What do we all know about grass,Lami and Barefoot

Storminateacup

Storminateacup

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From what I can see (according to current doctrines) grass is generally bad for horses.
Seems for barefoot you need little grass( no sugar) lots of hay and hard ground to condition the feet.
Yet short grass that has been rained on then sunshine on it for a few hours, or grass that has experienced a frost is high in sugar and therefore is BAD grass and causes laminitis.
So if short grass is BAD grass, do we put our horses in the fields with the long tough fibrous grasses that have gone to seed? If that is the way to do things why do I see so many horses, laminitics too, grazing the roots of the grass in near bare paddocks while the rest of the fields have over a foot of grass?
I have tried the "paddock paradise" method for barefoot,wherein you have a narrow path around your field, like a trackway ( the middle you save for winter when the grass has turned to starch, run to seed and dried out rather like hay) ) so the horse keep moving about all day with minimal grass. It a great idea in principle but still supplied too much grass for my fat boy.

So what about the past view of Grass being "Dr Green", and all the nutrients in grass being the perfect balance, (in the absence of the sugars presumably).

What do HHO users make of all this conflicting information and how do you, avoid laminitis, supply the nutrients in the grass, without giving grass, etc and condition hooves for barefoot, ie no sugar in diet.

There was a time when horses ate grass in the spring and summer, hay in the winter, were fat in summer, slimmer in winter. It used to be so simple.
Is it just commercialisation thats getting the better of us now?
opinions/comments ( on the back of a postage stamp! ) please
 
I can answer one bit.. although long grass is 'good grass' there is still a quantity problem it is lower in sugars than short stressed grass so they would have to eat more of it but there is more of it.. you wouldn't want them on a paddock of it really as the quantity would be too much and you would be back to the same problem.
 
ester said:
I can answer one bit.. although long grass is 'good grass' there is still a quantity problem it is lower in sugars than short stressed grass so they would have to eat more of it but there is more of it.. you wouldn't want them on a paddock of it really as the quantity would be too much and you would be back to the same problem.
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Yes, I agree, - so what do we/you do?
 
well mine are good doers but neither has ever had lami atm. I strip graze so they get a section of the long grass every night, now we have run out of strips they are getting hay instead as the hay paddock (winter grazing) hasn't come back well enough yet.

I also work my boy as much as I can (he normally does a 6 day week and plenty of fast work though the hard ground is hampering the latter a bit)

If I had a lami horse....

they probably wouldn't be on grass at all, I would do what we used to do at local RS. they went on the small winter paddocks which basically were just mud and feed the oldest hay I could find.
 
I complete agree SIATC. My mind is boggling rather like yours...

No idea what real answer is, some are more prone than others obviously so I don't think there is just one way of doing it depending how healthy horse is in first place, factor in type of grass, quality of soil, etc yawn yawn yawn.

Also, in the past, according to my G'ma, lami ponies were simply shot, well anything with an illness ftm. Line the pockets of greedy vets? Not likely.

Anyway, I keep my lami with lots of others in a stressed paddock. All are fatter than they should be. Next door is a paddock FULL of green long grass and I dare not put them in there because of all the rumours about colic/lami/_______ insert objection of choice.

I wonder...
 
Could it be that pastures used to be old meadows and had different grasses to newer purposely planted paddocks. From what I understand most commerical grass mixes are aimed at cows that are being fattened/used for milk and are designed to be high in protein/sugar.

Co-incidently, I have just posted a question about what are the best grasses to use to seed a new paddock and have some really interesting replies with regard to what type of grass is best and which is lowest protein/sugar.
 
I've read the same as you about short stressed and long unstressed grass. I'm lucky that none of mine seem to be sensitive to grass, but I do try and manage them with it in mind because of all the barefoot stuff. This year I've done barely any topping and they get a small amount of the long seedy stuff in the morning (before 11am is supposed to be the 'safe' time) and then they get some hay in the evening. When they're not eating either of these, they are on short grass but it's a big area so shouldn't be badly stressed. I've no idea what I would do if they were fatty natives - that's one reason that the companion I got is half-TB and not the Shetland that lots of people suggested! I think natives can be much harder to manage.
 
I think there are a lot of factors, including a lot more fertilisation of pasture etc.

I suspect back in time horses were doing a lot more work.

I think you just have to do what seems to work the best in your situation.
 
All of my horses are unshod, 3 are worked unshod, one is retired due to arthritis and the other is a shetland who has suffered laminitis.

In summer they are 10 acres of unrestricted grass which isn't fertilised. They don't get fed anything other than grass. The shetland is muzzled but my thoroughbreds are just left to it. I'm afraid I'm a subscriber of the grass in summer and looking well and hay and feed in winter and looking slimmer technique. It seems to work and I'm sticking to it!
 
