what are your views on the chifney bit?

cptrayes said:
Zany do you really believe that there is not one horse in the world who was simply born odd? Especially when they are the product of generations of breeding designed to produce movement and not taking account of temperament? Where others in the family show the same behaviour? I find that German horses are known for being much calmer, in general, than KWPN with Dutch origins, for precisely the reason that KWPNs were focussed on their huge movement while the German's also bred for trainability.

The true reason my horse behaves the way he does from time to time (not on any timetable, at random) is because he is mentally unstable, just like some people are mentally unstable. He's a fragile, neurotic brained creature in a huge, athletically capable body. He looks very like Mistral Hojris, and that's a horse who has taken until he is 15 to consent to work on a regular basis, and even now there are days that they bring him out when he will not play nice, and they put him back on the lorry.

I do understand that you are not criticising me, please don't think that I do. But I can't understand how anyone who spends time with either humans or other animals can't see that some horses are born with undesireable behaviour hard-wired.

This is, by the way, NO excuse for idiots who don't know what they are doing to go hauling their horses about in a chifney! But they are a very useful tool to have in the toolbox.
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It's not about not seeing that horses are different or that some are mentally unstable. I just don't believe in violence/pain in any kind of training.

I wouldn't use pain (this bit works through pain, I doubt anyone denies that) dealing with a mentally disabled or neurotic human, and I would not use it on an animal. The exception is when I'm physically attacked or risking my own or others lives. Not as a training aid but as self defence.

And frankly, a horse that normally will risk peoples or its own safety and is completely impossible to help without inflicting pain or working through pain, is better off in heaven (or reincarnated with less nerves..). Or set free in a herd, but that's not really possible in these parts of the world.. As I've said before - these horses are extremely rare. Even your ''mentally unstable'' horse has improved loads from the training, no?. I wonder if he'd be completely sane at all times if he had gotten that kind of training from start. Not certain, but maybe.
 
You put "mentally unstable" in inverted commas and clearly again are telling me that you think I am wrong, when you've never met this horse. First you tell me that he can't possibly look as if he is on drugs. Now that he cannot be "mentally unstable". You seem to think I don't know my own horse.

There is no evidence of any kind that he did NOT get good training from the start. He was well started by the man I bought him from, I know that, and he came direct from stud unbroken, so I doubt anyone had messed him up at the stud. You just don't believe that some horses can just act nuts from time to time for no reason at all, no matter how good their training has been, do you?

Have you ever come across a horse who after five years of hacking the same road will attempt to turn and run for home because last week the foxglove on the verge was full of purple flowers and this week the flowers are all gone? Do you seriously think that there is any training that will completely cure a horse as hypersensitive as that?

We have a difference of opinion here which we can never reconcile. You don't believe any horses like mine exist, or at least that they would not be that way "if only" they'd been trained properly from a baby. I know that they exist - he's out in my barn and someone else has his brother, poor girl. If you are ever in this country and want to meet the kind of horse you've never come across before, let me know!
 
I haven't read through all of the posts as I can't be bothered.

I use a chifney quite frequently. Racehorses are no longer allowed to be lead around at the racecourses without a bit of some form in their mouths and the chifney is the preferred choice as it is easy to put on and off. I say I use one in a loose term - I put it on because I have to but the attached rope tends to be loose as said horse is trundling along quite happily beside me. I have never had to use one for the design with which they were intended. If you need to use one for safety reasons then do so. Simple as.
 
QR

A piece of equipment which has its place, all be it a very limited one in my tack room, but I wish people were all trained in their use - properly - before they are given them.
 
Urgh - why does HHO get so darn polarised at times like these?

Use a chifney, use a dually, use nothing at all, it really doesn't matter to me - but do it in the horse's best interests and keeping safety first.
 
when i took my cob to rossdales they put him a chifney in i wasnt happy has never needed one or controller halter since he was three they also lunge him in it but he had been box rested for six months and i can see why he total exploded rearing bucking and trying to take of if he hadnt had it we wouldnt have seen him for dust and he was four out five lame he is normally excellent to handle rope round the neck type i was so shocked never seen my horse like this ever
 
cptrayes said:
You put "mentally unstable" in inverted commas and clearly again are telling me that you think I am wrong, when you've never met this horse. First you tell me that he can't possibly look as if he is on drugs. Now that he cannot be "mentally unstable". You seem to think I don't know my own horse.

There is no evidence of any kind that he did NOT get good training from the start. He was well started by the man I bought him from, I know that, and he came direct from stud unbroken, so I doubt anyone had messed him up at the stud. You just don't believe that some horses can just act nuts from time to time for no reason at all, no matter how good their training has been, do you?

