What could be wrong with this mare? Thinking caps on!

Wagtail said:
Yes, but found nothing. Though there were a number of large follicles. Vet said it was just that she was ready to ovulate.
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A number? How many? It would be unusual for a mare to have more than two LARGE follicles at point of ovulation. In fact even 2 is unusual - twins usually result from a second smaller follicle coming up and ovulating a day or two after the first, while there are still live sperm hanging around!

Was the vet who scanned her a repro specialist?? Some vets are totally useless at repro scanning.
 
Wagtail said:
I was wondering if they had been caused when she was starved, but the symptoms started around 14 months after that. We are going to ask the vet when she comes out next week for her 'progress' check. Poor mare, she is such a lovely natured horse. We know she is in pain but having so many vets think it is behavioural is so frustrating! At least this latest vet seems to take us seriously.
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The mare YorksG posted about had been starved as a youngster and then fed up quite quickly but a well-meaning but not very knowledgeable new owner. We think that this was at least partly the cause of her problems.
 
JanetGeorge said:
A number? How many? It would be unusual for a mare to have more than two LARGE follicles at point of ovulation. In fact even 2 is unusual - twins usually result from a second smaller follicle coming up and ovulating a day or two after the first, while there are still live sperm hanging around!

Was the vet who scanned her a repro specialist?? Some vets are totally useless at repro scanning.
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I could see a few small dark spots on the scan and two were quite large, one around a third bigger than the second largest. Yes, the vet is an AI specialist. I don't know what I was looking at as it was the first ovary scan I've seen. He pointed to the largest follicle and said that was ready to go right away. He said if 'I was scanning her for breeding I'd be sending her to the stallion right now'. He gave her an injection to make her ovulate but she was still in season a week later!
 
Ulcers sprung to mind here too :) I also had a horse once who displayed similar (but not as severe) characteristics and it was a spleen issue, although, just to be extra helpful, I can't remember exactly what :(

J&C
 
Pearlsasinger said:
The mare YorksG posted about had been starved as a youngster and then fed up quite quickly but a well-meaning but not very knowledgeable new owner. We think that this was at least partly the cause of her problems.
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She came to me in good shape as she had been on the summer grazing after she had been starved during the winter. I have never given her very much hard feed, just a half scoop of hi fibre nuts a day in the summer and alpha a and high fibre nuts in the winter (scoop of alpha A and half a scoop of nuts).
 
JessandCharlie said:
Ulcers sprung to mind here too :) I also had a horse once who displayed similar (but not as severe) characteristics and it was a spleen issue, although, just to be extra helpful, I can't remember exactly what :(

J&C
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I think it is definitely an issue somewhere in her abdomen, either ulcers or ovaries or some problem with liver or spleen. It just looks as though she is holdng herself so as not to aggravate the pain. But only when ridden. I have thought kissing spine too, but AHT did xray her spine.
 
Actually from the sounds of it I'd be surprised if there weren't ulcers there at some level, but they may not be the root cause, but more a symptom of something more stressfull causing them.

If you are willing to have a full work up, then def an ulcer scope, but how about a blood test to look at possible muscle damage....by looking at raised enzyme levels, that sort of thing?
 
Wagtail said:
He pointed to the largest follicle and said that was ready to go right away. He said if 'I was scanning her for breeding I'd be sending her to the stallion right now'. He gave her an injection to make her ovulate but she was still in season a week later!
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That would suggest haemorrhagic follicles to me. Some mares are very prone. With a BIG follicle AND a jab to make her ovulate (probably Chorulon) she should have ovulated and gone out in no more than 2 days.

Sometimes a haemorrhagic follicle can hang around for weeks - or even months. They can get very big - and painful!

Have her seasons been pretty regular since??
 
YorksG said:
I would try forage only diet for a month, no chaff, no molasses, no sugar beet, no nothing! And certainly no alfalfa. We had a mare, who was beautiful a good mover and soft as butter, however if she had sugar or grain she became dangerous, developed a cough and came up short on one back leg. If her diet was strictly adhered to she was fine (sadly she had to be retired as we could not stop people walking in nearby fields from feeding her, no matter what we did!)
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I have just got up to this post and haven't read any further so I do apologise if more has been added to this point. But I also have a mare very similar and this made the difference between her still being with us and not!
 