I agree that natives can be more difficult to manage. We've removed them from their natural harsh environment, keep a good weight on them all year round instead of dropping off over the winter, we rug and overfeed them and put them on fertilized paddocks.

My native has put too much weight on this summer, and is confined to a track with very short grass; not ideal, but she would founder for certain on anything longer. As the grass quality deteriorates I move the track a bit each day until it is right around the perimeter of the field until I can gradually open up the whole field up. I have to feed supplementary hay and some fast fibre/chaff with a vit supplement in. I also add mag ox to her diet.

I don't fertilise the paddock at all, other than to graze sheep on in the Spring. Another thing that we don't seem to do as often nowadays is to lime pasture that would help to keep the ph balance right.

We also used don't seem to exercise ponies as much as we used to years ago, the roads aren't as safe as they used to be so less hacking gets done I would imagine.
 
We have an acre of rough woodland - it's damp as it's near a stream which runs just below it. As we've had such dry weather we've no grass, so have opened the woodland up for our two to graze. There are quite a few patches of grass in amongst the (fairly sparse) trees, some paths which are grassed over (we have a few XC jumps in there too), a few nettles and other bits and pieces in there (took out the ragwort), good crop of cleavers etc. Our two have to rummage to get the grass, there's no single big grassy patch as in a big field, it's more as nature intended, they have to forage and get only a few good bits at a time, which takes time and energy, rather than huge grassy mouthfuls.
 
the 'science' behind the theory of stressed grass being bad is now hotly contested and thought to be flawed by some. with a laminitic there are some grasses (ie frosty/lush) which are worse but really its dependent on amount. At a series of talks this year the lammi trust basically said if you can cut 1.5kg of grass (basically a heaped Stubbs scoop) in less than an hour (I think, might have been 90mins) then you shouldnt turn your horse out on it.
average horse paddock grass, ie the sort found at most liveries don't provide your horses every needs anyway-horses evolved to get the most out of poor forage, what we call weeds and also leaves and stuff from trees etc not from fertilized grass.
I have 2 acres of ex cattle paddock and keep them on a track. unless the track is grazed right down there is still too much for them. I cut ash, beech, birch, nettles and thistles etc for them and supplement with old hay. even in winter all they get feed wise is some chaff, beet and pony nuts-a bag of speedibeet lasts me most of the winter.
one of the exmoors came to me grossly overweight with LGL. he will eat anything and stuff himself full of clover and really the only thing that gets the weight off is work-he carries me for 45-90mins (mainly in walk with a little trot) 5 days a week and is lunged over poles and jumps the other day. he is still chubby lol!
 
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Good thoughtful non-confrontational thread! :)

I think there's a few factors that come into play, that make this a "modern" problem:

1. most horses are in less work (highest work-season for agricultural horses is roughly at the same time as spring/fall grass danger season...funny how that works out!)
2. horses being grazed on pastures not designed for horses (high-yield cattle grass)
3. we're more likely to try to manage a sick horse, rather than shoot it, and less likely to ask a slightly lame horse to continue to work
4. possibly increased prevalence of barefoot makes us notice LGL sooner/panic more.

Currently, my pony is in and out of pony jail (aka the starvation paddock). He was in there for about a month during the worst of the grass, when he developed LGL, and we narrowly avoided a full-blown lami attack. The amount of grass in there is minuscule, and he was getting old hay and a balancer + magnesium oxide. I've had to put him back in the big field now, which is mature grass gone to seed, so hopefully, we'll manage to keep him ok now---although after only a week, he's beginning to resemble a whale pony again. Exercise had been a problem lately, with the whole chucking-me-off-and-doing-my-shoulder-ligament thing, but hopefully, we'll get back on top of that.

I asked on a thread a few weeks ago about people who've managed to make a track system a la Jaime Jackson work in this wet, lush country...I've seen one up here, but it's on someone's private land, and they're lucky in that the layout of the land offers itself.

I'd be interested to know if any livery yards, in particular, have made it work. I think our yard now has a critical mass of interested people, so that we could possibly give it a go in one of the fields, but I foresee problems of mud, mud, mud, hay distribution (generally, big circular feeders in winter), shelter, and, er, mud. I don't think, somehow, that we're going to convince the YM to pea-gravel the entire thing!
 
I rent land and buildings from a yard owner but keep my three on their own if that makes sense? My YO has been pretty supportive wrt the track-I had a temporary one last year and a semi-permanent one this year in that I've had fence posts put in. I don't know what I'll do in the winter-I could block off the track but the tape wont last a scottish winter and I can't leave posts standing by themselves. I am not sure about having plain wire putting up. I had to promise I wouldnt graze it completely bald or let them churn it up if it was a wet summer.I may reseed parts of it early next year.