Have you ever come across a horse who after five years of hacking the same road will attempt to turn and run for home because last week the foxglove on the verge was full of purple flowers and this week the flowers are all gone? Do you seriously think that there is any training that will completely cure a horse as hypersensitive as that?

We have a difference of opinion here which we can never reconcile. You don't believe any horses like mine exist, or at least that they would not be that way "if only" they'd been trained properly from a baby. I know that they exist - he's out in my barn and someone else has his brother, poor girl. If you are ever in this country and want to meet the kind of horse you've never come across before, let me know!
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You're jumping to conclusions again. I use " around ''mentally unstable'' because I want it to mean more and other things than just the definition of the words, and to include those that are said to be mentally unstable without being it.

I've never said anything about looking or not looking like he's on drugs. Never said that he's in pain everytime the bit is used - once he lernt to obey it. Never said you're wrong to use the bit (since you don't use it instead of training).

I really don't know why you keep arguing with me.
 
I've read this with great interest as someone who has spent 10 years of her life with an opinionated diva of a mare and spent many days hanging off the end of a leadrope should she "get one on her" She can be a lovely well mannered butter wouldn't melt beast but likes to show her distaste by waving her front feet at you ! ..... So I'm thinking "Why the hell didn't I think of a chifney before " Because I haven't used one before maybe ?? So how does one become experienced in using a chifney ? all the comments re in the wrong hands etc are you referring to someone who has no experience at using one or really someone who is unsympathetic and heavy handed with one? Surely there comes a day when someone thinks "I can't cope with this animal right now next solution please" as for everyone that has posted positively towards the chiffney there must have been a first time you used it, so who showed you and would you mind explaining to us how exactly it should be used please.


.... I am now thinking the last 10 years of my life could have been a little easier during times of high spirits ! I have seen many chifneys used and never thought it looked cruel – honestly believe it is better for us to be safe on the ground and not have a horse on its back legs in the air ! I know loads of old wives tales to stop horses from rearing but not one thing that really works or we’d all be doing it (fluffy or not)

PS my horse does rear in a dually
 
I really dislike them, my horse started rearing in hand when coming in from the field last summer but I took and lunge line and whip instead and the problem was sorted. The damage that can be done, especially if the horse gets free with it on just is not worth the risk to me I would also worry about causing more issues.

I can understand in certain situations, each to their own I guess.
 
Zabby said:
You're jumping to conclusions again. I use " around ''mentally unstable'' because I want it to mean more and other things than just the definition of the words, and to include those that are said to be mentally unstable without being it.

I've never said anything about looking or not looking like he's on drugs. Never said that he's in pain everytime the bit is used - once he lernt to obey it. Never said you're wrong to use the bit (since you don't use it instead of training).

I really don't know why you keep arguing with me.
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Apologies, Zabby, I mistook you for another poster who told me he did not look drugged when he goes off on one. I also want to apologise for getting your name wrong in a post. It was a genuine mistake and not an attempt to be rude, though I will completely understand if no-one believes me on that.

I keep arguing with you because I find it a fascinating discussion every time it comes up, here or anywhere else - can people/horses be born bad or are they only ever made that way?

But if you don't want to discuss it, don't, that's fine.
 
cptrayes said:
Apologies, Zabby, I mistook you for another poster who told me he did not look drugged when he goes off on one. I also want to apologise for getting your name wrong in a post. It was a genuine mistake and not an attempt to be rude, though I will completely understand if no-one believes me on that.

I keep arguing with you because I find it a fascinating discussion every time it comes up, here or anywhere else - can people/horses be born bad or are they only ever made that way?

But if you don't want to discuss it, don't, that's fine.
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I, too am fascinated by the the theory, are some horses born bad? But what is bad and what is mad? I often think that if my mare were human she would be under sedation in a padded cell. She is a gentle soul, but lives on her nerves. The slightest change in environment will trigger an over reactive response. I deal with her in a very quiet, relaxed manner, something I have had to learn to do a I am naturally fiery and impatient. She has taught me so much and for that I am grateful.:)
 
cptrayes said:
Apologies, Zabby, I mistook you for another poster who told me he did not look drugged when he goes off on one. I also want to apologise for getting your name wrong in a post. It was a genuine mistake and not an attempt to be rude, though I will completely understand if no-one believes me on that.

I keep arguing with you because I find it a fascinating discussion every time it comes up, here or anywhere else - can people/horses be born bad or are they only ever made that way?

