What can you see?

[Sukistokes2]

First off the pictures on here have been sent to my vet and the horse is being seen tomorrow, I have spoken to a vet this morning and I am shortly taking more pictures with the horse standing square.

This post will take a while to complete as I'm on my iPad and it very slow

This is a picture of my horse, Kevin taken before Christmas. He was being ridden three times a week, in what I would call light work.



This is a picture of Kevin taken yesterday.



The saddler was concerned about a hard lump on his side at the back of the ribs. It's not showing on the other side. The horse has also lost condition and seemed not himself. The horse is in less work and being fed roughly the same amount and is on grass as well.



Has anyone seen anything like this before?

 

[cobgoblin]

What does it feel like? Is it hard and bony..does it bother him?

From the photo it looks like the last ribs...perhaps showing because of loss of condition or some sort of swelling over them.

 

[scats]

I think I can still see it on the top picture though, just less prominent?

 

[FfionWinnie]

The way he's stood in the first pic could be hiding it, in the second his hind is stretched back which will make it easier to see, I think.

 

[be positive]

I think I can still see it on the top picture though, just less prominent?

I think it is there but he is carrying more condition and standing with the hind leg under him so not so obvious.

Did the vet not notice it when he was checked?

 

[Pinkvboots]

I can see the lump but he also has quite bad muscle wastage in front of the shoulder due to a too narrow saddle, when a horse has been wearing a tight saddle it can change there whole way of going and they tend to start loosing muscle and condition all over very much the same as him.

 

[chillipup]

Could the lump be some kind of injury to the floating rib(s) or be a form of floating rib syndrome? Not sure if this can happen in equines though.

 

[Sukistokes2]

I can see the lump but he also has quite bad muscle wastage in front of the shoulder due to a too narrow saddle, when a horse has been wearing a tight saddle it can change there whole way of going and they tend to start loosing muscle and condition all over very much the same as him.

Actually that's his good side, you should see the other side !
He is currently seeing the saddler monthly, he arrived like that.

 

[Damnation]

1) What a lovely boy, just my type.

2) I can see the lump in the 1st picture but less prominent.

 

[Sukistokes2]

What does it feel like? Is it hard and bony..does it bother him?

From the photo it looks like the last ribs...perhaps showing because of loss of condition or some sort of swelling over them.

It feels hard, he doesn't seem to like it touched.
Yes I can see it in the first picture too and in a number of earlier ones, as far as the middle of last year. But much less prominent. Could be something or nothing , will show it to the vet tomorrow.

 

[Goldenstar]

It looks like a rib injury or an intercostal muscle I can't remember exactly what's going on up there .I am going to get my book out later and have a think .
He also has very very weak abdominal muscles ( based on a photo not I know the best way to judge )
What's his canter like ?

 

[cobgoblin]

I may be imagining this but having looked at the pic again, he looks a bit humped over the loins?

 

[Pinkvboots]

Actually that's his good side, you should see the other side !
He is currently seeing the saddler monthly, he arrived like that.

what width saddle is he in?

have you ever heard of lavinia mitchell? she is a remedial saddle fitter and makes her own they come up incredibly wide more so than your average saddle, for a horse with wastage she will fit a too wide saddle then shim it to make it fit while helping the muscle to return. I have one of her saddles for one of my horses who also had muscle wastage it was the best thing I ever did for him his a different horse now.

This alone could be why your horse has been having problems when ridden having a too tight saddle is very painful and can damage the nerves.

 

[AdorableAlice]

You can see a vague lumpiness in the first picture. He doesn't look 'well' in the second picture, his skin isn't great but this time of year isn't always easy on horses, he looks winter tired.

I so hope you get some answers, he is a lucky lad to be in your hands.

 

[ycbm]

Has anyone considered EPSM/PSSM for the loss of muscle? Vitamin E can be very low in winter and that could make it a lot worse.

I can't help with the ribs, but I'd be guessing an injury which has resulted in inflammation or even new bone formation.

I hope dear Kevin gets an answer tomorrow.

 

[horselady]

Can't comment on what it might be but Kevin is lovely. Try not to worry or think about it today and wait for the vet to come tomorrow. He looks a really amazing horse so don't worry about the lump tonight just give him a groom if he likes it or hang out with him. Hopefully the vet will give you an answer.

