What advantage does a horse have trained by parelli regime v traditional training

I've written about my horse a lot so I'll condense it and say that he is the perfect example of what's wrong with selling people the idea they can "train" from no knowledge base. He's a very very much improved horse now he's not in that environment any more but my husband is currently sporting a lovely black eye because sometimes the need for Radley to "express his horsnality" (which anyone sane just calls being a rude, badly behaved, thuggish, pushy b*****d) gets too much for him. If he wasn't versatile and handsome he'd be lasagne by now.
 
Re withholding water, I found this:
http://www.newrider.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-182918.html

Seemed propostorus so was looking for proof online of this 'method'. Anyone know where this came about?

I'm all for working with a trainer but surely it's bad practise to sell DVDs to complete novices as a programme and have them expect to be able to effectively train a horse... I'm all for researching alternative training methods but gave up looking any further to parelli when read about 'games' and how much the whole programme would end up costing. On the whole I see where it can be effective as the programme expects you to spend time with your horse, as the late great Tom Dorrance said 'the slow way is the fast way with horses'.
 
Footprint said:
Re withholding water, I found this:
http://www.newrider.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-182918.html

Seemed propostorus so was looking for proof online of this 'method'. Anyone know where this came about?

I'm all for working with a trainer but surely it's bad practise to sell DVDs to complete novices as a programme and have them expect to be able to effectively train a horse... I'm all for researching alternative training methods but gave up looking any further to parelli when read about 'games' and how much the whole programme would end up costing. On the whole I see where it can be effective as the programme expects you to spend time with your horse, as the late great Tom Dorrance said 'the slow way is the fast way with horses'.
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I was Crystal Fire on New Rider and I did indeed email Parelli about the "patience post", withholding food and water etc. Bearing in mind the email I got from Linda was 2009, I'm guessing that things have changed!
 
Read the thread I posted above. He says that water is one of a horses main needs, along with food, and if you deprive him he will 'need' you more. Dead horses were found on his ranch and proven by post mortem to have been dehydrated.

I have ZERO time for the Parellis.
 
Woah that statement in 2006 boasting that he doesn't 'allow' water access until he says so as a control method but says it creates a great partnership. Whaaat. Why the hell isn't the pp empire shamed and banned from the media if they advocate this abuse, and I say abuse as how do they know a horse isn't just going to drop dead.

So, witholding water makes a more placid submissive horse to handle... So in essence to do this you must be pretty ignorant and scared of the horse, it's hardly going to gain respect and a trusting partnership, shouldn't the aim be to have the horse willingly choose to work with you....

And I thought the catwalk thing was bad.
 
Blimey, it's a good job I don't have many sleepless nights watching the telly. I am very sorry to have started something I should not have, but the whole thing just got me questioning what they do, why and what gain is there.

I have no interest or knowledge of the regime but I found myself watching it and waiting for someone to get hurt, then I got annoyed at all the 'savvy slapping' what the feck is that all about ? and all the talk about 'love from a horse'. All my horses love me, after all I am a bucket on legs and the disappointing bit is I am the same shape as a bucket.

I have had one experience with a parelli trained 3 yr old haflinger that boarded with me for a short while. It arrived and refused to come out of the trailer. I went in to help and found it had bitten it's owner on the chest and refused to let go. It had the coat, fleece and part of the woman's breast in it's mouth. I hit it with the first thing that came to hand, a small broom that was in the front of the trailer and it shot back letting go. The owner said it was expressing itself and was anxious in it's new surroundings. (It was being delivered having been sold to a friend of mine).

It was the most confident, bolshy, thugish and dangerous horse I have ever met, just 3 yrs old and only 14h it was impossible to handle, it just ran me over and the new owner was petrified of it. Sadly it ended up with a low end dealer after the owner admitted defeat. Personally I would have PTS because it was a major accident waiting to happen.