But if you don't want to discuss it, don't, that's fine.
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That's alright, and I assumed my name was a typo. :)

I believe horses and people alike, are born individuals. I find it obvious that some are kinder, have more or less compassion, more or less patiense, integrity etc and therefore will fit easier or harder into the frames and demands of the world around them. I believe that the surroundings can make these traits more or less of a problem, (through training or through changing the demands. A very calm dressage horse is bad if it keeps it from using any unecessary energy in the moves, a very calm trail horse for beginners is good. Trait became good instead of bad) and even though there are those that won't be comfortable in their situation (in a horses case, perhaps the only sitation they're really suited for is in a wild herd) I still believe that most can be adapted to function in most situations if they're treated the right way and have their needs looked after as well as possible. Your horse is - after your description - a proof of that if you will. He might still have his setbacks, but he has learnt to lead a somewhat normal life together with humans even though the traits he was born with isn't really ideal for that.

So in short, there are traits, good and bad for different things, mixed up in every being, but the surrounding world makes most of the shaping of these traits. You may never be able to completely remove the nerves of a nervous horse, but you can make the trait more or less active. By focusing on and rewarding other traits and needs of the horse, the nervousness will be pushed back only to be used in extreme situations or ''bad days''(from the horses point of view.) or if the horse gets more and more bad experiences it will get more and more nervous.

Then we have brain damage and diseases and that's trickier. Much harder to work with. I'm not going into those because frankly I know little about it. I know of a very nice horse getting cancer or some lump in the brain, pressing some nerves/tissue and it would suddenly and without warning start rearing, bucking and charging at people, just to calm down a minute later again.
 
blazingsaddles said:
I, too am fascinated by the the theory, are some horses born bad? But what is bad and what is mad? I often think that if my mare were human she would be under sedation in a padded cell. She is a gentle soul, but lives on her nerves. The slightest change in environment will trigger an over reactive response. I deal with her in a very quiet, relaxed manner, something I have had to learn to do a I am naturally fiery and impatient. She has taught me so much and for that I am grateful.:)
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I'm just wondering, have you also tried to de-sensitize her? :)
Crow's a somewhat nervous horse, especially when it comes to working. I think he just expect too much of himself and has a low confidense.. anyway, in the start I was careful not to move much around him, be quiet etc.. he got more and more nervous. I got the advice to just act normal and let him react on it but ignore his behaviour (of course staying away from any danger). Which made him calmer as he got used to me and appearantly me being careful and quiet just showed him there really was something dangerous to be quiet and careful around and that made him more nervous, as well as my signals and bodylanguage wasn't as steady and supportive as he needed.

It's much like a young horse exploding every time it feels the riders leg, once it has learnt that the leg will just be there and there's nothing to it, it can get nice and relaxed about it.

It's just a thought. :)
 
I dont think horses, or humans for that matter, are born bad.

BUT....

When i was younger i knew of 4 geldings by the same sire, all were tricky. The one i looked after was a lovey boy but could be very quick with his legs, he was normally very good with me (not to blow my own trumpet he just was), i went on holiday for a week and when i came back another groom was trying to boot him up (this was one of his "quirks") and he was being close to dangerous, i called his name very firmly and he stopped the behaviour, 1 of the other siblings that we knew was aggressive (he was beaten as a youngster) and you could NOT trust him in the stable, he wanted to hurt you, he did trust one of the other grooms and was like a baby with her. The other one was a nappy pig who scared his owner witless with his behaviour, he took some sorting. The other one would was a darling!!

All of the "quirks" came out because of the way the horses had been treated in their formative years, either being able to get away with too much or in the case of the aggressive one, being beaten.

All of them came good with good handling and riding though it was always in them.

This group are just an example, there have been many more in my career where you can see how the behaviour of the horses is directly affected by the way it is handled :)
 
Had to resort to one last winter when my gelding would get excited rush through the gate past me buck swing around and rear straight up - very dangerous - so bought a chifney and never a problem since - it hangs up unused all summer - he has manners to burn - its just the winter thing

Then had problem loading a 3yo old filly on to box - she been loaded since a foal I bred her so I know - ended up having to lightly sedate her and sit on the ramp with a bucket of feed

So today tried her again same thing, put on the chifney, she half pulled back once and loaded like an angel, she got fed on there and we went back and forth all day from then on with no problem - I hope this continues but without the chifney I think we would be having continuing problems from a habit learned in less than a day

Everything has its place in the right hands
 
Whilst a Chifney might not exactly be the "natural horsemanship" choice (:)) - quite often with a really strong or difficult horse they are the only solution, particularly if for instance you're on a crowded showground or having to lead on the road and that's the ONLY way you're gonna get some control/respect from the horse.

Mine is a plod 99% of the time but by god when he wants to be a fruitloop he does it mega big; and can rear, buck, and behave very dangerously - and basically if its MY safety involved then sod it I'll use a Chifney to get him under control and/or teach him some respect for me.