 

[foxy1]

I'd echo what has been said re muscle wastage behind the wither; he needs a wider saddle, padded out if necessary until he builds some muscle along his top line.

 

[Taliesan]

The bulge behind his rib is odd - more prominent in the recent picture but still visible in the older picture. I hope the vet can give you some answers tomorrow - Kevin is such a lovely horse and very lucky to have you looking after him.

I agree with others about the muscle wastage. It is less obvious in the older picture but still there. It was the thing that struck me as more orbious in the newer picture, that and he looks a bit more ribby than in the first photo.

Maybe you could ask your saddler about why the muscle wastage around his withers has not improved / perhaps gotten worse over the past few months? (It is hard to tell if it has got worse or stayed the same through one photo.) Lavina Mitchell saddles are good - as are BALANCE saddles (Lavina used to work for BALANCE before heading off and doing her own thing.) Their saddles are designed to be extra wide with padding to help support the horse. Excellent at helping to bring muscle back, with correct work of course, as the saddle design gives somewhere for the muscle to develop as there is no solid tree getting in the way. Even if you don't get one of their saddles they have loads of useful information on their website about why they do things the way they do - it is all very informative.

 

[Goldenstar]

His abdominal muscles are very weak horse who use their cores badly don't develop great top line .
He's a draught not bred for the canter they often struggle to develop a strong core ( canter being the pace where horse most easily use their core muscles ) .
Add to that that Clydesdales are bred to be narrow in the base and thus tend to be cow hocked in fact when they show them they trim their feet to make it even more noticeable these horse don't get proper riding horse top line easily , crests yes strong backs not necessarily .
I just post this to say their are other things that can drive a back being that shape not just saddles .

 

[SEL]

I see a draft horse who has dropped over the winter. I own one who has done exactly the same (despite the vast volumes of feed I give him) and the vet has given the 'ok' to just today.

I don't really ride M now due to his advanced ringbone, but he has a prolite pad under his saddle as he also has muscle wastage behind the withers. I've got photos from when he was a vaulting horse in the circus in his youth and he looked pretty much the same then. His design is all neck and shoulders.

 

[Sukistokes2]

1) What a lovely boy, just my type.

2) I can see the lump in the 1st picture but less prominent.

Thank you, up until this year he has been a total star.

 

[Sukistokes2]

what width saddle is he in?

have you ever heard of lavinia mitchell? she is a remedial saddle fitter and makes her own they come up incredibly wide more so than your average saddle, for a horse with wastage she will fit a too wide saddle then shim it to make it fit while helping the muscle to return. I have one of her saddles for one of my horses who also had muscle wastage it was the best thing I ever did for him his a different horse now.

This alone could be why your horse has been having problems when ridden having a too tight saddle is very painful and can damage the nerves.

Pinky, he was ridden in to tight a saddle before I got him. He is now fitted in a wide saddle and padded to fit. I have a really good remedial saddle fitter who works with vets. The saddle is not to tight. It is fitted so even with my weight on you can get you hand to slide under the front panels. His top line and saddle area has improved greatly. What ever the cross was with the Clydesdale he is not as wide as your full Clyde and he does have quite a pronounced whither. I'm pretty good at fitting myself and I'm happy with the saddle at this time. My saddler has been doing that very thing allowing him to develop, I've seen him so much I actually thought we might be married. ( or might have well been)
I appreciate your concern and you are very right in what your saying but I hunt for good professional help to start with and then allow them to do their job.

 

[Sukistokes2]

It looks like a rib injury or an intercostal muscle I can't remember exactly what's going on up there .I am going to get my book out later and have a think .
He also has very very weak abdominal muscles ( based on a photo not I know the best way to judge )
What's his canter like ?

Quite dreadful , but then all his paces were to start with, I've been bringing him on slowly, with my instructor and the improvement has been large. Hacking, his canter in a straight line is fine, in the school dodgy , right rein is coming along, left rein much harder, often goes on the wrong leg, will attempt to trot as fast as he can but we had start to make progress. It's on the left rein he boggs off by the way. He is under developed on the left side, he had the worst hook on his teeth ,you could imagine when I first had him seen to. I'm sure he has been going crooked to avoid that for sometime.