Funny that when she seems so obviously to have a problem with her overies they havnt been investigated further. So often its the simplistic and obvios that gives us the answers we are looking for.
 
JanetGeorge said:
That would suggest haemorrhagic follicles to me. Some mares are very prone. With a BIG follicle AND a jab to make her ovulate (probably Chorulon) she should have ovulated and gone out in no more than 2 days.

Sometimes a haemorrhagic follicle can hang around for weeks - or even months. They can get very big - and painful!

Have her seasons been pretty regular since??
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Thank you. That is well worth investigating. She is not constantly in season now but she DOES seem to be in season more often than not and started again in December.
 
I would start keeping a diary. Note when she comes in, when she appears to have gone out - and - if you're riding her, note which days she seems ok - and which days she seems 'not right'!

If you're taking her to be scanned, I'd aim for 10 days after she comes into season (so once she SHOULD have ovulated and gone out!)
 
I will start keeping a diary. She is never okay to ride though. Her pain seems constant when a rider is on her. In the meantime I will change her diet to all forage. Thanks everyone!
 
Sounds a bit like what I've been through with my mare. I had everything checked, back, ovaries etc. She was always worse at the end of every winter/ start of spring. This made me think it was something to do with her seasons.

I think because it's a mare we automatically think hormones.

Turns out it was ulcers.
 
bordermare said:
Sounds a bit like what I've been through with my mare. I had everything checked, back, ovaries etc. She was always worse at the end of every winter/ start of spring. This made me think it was something to do with her seasons.

I think because it's a mare we automatically think hormones.

Turns out it was ulcers.
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It's such a shame they can't talk, isn't it? Because AHT didn't find anything wrong with the mare, the insurance refused to pay for Rossdales or any treatment so far. It has cost the owner around £2000. If it turns out to be ulcers, I think the insurance will pay though (hopefully).

Makes sense I suppose with ulcers as during the summer, horses have more fibre due to the grass and in the winter, more hard feed.
 
Wagtail said:
I think it is definitely an issue somewhere in her abdomen, either ulcers or ovaries or some problem with liver or spleen. It just looks as though she is holdng herself so as not to aggravate the pain. But only when ridden. I have thought kissing spine too, but AHT did xray her spine.
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Does she try to kick at her stomach, or object to leg aids under saddle? That's what mine did when she had spleen problems.
:( Really do hope you get to the bottom of it, can't be much fun for any of you. Keep us posted :)

J&C
 
JessandCharlie said:
Does she try to kick at her stomach, or object to leg aids under saddle? That's what mine did when she had spleen problems.
:( Really do hope you get to the bottom of it, can't be much fun for any of you. Keep us posted :)

J&C
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She is definitely worse when you put the leg on. The one day that I really pushed her, because the vet insisted it was behavioural, resulted in her rearing vertical and spinning round. She nearly fell over backwards. I don't know how she managed to come back down with me still on her! It was so out of character for her to do such a thing. She has never reared or bucked in the 4 years her owner's had her. She tries to tell us gently that things hurt. Ears are back, eyes look worried and se keeps swinging her head around to look at her side. She refuses to move forwards, swishes her tail and moving her quarters around rather than going forwards. Only if you really push her does she start to kick out.
 
It certainly did in one of mine. He was starved as a 4 year old and his system never recovered properly. He had liver problems from having loose droppings for a year and he also had ulcers which the vet suspects were caused by the starvation. It also affected him mentally, when he first came as soon as you gave him water he would drink the whole bucket, he could never leave anything he was given in case he didn't get anymore for days.

Have you had a blood test? It could be that she is tying up but only very slightly and her muscle enzymes are wrong?
 
Doormouse said:
It certainly did in one of mine. He was starved as a 4 year old and his system never recovered properly. He had liver problems from having loose droppings for a year and he also had ulcers which the vet suspects were caused by the starvation. It also affected him mentally, when he first came as soon as you gave him water he would drink the whole bucket, he could never leave anything he was given in case he didn't get anymore for days.

Have you had a blood test? It could be that she is tying up but only very slightly and her muscle enzymes are wrong?
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The vet is coming out to see her ridden on Tuesday and we will go from there. It is time to get her fully investigated. She did have a liver enzyme test when it first started a year ago and that was fine. I think she needs scoping, and a full scan of her liver and spleen and also her hormones and ovaries need further investigation. If all comes back fine then I think her owner will pay for a bone scan.
 