On Friday evening we did some groundwork - deliberately choosing a time when there were other people cantering their horses in the field outside the area where we were training. I had on a pressure halti and long rope, but no Chifney (stupidly). Predictably, he started fruitlooping around, and basically because he wasn't respecting the halti, managed to show me what he thought of me by aiming a very well placed kick - and got me right in the stomach :( Bleddy horse, but if I'd had the chifney on him I don't think he would have took the P!ss like he did.
 
Don't have huge experience with Chifneys but have used them in the past, mostly on very volatile horses brought into vet clinic. Personally I don't like them but they get a job done.

However I have seen people put a Chifney bit in and still get completely and dangerously 'walked over', so I don't see a Chifney as a 'wonder cure' either. Also another very powerful build draught horse is led in and out to field with Chifney and when he feels like it, doesn't take a blind bit of notice! So I defo believe general groundwork training is also very important.

I tend to use a bit with a stallion chain attached for difficult horses, works very well....so far!! I once had my eventer on a stud farm with ID, WB and TB stallions that did natural covering, never saw a Chifney on the stallions just a bit and stallion chain.

So all in all, Chifney bits can be completely ineffective in the wrong hands, a godsend in anothers. As far as them being dangerous is concerned, I'm not convinced a handler could break the jaw with it but if a horse was tied and had a major spaz of bolted off and stood on the rope then, yes possibly.
 
Nessa4 said:
I'm sure I've seen racehorses ridden in them.
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They aren't chifney's you are seeing - they are called Dextors or ring bits. It's kind of like a small eggbut/half spoon snaffle with a big ring attached to it that goes in the mouth and out the back. It gives you better control and steering.
 
Never had to use one! I don't really know how they work, is the pressure released when there's no direct pressure on the bit?

I did used to have a horse who was, well, a bit crazy, and I won't pretend for a moment he was well trained, because he wasn't, he was a delinquent :p But we used a dually halter or cavesson with a snaffle on him when we knew he'd be difficult (box rest etc) so they are probably quite a good in between step.
 
I see nothing wrong with using a chiffney if your horse needs it - better than them getting free, especially on busy roads/show grounds with lots of people etc. Personally, I use a stallion chain that goes under the chin/over the nose (depending on the horse) for horses that are bolshy to handle, works very well and they know they have it on, so barely need it to come into action, but I've never dealt with an on-the-ground rearer that wasn't rearing because of something specific like loading etc... in that situation, I might try a chiffney.
 
for clarity, chifney:
chifney-bit-X596.jpg

Dexter ring bit:
SOAKEFARMLOWRES216.jpg_dexter_ring_racing_bit_code_221.jpg


As others have said the latter are a very effective bit for ridden purposes, although I have seldom seen them outside of racing. I wouldn't advocate riding in a chifney.
 
We used one on Louis when we started rearing up whilst trying to load. Used it a couple of times and now he doesn't need it anymore, loads straight away in a headcollar now, at one point he was rearing and striking out at people, in what ever direction he felt..not very nice! so I think if used correctly they are very useful,he only had to put it on and feel the pressure to not try again.
 
cptrayes said:
Yes I thought you weren't reading what I was writing. So I will ask the question again.

The horse is genetically programmed to be extremely over emotional and over reactive. His father is himself described as "quirky" and throws stock with similar traits to my own.

I have spent five years improving his behaviour beyond recognition in the face of my friends questionning why I continue with him at all. He will now stay in a stable rather than climb the door. He will travel quietly as opposed to taking out the windows. He will hack out past hens that he used to insist were going to kill him. He will follow me anywhere and he cries if I leave him. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

He throws separation anxiety behaviour on loading roughly once every three months. I handle him mainly completely naked (him not me :) ) most of the time and the rest in a headcollar and lead rope if we are going somewhere. The separation anxiety can occur with horses that he has only seen in a collecting ring and has no relationship with, but who he suddenly decides he is not prepared to leave.

You are so insistent that I should not need a chifney for him if only I had him properly trained. How would you retrain this horse not to need a chifney on that one time in three months?
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Genuine question, why is this stallion being used as a breeding horse (your horses sire) if his offspring take on such serious personality 'traits' just for a use of word? Surely a horse should only be used to breed judged on being a very good example of its breed and that means temperament/ trainability too? A few small quirks you could understand but climbing stable doors, acting dangerous when travelling and appearing to be on drugs is surely not a trait you want in any horse.
 
risky business said:
Genuine question, why is this stallion being used as a breeding horse (your horses sire) if his offspring take on such serious personality 'traits' just for a use of word? Surely a horse should only be used to breed judged on being a very good example of its breed and that means temperament/ trainability too? A few small quirks you could understand but climbing stable doors, acting dangerous when travelling and appearing to be on drugs is surely not a trait you want in any horse.
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Probally because it could run fast ( TB ) or jump very high or piaffe as easily as it breaths
In particularily the TB performance is what people are after in a stallion.
 
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