What do people think of this noseband?

Dusty85

Dusty85

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 February 2013
Messages
1,931
Location
Wiltshire
Visit site
Im just wondering what people think of this noseband/position?

I have no intention of criticising who it belongs to, Ive tried to make it anonymous. I just saw it, and my first thought was that it seemed too low and I would have hoped someone would have picked up on it?

But, it may well just be my ignorance and maybe others think its perfectly normal on a strong horse?


Im genuinely interested in peoples responses.

noseband_zps9ynlubk9.jpg


I'll say it again, its not meant to offend.

Thanks.
 
Way way too low. They did a study of the nasal bones of (dead) horses ridden bitless and a surprising percentage had fractures (I think the study said 20%). If the nose and is even slightly too low it's very easy to fracture the bone, or even if not fracture it, cause extreme pain.

ETA - I've ridden with a hackamore before but would never use a cavesson with it as it stops it sitting in the right place.

Can't make the picture work :(

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...d=0CCsQMygPMA9qFQoTCNvX8fD8iMkCFYLsFAodwwsGcw
 
Last edited:
That is fitted wrongly - no ifs or buts.

If you look at a horse's skull you can see where the bone near the nose becomes thin and weak at the end. A hackamore should be fitted over strong bone, therefore it must be higher than in that photo. You can easily feel where the bone is, so they really aren't hard to get right. The non-hackamore noseband would ideally need to go to allow the hackamore to be placed in the correct position.

tumblr_lk9wpcFNw41qbclmp.jpg
 
EQUIDAE said:
Way way too low. They did a study of the nasal bones of (dead) horses ridden bitless and a surprising percentage had fractures (I think the study said 20%). If the nose and is even slightly too low it's very easy to fracture the bone, or even if not fracture it, cause extreme pain.

ETA - I've ridden with a hackamore before but would never use a cavesson with it as it stops it sitting in the right place.

Can't make the picture work :(

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...d=0CCsQMygPMA9qFQoTCNvX8fD8iMkCFYLsFAodwwsGcw
Click to expand...

Do you remember the name of the study, would be interested to read it. Considering the photo above not surprised about the fractures!
 
That picture makes me feel queasy, if this is at a competition how on earth was the rider not pulled up? The hackamore is fitted far too low, anyone with an ounce of horse sense could see that. Must be incredibly painful/uncomfortable for the poor horse.
 
It was at a competition (SJ, don't know if unaff or BS).

What was more surprising to me, is that this horse is for sale, and from a dealer who I've always thought of as reputable. Not to suggest they aren't, but just that I would have hoped they knew better, let alone use these pics in the ad.
 
Definitely FAR too low and tbh in danger of causing damage with where it's sat. Correct me if I'm wrong but my belief is that the noseband on a hackamore should actually sit higher than a caveson specifically for the reason of avoiding it interfering with breathing hence specific bitless / hackamore bridles having shorter cheekpieces than a flash or caveson
 
It's not too low, it's too LOOSE

The metal piece is sitting exactly right, but the nose and chin strap are so loose that it has been allowed to drop over the nose far too low and is restricting the breathing. The straps should be tighter.
 
C
ycbm said:
It's not too low, it's too LOOSE

The metal piece is sitting exactly right, but the nose and chin strap are so loose that it has been allowed to drop over the nose far too low and is restricting the breathing. The straps should be tighter.
Click to expand...

It is too low - the metal part should sit just below the cheek bone, resulting in the rein part being level (ish) with the start of the mouth. That is about 2 inches (maybe 3) too low.

But you're right - it is also too loose which is allowing it to rotate.
 
Last edited:
EQUIDAE said:
It is too low - the metal part should sit just below the cheek bone. That is about 2 inches (maybe 3) too low.

But you're right - it is also too loose which is allowing It to rotate.
Click to expand...

It's fitted exactly where I fit mine, but with shorter nose and chin strap. I was always taught the metal part should pretty much replicate where a bit sits, which was the point of an English hackamore, it looks like a bit.
 
ycbm said:
It's fitted exactly where I fit mine, but with shorter nose and chin strap. I was always taught the metal part should pretty much replicate where a bit sits, which was the point of an English hackamore, it looks like a bit.
Click to expand...

If you do that you risk fracturing the nasal bone.

I can't seem to make the images work...

A skull

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...d=0CEIQMygcMBxqFQoTCM77moa0ickCFUtrFAodHN0Byw

And one fitted correctly so as not to risk fractures.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...d=0CCAQMygCMAJqFQoTCM_cyJazickCFYs9GgodDQEJYQ
 
Last edited:
ycbm said:
It's fitted exactly where I fit mine, but with shorter nose and chin strap. I was always taught the metal part should pretty much replicate where a bit sits, which was the point of an English hackamore, it looks like a bit.
Click to expand...