Wagtail said:
The vet is coming out to see her ridden on Tuesday and we will go from there. It is time to get her fully investigated. She did have a liver enzyme test when it first started a year ago and that was fine. I think she needs scoping, and a full scan of her liver and spleen and also her hormones and ovaries need further investigation. If all comes back fine then I think her owner will pay for a bone scan.
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That sounds like a good plan, if they haven't picked up anything from leg or back trouble it does sound like an internal problem. I have found from experience that just one imbalance somewhere in their system can throw the whole thing out and result in all sorts of strange symptoms.

Good luck with her and I hope you get it sorted.
 
ulcers all the way

my mare has just been diagnosed with ulcers and was showing exsactly the same symtoms as your mare looking at stomach when riding very swishy tail and just genrally not happy about being ridden was a tiny bit more stroppy in stable she is a very dominant mare and very seasonal but this just wasnt the same as normal so i chose ulcers to investigate first if not then scan ovaries it turned out to be ulcers!


she is now changed for the better on just 5 days of her months course of gastrogaurd.

good luck
 
Wagtail said:
Long story so will try to be brief. Beautiful 8 year old WB mare. Top European bloodlines. Fabulous paces, enthusiastic but very sane ride. Just a dream horse really. All went wrong a year ago when suddenly she started to act as though she was in pain. Tail swishing, bunching up in a false outline when normally she was very through and quite strong, and the strangest thing, looking round at her left flank like horses do with colic. Got the vet as so out of character. No lameness found. Thought it was behavioural, but no amount of strong riding would help, and she felt as though she would explode. In fact, she reared with me and almost fell over backwards.

Vet referred her owner to Sue Dyson at AHT Newmarket, who found no lameness but saw the behaviour when I rode her. We left her there a week and nothing was found to be wrong with her and did full xrays including spine. The staff there rode her and reported no problems, but her owner said it was obvious she was not working properly and was holding herself in the bunched up false outline. Had her back home and no improvement so she went to Rossdales who found bone spavin (missed by AHT), but such a small amount that it really should not cause a problem. The flexion tests were negative too. But they injected her with cortisteroids and she actually came right around 3 weeks later, back to her old self. However, it only lasted 4 months and the symptoms started again. She was fine being lunged, though I don’t think that she is stepping under and showing such floaty paces as she used to, but as soon as her owner or I get on she is back to looking at her flanks and refusing to go forward. When she does walk she holds herself all bunched up and her neck really arched with no contact at all. It feels as though you are riding a headless horse! She was injected again but this time it took over 4 weeks to work and only worked for 2 months. She has also had tildren, but seems to be getting worse and worse. It is not nappiness as we have checked this by having a horse that she is totally in love with walk ahead of her and she is exactly the same. All her tack has been checked, teeth done, overies scanned. I still suspect overies though as she is constantly in season and regumate appears to have no effect. I wonder if the hock thing was a red herring as it all points to a problem further up to me.

Any ideas, anyone?
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Ovaries.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/110700.htm&hide=1
 
Id definately go with ovaries my friends mare had problems very similar blood tests the lot scanned everything but they couldnt find anything... then a specialist noticed a very slight shadow on scan opened her up and she had a cist the size of a large sweed on her ovary....It was removed and everything ok now maybe even the chance to have a foal by AI...hope everything gets sorted for you.
 
Timmy100 said:
Id definately go with ovaries my friends mare had problems very similar blood tests the lot scanned everything but they couldnt find anything... then a specialist noticed a very slight shadow on scan opened her up and she had a cist the size of a large sweed on her ovary....It was removed and everything ok now maybe even the chance to have a foal by AI...hope everything gets sorted for you.
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This sounds exactly what happened to my friend's mare, she objected violently when asked to canter, but only when you put your right leg on. She also had a strange looking muscle mass on her right side just behind the saddle area (this was due to her 'holding' herself to escape pain. Initial scans etc showed nothing, nor did blood tests and the symptons persisted. Eventually a blood test was sent off to America (only place this particular test was available apparently) and this came back positive for a tumour, the mare is now back to normal, albeit with one ovary missing :)
 
Thanks so much. This has all been extremely helpful to me. I will have a chat with the vet next week and push for more tests on her ovaries as well as getting her scoped.
 
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