Now Ted has learning difficulties, he has a passport, newly trimmed tootsie's, Ok his stuffing is coming out at the moment but that will pass. I shall put him in a suitcase and send him to Oregon to the parelli school for the brain washed. He should be able to challenge them.
 
blackandwhite said:
I've written about my horse a lot so I'll condense it and say that he is the perfect example of what's wrong with selling people the idea they can "train" from no knowledge base. He's a very very much improved horse now he's not in that environment any more but my husband is currently sporting a lovely black eye because sometimes the need for Radley to "express his horsnality" (which anyone sane just calls being a rude, badly behaved, thuggish, pushy b*****d) gets too much for him. If he wasn't versatile and handsome he'd be lasagne by now.
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The horse or the husband?:eek::D
 
I've only met one person that I ever heard mention using "Parelli methods" but I never saw them really handle a horse to know if they were any good or not.
 
jinglejoys said:
Worked for us :D

MalagaatJames024-1.jpg
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Wow. Your mule is adorable!
 
Well Lindas response to the with holding of water was quite interesting.They claim that they do not with hold water as punishment, they don't believe in punishment.Its a training tool, so thats ok then.!! Its a shame really.I have seen some of the Parelli DVD events and Pat has done some good stuff.He has a lot to contribute to the horse world but he has gone and pretty well wrecked it hasn't he? There is a God.Thats a firm belief of m,ine and there will one day be a reckoning.
 
I would never discount anyone's training methods with any horse if they produced a well rounded horse, which could safely do what was asked of it, without any bad manners and if that could be achieved safely. Parelli, to me, have a lot of methods which are not safe, witholding water from an animal being one of those.

I don't want to know what my horses are thinking 24 hours a day, nor do I want to play games with them, it is my belief that horses play with eachother, who am I to play god?

I dislike the Parelli school of thought that every "traditional" practicing horseman beats seven shades out of their horse and boots it into some outline for their own gratification, because that simply isn't true, nor is it a traditional method, it is abouse not disimilar to witholding water.
 
I can see the use of NH as a means to an end. For example to create a less spooky horse for safer hacking, to improve trust, obedience and balance to enhance show jumping performance or to improve stable manners to make being around your horse more relaxing and enjoyable. However, what I don't understand is people who do only NH with seemingly no end and no goal in sight! What is the point of bouncing a ball off your horse?! Really?! Unless you're going to run away and join the circus where's the need to have your horse stand on a little box?! I totally understand doing these things if your horse has confidence issues and you are looking to improve this to allow you to progress for example in making him more settled in the trailer or at the show ground or on the roads or whatever but there's a group of people on my yard who just do NH, they endlessly have their horses cantering around barrels and reversing over poles etc with no reason behind it. Just all seems a it bizarre to me ....
 
Orls said:
I can see the use of NH as a means to an end. For example to create a less spooky horse for safer hacking, to improve trust, obedience and balance to enhance show jumping performance or to improve stable manners to make being around your horse more relaxing and enjoyable. However, what I don't understand is people who do only NH with seemingly no end and no goal in sight! What is the point of bouncing a ball off your horse?! Really?! Unless you're going to run away and join the circus where's the need to have your horse stand on a little box?! I totally understand doing these things if your horse has confidence issues and you are looking to improve this to allow you to progress for example in making him more settled in the trailer or at the show ground or on the roads or whatever but there's a group of people on my yard who just do NH, they endlessly have their horses cantering around barrels and reversing over poles etc with no reason behind it. Just all seems a it bizarre to me ....
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Noooo! You're talking about Parelli when you talk about bouncing balls off their heads, games etc etc. NH is a much wider approach and is really grounded in vaquero horsemanship. I do get twitchy about this, sorry.
 
Orls said:
I can see the use of NH as a means to an end. For example to create a less spooky horse for safer hacking, to improve trust, obedience and balance to enhance show jumping performance or to improve stable manners to make being around your horse more relaxing and enjoyable.
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I am a self confessed traditionalist, and find the above is all perfectly achievable with a bit of common sense, a kind but firm approach, and a bit of empathy.
 
tessybear said:
What i have always been curious about is if a youngster is brought up with Parelli methods, if then foreced to be sold does what will it do to that horse going to a home that perhaps doesn't do parelli methods ? :)
* Not after an argument simply curious*
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I recall having read more than once that many that does Parelli, prefers selling their horses to others that does Parelli or other Natural Horsemanship training, and as an exaple I found a HHO thread from 2011, where some of the answers was about horses that had been retrained (I quoted some other answers too, from this thread Would you buy a horse that had been parelli trained?)