I disagree and with equidae re the height of fitting.
 
ycbm said:
No, you don't. The nose and chin straps should be two finger snug, no possibility of nasal bone fracture. It was hackamore bit designed to look like m mouth bit, back in my day (the ark).
Click to expand...

The fracture risk isn't due to the tightness of the straps but due to the pressure on the front of the nose when you pull back on the reins, and the 'lever' action comes into play. Put two fingers under the top of the noseband and have someone apply the 'breaks' from on board - it is some pressure that is exerted.

When you talk of "too loose, too little control" - the control comes from the pressure on the nasal bone. With the position you recommend the control comes from pain, not pressure.
 
Last edited:
EQUIDAE said:
The fracture risk isn't due to the tightness of the straps but due to the pressure on the front of the nose when you pull back on the reins, and the 'lever' action comes into play. Put two fingerbecause the strap s under the top of the noseband and have someone apply the 'breaks' from on board - it is some pressure that is exerted.

When you talk of "too loose, too little control" - the control comes from the pressure on the nasal bone. With the position you recommend the control comes from pain, not pressure.
Click to expand...

A bit is only as severe as the hands on the end of the reins. Control does not mean pain.

The fracture risk is from the height of the nose and bottom piece, which is as much related to the length of the straps as it is to the height of the metal side piece. Tighter straps equals less drop equals no fracture risk because the strap stays on a thicker piece of bone.

Lower and tighter gives a much more precise level of control, with no risk of damage to the horse except in the hands of someone who should not be using an English hackamore, which is in no way a 'mild' arrangement in the wrong hands.
 
Last edited:
ycbm said:
A bit is only as severe as the hands on the end of the reins. Control does not mean pain.
Click to expand...

Actually with the nasal bone it can. Have a look at the nerve map of the face and the bone structure of the scull. You can break the nasal bone very easily - horse slipping and reaching forwards to balance, over jumping and the rider not releasing etc. with a bit it might hurt, but it is highly unlikely the bone will break. With an incorrectly fitted hackamore there is a very good chance the bone would be fractured.

In the study (I believe commissioned by Dr Cook when developing their bitless system) they xrayed horses that had no prior issues - in those (?) 20% of cases the owner had no idea they had fractured their horses nose. There were some horses with multiple fractures.

Also have a look at this nerve map - an incorrectly fitted hackamore would sit directly on a nasal nerve.

53081471efd11524d62ffcf0af4af660.jpg


Edited to comment on your edit. You say that having it tighter keeps it on the thicker part of the bone. But your positioning doesn't - have a look at the anatomy of the head. Having it that low puts in on the thin projection and the fracture X-ray study proves it. The owners thought they were doing nothing wrong, they didn't know they had injured their horse, we learned as a result of it.

I've given you evidence to back up my claim, yet you haven't done the same. What you have stated simply contradicts itself as it doesn't fit with equine anatomy.
 
Last edited:
Probably one of the most mis-understood pieces of kit out there. I hate seeing a hackamore used as a handbrake - they are designed to be ridden with rein weight only and when used correctly are a great way to ride.
 
It looks to me as though a rider having difficulty has removed their snaffle bit and put a borrowed hackamore on their bride with no attempt to fit it.
 
Thats definitely so so low and extremely uncomfortable for the poor horse. Sad...

I'm actually currently collecting research about nosebands and how other riders view their own practices with bridles for my dissertation. If anyone has a spare second it would be a great help to fill out the survey!
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/WFWXYPG

I genuinely think this is such an important area to be researched because it is SO interconnected with welfare!! And so many people are quite unsure about the scientific and medical research behind so much of our tack... I really think its an important cause and if anyone could help that would be amazing!

I'll be following this thread closely, interesting to read others views..
 
Dusty85 said:
Im just wondering what people think of this noseband/position?

I have no intention of criticising who it belongs to, Ive tried to make it anonymous. I just saw it, and my first thought was that it seemed too low and I would have hoped someone would have picked up on it?

But, it may well just be my ignorance and maybe others think its perfectly normal on a strong horse?


Im genuinely interested in peoples responses.

noseband_zps9ynlubk9.jpg


I'll say it again, its not meant to offend.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
it is in English hackamore and it's too low and is also got a flash noseband with it why??

Has anyone else noticed it has a flash noseband on too? Without the bottom strap??
 
Last edited:
HGA-12 said:
Has anyone else noticed it has a flash noseband on too? Without the bottom strap??
Click to expand...

Which turns it into a plain caveson...

Either way it is too low. I am going to attempt to ride one of my racers in a hacakmore tomorrow but I will pop a wee snaffle on underneath and ride with two reins incase the hacakmore majorly fails then at least I will still have something to stop with. If he likes it then I will remove the snaffle. It is going to be well padded. It's not an English one I have, it's the long shanked one, German?!? I will report back the results...
 
The German ones have a steel cable over the nose inside the padding and much longer shanks usually. They have a much stronger action than the English ones and can provoke extreme reactions on a horse not used to them, go very carefully! Glad you will also have the snaffle.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top