However for all of his issues his beautiful temperament has shone through and he has tried his heart out for me.

 

[Sukistokes2]

His abdominal muscles are very weak horse who use their cores badly don't develop great top line .
He's a draught not bred for the canter they often struggle to develop a strong core ( canter being the pace where horse most easily use their core muscles ) .
Add to that that Clydesdales are bred to be narrow in the base and thus tend to be cow hocked in fact when they show them they trim their feet to make it even more noticeable these horse don't get proper riding horse top line easily , crests yes strong backs not necessarily .
I just post this to say their are other things that can drive a back being that shape not just saddles .

Oh golden star he is so beautifully cowhocked

 

[Goldenstar]

The canter with these type of horses is always hard and canter is very key to the horses developing strength in the ridden horse .
I also think when these big horses get not straight they get very not straight everything is so big it's just harder to develop or redevelop if it's gone wrong .
I will be very interested to hear what the vet thinks about that lumpy bit .

 

[LD&S]

No advice I'm afraid but I hope whatever news you get tomorrow isn't too bad and can be easily fixed, good luck.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Pinky, he was ridden in to tight a saddle before I got him. He is now fitted in a wide saddle and padded to fit. I have a really good remedial saddle fitter who works with vets. The saddle is not to tight. It is fitted so even with my weight on you can get you hand to slide under the front panels. His top line and saddle area has improved greatly. What ever the cross was with the Clydesdale he is not as wide as your full Clyde and he does have quite a pronounced whither. I'm pretty good at fitting myself and I'm happy with the saddle at this time. My saddler has been doing that very thing allowing him to develop, I've seen him so much I actually thought we might be married. ( or might have well been)
I appreciate your concern and you are very right in what your saying but I hunt for good professional help to start with and then allow them to do their job.

fair enough I wasn't implying you had no knowledge I just know some fitters have no idea how to fit wide horses or those with damage, 2 saddle fitters tried to fit my horse into a medium width saddle he now wears an extra wide!

he doesn't look very well in the recent picture it may just be his come out of winter a bit thinner or unfortunately he may be getting pain somewhere hence your problems when his ridden, I know you have the vet coming and I really hope it's nothing too nasty and they can put him right for you please keep us updated I will be thinking of you and keeping fingers crossed x

 

[Leo Walker]

The first pic, minus lump looks very like Leo when he first arrived. Weak behind and generally poor. Hes gotten dramatically better with similar management, decent saddle, teeth, chiro vet etc and hes gained a reasonable amount of muscle. Hes also on an ulcer friendly diet as that was something else I was worried about. Leo has improved massively and is beautifully forward and doesnt seem to get tight muscles but hes still got a minor question mark for me about PSSM. Hes had vitamin E supplementation and I didnt see any difference and that alongside the huge improvement has let me pretty much rule it out, but I'm still monitoring him. I think it has to be worth testing for though. I'm sure FW had a potential horse blood tested to see if there were any muscle myopathies going on.

I'd think by this point with all the checks, correct work and a decent saddle that you should have seen an improvement. Hopefully whatever the issue is, its something easily found and treated.

 

[DabDab]

The canter with these type of horses is always hard and canter is very key to the horses developing strength in the ridden horse .
I also think when these big horses get not straight they get very not straight everything is so big it's just harder to develop or redevelop if it's gone wrong .
I will be very interested to hear what the vet thinks about that lumpy bit .

I agree, if you are unlucky with the draughty disparity between neck/shoulder and back end/core, then it can take years to get to the point where they are easy to school, particularly in canter - and that's with a good start and consistent riding and fittening work throughout.

As for the lump - if it was only on one side I would guess maybe a 19th rib....it's definitely interesting, and not just because I don't know what it is, but because it is very familiar, but I can't for the life of me think where from.....please let us know what the vet says. Good luck today.

 

[southerncomfort]

Could it be calcification on the last the last rib due to a previous injury? A friend of mine has just this on one of her ribs and it does occasionally ache (I know that doesn't make sense but she swears it does hurt sometimes).

Good luck with the vet today, really hope you get to the bottom of what's going on with him.