do that we think benefit them. Social licence means that personal ethics will eventually become irrelevant.
 
Cortez said:
But why do we want horses to do any of the things we train them to do? Making them prance around with their noses on their chests, or flinging their legs out like marionettes is no more "right" than having them going along with heads on the floor and slowed to a crawl. It's different, not necessarily wrong.
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I don't think you are right there C. I've seen even the most extreme dressage moves performed for a couple of moments by horses loose in a field. I've never seen a sound horse in a field move anything like that first video, and if I saw a horse voluntarily moving like it they'd be on their way to hospital pronto.
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ycbm said:
I don't think you are right there C. I've seen even the most extreme dressage moves performed for a couple of moments by horses loose in a field. I've never seen a sound horse in a field move anything like that first video, and if I saw a horse voluntarily moving like it they'd be on their way to hospital pronto.
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There are as many dressage horses in hospital, as you put it, as there are western horses. Note I did say not "necessarily" wrong. Modern dressage is a long, long way from horses in a field.
 
The AQA says that the lope should be a 3 time canter, so that's one thing out of the way. Judges need a refresh?

I recall speaking to the then head of the equine department at the RSPCA (years and years ago for a magazine article), who startled me by saying that he thought a horse shouldn't be ridden in "an outline" as that is not the way they are when in the wild. So, think about that .....................

And what is wrong with a saddlebred or a Walking Horse? They are lovely horses bred to give the rider a smooth ride for long distances, which died out in Europe when roads improved and carriage horses looked smarter doing a trot. Previously riders liked an ambler that was very smooth to ride for long distances.

I don't like the awful things they do to get into the show ring, but there is nothing wrong at all with the horses - it is just different.
 
I've ridden western ever since I have owned my own horses. I have only ever once ridden one of the highly trained quarter horses that is used for "top level" western classes like western pleasure. It was a weird feeling, and at jog the horse did feel stumbly and lame. Interesting but not particularly enjoyable, and not for me. Please don't think all "western" looks like that peanut rolling stuff, or that hobbly looking gait. That is the far extreme, and it's not what the majority of western riders either in the UK or the states are doing with their horses. (I always liked Trail best when I "did" western at a club level, which led me nicely into TREC, which I have always done in western tack on a western trained horse).
 
Orangehorse said:
The AQA says that the lope should be a 3 time canter, so that's one thing out of the way. Judges need a refresh?

I recall speaking to the then head of the equine department at the RSPCA (years and years ago for a magazine article), who startled me by saying that he thought a horse shouldn't be ridden in "an outline" as that is not the way they are when in the wild. So, think about that .....................

And what is wrong with a saddlebred or a Walking Horse? They are lovely horses bred to give the rider a smooth ride for long distances, which died out in Europe when roads improved and carriage horses looked smarter doing a trot. Previously riders liked an ambler that was very smooth to ride for long distances.

I don't like the awful things they do to get into the show ring, but there is nothing wrong at all with the horses - it is just different.
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Well, the FEI rules state that horses should be ridden with the face in front of the vertical, so there's another shibboleth out of the way to boot. What is wrong with the TWH and the saddlebred is how they are trained, in ways that are possibly even more evil than what is done to Western Pleasure horses, dressage horses, et al.

Equating the RSPCA with any kind of deep knowledge or authority where it comes to horses is quite a stretch.
 
looks bizarre to me, unnatural is a place i tend to avoid

training is to me, about being ready, when feeling a kink, discomfort, lack of relaxation or simply day when my self or the horse are not at our best, and backing off or most of the time finding a quiet way of eliminating whatever is causing the problem, that is my job as a rider.

and then trying to reach the place where the movement of the horse is liberated, then my job is to contain, as in holding a bird in my hand, follow the horse without interfering with its balance, so it naturally develops its own movement through carrying itself and a rider with a skill

often see the proof of development when they are playing loose, structure is more beautiful, movement seems expanded, they are more in control of their own bodies when galloping at speed etc.

i want my horses to use themselves in a functional easy way, not conform or be forced to conform with a set of rules which even the judges don`t understand or conform to at times
 
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Cortez said:
Well, the FEI rules state that horses should be ridden with the face in front of the vertical, so there's another shibboleth out of the way to boot. What is wrong with the TWH and the saddlebred is how they are trained, in ways that are possibly even more evil than what is done to Western Pleasure horses, dressage horses, et al.

Equating the RSPCA with any kind of deep knowledge or authority where it comes to horses is quite a stretch.
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Exactly my point!
 
ycbm said:
I don't think you are right there C. I've seen even the most extreme dressage moves performed for a couple of moments by horses loose in a field. I've never seen a sound horse in a field move anything like that first video, and if I saw a horse voluntarily moving like it they'd be on their way to hospital pronto.
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toally agree with this.

i`ve been looking for a long time and never seen anything like that, ever.

but maybe i missed it.
 
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