The thread began with Magicmillbrook who wanted to buy a horse and had seen an advert with "a nice looking young horse that ticked all the boxes - apart from the fact that it has been parelli trained", the post ended with "Presuming a horse had been parelli trained beacause of the owners whim and not because it was a 'remedial' would it put you off?"

Four quotes:
Queenbee said:
In a nutshell, no! ... It would confuse and distress the horse, and you would have to have a proper understanding of Parelli to be able to retrain/ untrain a horse from these methods or to be able to continue with them. ...
What you may find is that the seller will not sell this horse to a rider who does not follow parelli, this is often the case, sometimes because they look down their noses at those who don't and other times because they recognise that it would be unfair to the horses. Chances are that if you are an honest purchaser and admit that parelli is not your thing, you won't be allowed to buy the horse anyway
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lastchancer said:
I did buy a parelli 'started' 3yo arab x, lovely natured animal but he could only go backwards unless someone was leading him. He had not even been taught to pick his feet up but would spend hours in the field climbing in and out of the water trough(!). He was very spoilt and bolshy and prone to dangerous tantums if he didn't get his own way (over petted?)
He had to be started again from the begining but as he was young he did come right. I think the previous owners were fairly incompetent so didn't manage to teach him anything that couldn't be undone.
He did make a great horse though and I heard down the grapevine that he later competed at Ponies UK and HOYS.
**Mr Binks **Blue/black & white 14.2hh if anyone knows him - would be great to get an update.
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Tinypony said:
Yes, no problem. If it's been trained up to the right ridden level then I'd expect the horse to respond very nicely to the way I ride. ... Finished "Parelli horses" should be no different to deal with than any others (as long as you bother to understand how they are a bit different to lunge). ...
Buying a Parelli horse is no different to buying any other horse really. ... For example you watch it handled, you handle it yourself, you ask the owner if there is anything you need to know about how it's been handled and ridden, you watch them ride and then if you like all of that you get on and have a go yourself. At any time in that process you might decide the horse had been badly handled or badly ridden, however someone claims to have trained it.
I wouldn't want to miss out on any horse I liked the look of based on assumptions made because of a label that was attached to it.
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LauraWheeler said:
It wouldn't put me off at all. Infact I got Herbie from a parelli home.
(Oh maybe he's not the best example as he was agressive and dangorous when I got him :( )
I did have to lie to the owner and tell her I would continu with the parelli :o (alot of Parelli people will insist there horse goes to another Parelli home, luckly I knew enough about the method to bluff my way through) . I felt bad lieing but I had to get the poor pony outa there ASAP.
Now he's away from Parelli and has been re trained he is a lovely little chap. I don't regret buying him for a single second.
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A quote from Parellinaturalhorsetraining.com
“I first advertised Sam on the Parelli ‘Horses for Sale’ member board, but didn’t get any responses. So that’s when I tried a broader audience with Horsetopia and crossed my fingers I’d find a Parelli person."
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By the sound of it, an owner who preferred to sell to someone continuing with the Parelli. So perhaps it isn't that usual that horses are retrained from being Parelli horses?

:confused:
 
I retrain almost all the horses I buy because I can't resist a project , I don't see why a parelli trained horse would not settle happily in a different form of training.
 
I am quite open minded with most training options and think bits can be picked from many different methods to suit an individuals needs. I do think parelli has become almost cult like more recently. A lady at my yard uses some Parelli methods and as I'm
Open minded to most things she showed me a thing or two, the basic principles are very similar to traditional methods, just explained differently. However I have to say I really don't get the showmanship stuff, great for making a tv show or putting on a show but not necessary really in every day horse life.

My main issue with Parelli being I don't want my horse to "play" with me as though I were another horses. Horses bite and kick eachother during play, I would have a serious problem if my horse did that to me. I want my horse to acknowledge me as his human owner, be respectful of me and in turn I will be respectful of him and accept he wants to play with horses not people.
 
Sorry if I'm going off topic, but I came across this advert:
Supernaturalhorses.com - Dollie: Naturally trained mare for sale in Frost, TX.
Price: $0 USD
Location: Frost, Texas, USA
Natural horsemanship (Philosophy used in training and/or handling): Pat Parelli
Discipline trained in (These may be disciplines the horse is trained in or suitable for): General Western
Temperament: 6 (1 = Lots of whoa - 10 = Lots of go)
Breed: Quarter Horse
Height: 15.2 hands high
Color: Sorrel
Birth Year: 2002
Gender: Mare
Horse Description: Hi, we want to find a good home for our sweet mare Dollie. She was our neighbors horse alone on their pasture and fell in love with our gelding through the fence and ended up joining our family so that she wouldn't be alone. She has never been ridden or started but all of our horses are trained using the Pat Parelli Methods so we have started her and handle her that way. She halters and leads, she stands for fly spray, grooming and baths. She had her teeth floated in August of 2012 and is current on shots and de-worming. She is incredibly inquisitive and curious. She is very quick to catch on to what is going on around her. When she runs in the pasture she has a beautiful gait and the ride would be very smooth. She would be the perfect 4-H project or starter horse in a natural training program. We want her to go to a great home so that is why we are offering her for free. If you are interested please call, text or email! Thank you!
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Born 2002(!!), has not even been started to become ridden and they're giving her away. Perhaps they just recently got her, but I still feel for saying - Run for the hills!


I know that there is this Parelli thing about classifying horses as this or that brain (Horsenality), but still, when I see someone saying their horse is right brained extrovert, I just get this thought in my head about one part brain and the rest empty void... :eek:


Have you noticed the words they use to categorise their different horsenalities? Horsenalitychart. Is it just me that thinks that there is only a few positive words here and there, but the majority is quite negative?


I must admit that I can't help but think of Scientology whenever I hear about the Parelli levels pathway. Wonder if those that reaches the highest levels, gets to meet the holy sheep?


And at last, a somewhat funny thread from the Chronicle of the horse - Forums - Is this "normal" Parelli? It begins with someone who says that "Last night at one of my horse group meetings they had a Parelli Level 2 (?) speaker." ...

:)
 
I'm not pro-Parelli honestly. I have a question. Does anyone seriously think that when Pat Parelli "plays" with his horses he would allow them to bite, kick or in any way beat him about? Does anyone think that Pat Parelli's horses aren't "respectful of his space". Would Pat P allow a horse to stand biting him in a trailer and say that the horse was expressing itself? I know the answer to all of those is that he wouldn't. So what exactly has gone wrong that these so-called Parelli students seem to think it's OK?

I think the horsenalities are one of the biggest money-spinning ideas that the Parelli organisation have come up with in a long time. The worst thing about them is that they will stop people looking at the horse in front of them, how that horse is at any given time, and dealing with that. I feel that the horsenalities will encourage anthropomorphic and encourage people to make assumptions about their horses.
 
Sorry can't quote as on my phone but no I don't think he would allow his horses to invade space as much as some people allow but I think while I want my horse to be a partner I think some people practicing Parelli have a slightly cloudy line where horse ends and person starts, whilst I want my horse to be my partner he is not my equal in the pecking order and should respect that. I also thinks it has the potential to create horses that are constantly asking questions of the rider or owner, they don't seem to encourage independent thought in the horse (not sure if I've explained that properly). A couple of horses I have come across have become really quite timid as they need constant reassurance. I also think that sometimes problems are created when its unnecessary as in oh there may be a scary obstacle ahead lets play x game etc when with a little confident riding the problem would never occur - hope that makes a little sense
 
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