I think if your livery owner is a farmer you'd have your work cut out convincing them. Farmers can't stand what horses do to a paddock anyway lol! you are basically asking them to sacrifice a fair bit of land. If I had my own place I would definitely hardcore a bit of it, have it there permanently and have a big sand pit as well as some pea gravel.
 
I'm very lucky as I have large fields on a steep hill which ensures they've never been arable, nor have they been used for anything but horses for about 20 years to my knowledge.

They are a complete mixture of lawned areas, which are a mixture of grass, clover & some camomile and weedy patches. There is an incredible diversity of plants. The horses choose to eat thistle flowers, leaves from burr plants, wolfsbane and brambles. They have just started on the nettles and are stripping these, stalks included.

The ponies (and Sienna) on restricted grazing, have fairly large amounts of hay still as I think it's so good for them, they are also strip grazed. Otherwise they are on a very bare paddock and also chose to eat weeds whenever they can.

The fields behind mine were moved over to cattle about 10 years ago and are thick, lush grass now, with no weeds. Interstingly the farmer put sheep in recently without checking the fencing and all the sheep ignored his lush grass, went straight through the fence and moved into my fields!!
 
peteralfred said:
the 'science' behind the theory of stressed grass being bad is now hotly contested and thought to be flawed by some. with a laminitic there are some grasses (ie frosty/lush) which are worse but really its dependent on amount. At a series of talks this year the lammi trust basically said if you can cut 1.5kg of grass (basically a heaped Stubbs scoop) in less than an hour (I think, might have been 90mins) then you shouldnt turn your horse out on it.
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Interesting info there peteralfred. Well my fields certainly not suitable on that basis.
A lot of interesting points brought up in this discussion, I think I acknowledge too that modern pasture turnout has changed considrably to how grazing padocks used to be. Much is that which has been used for high yield beef and dairy farming, and many fields get fertilized as well, so grass is effectively "forced" and nutitional value is high.
Also horses used to hack more, and never as fat as so many today are (including my own fatman). However for many people the prospect of feeding hay at this time off the year is really quite daunting, with regard to prices of the stuff.
I for one cannot do it so mine have to have a grass as the only tummy filler
 
I have barefoot horses, kept on unrestricted grazing (40 acres all together). I never fertilise, never seed and only ever fence off about 3 acres at a time (that they can't get to) and rest it for 4 - 6 weeks before moving to the next 3 acres, etc ... Horses are in light to medium work and I also have some turned away horses for age or injury reasons. Never had any lami.
 
Not sure about barefoot tbh...but our girl has suffered since we rescued her from lami (she has had 3 bouts).
So since we got her, the general prevention methods we take are;
- fed a low sugar lami approved diet like Happy Hoof with cider vinegar (and a few other supplements)
- exercised daily
- has access to restricted grazing in a grass muzzle and has soaked hay
- avoidance of working on any hard grounds to prevent mechanical laminitis
- kept at a good weight and had her feet kept on top of

When she has had lami the vets have said there is nothing we could have done to avoid it.
However, lately she has still suffered a severe bout of lami - we think caused by the stress of recent seizures she also suffered for which we couldn't find a cause for.
I see too many overweight ponies left out grazing in the field who have had lami in the past and it does make me worry :(
K x
 
Interesting thread and I think many of you have hit the nail on the head - more work, better 'horse' pasture. As a kid I remember all of the horses and ponies being out in a herd in a pretty big field, but old grazing used for horses, not fertilised and not very nutritional. In winter they lived out with no rugs and just hay so their weight dropped. In spring we started riding again in the evenings and weekends. I remember I used to hack 5 miles to a friends, spend the day with her riding about the countryside then hack 5 miles back in the evening. Not many ponies get that sort of work these days as the roads just aren't safe. Bu the summer holidays those ponies were pretty fit!!!!! Yes, they put on some weight but not enough to be very fat. Then the cycle started again in the winter.
 
I have a pony prone to laminitis, not in as much work as he used to be so needs careful management. He had it quite bad before we got him but thankfully hasn't had it since, he got a bit footy once in 2008 so we took him off the grass and he was on box rest for a week or 2 and then off grass for a month or so but (knocking VERY loudly on wood) all has been well since.

Normally I have made him a pen in part of the main field so he is still out with other horses and then I basically strip graze him, and he seems to get away with having the odd night out in the big field and so far has been able to do winters out in the big field.

I kind of get the feeling that the optimum for most horses is probably a large area of middling quality grass if that makes sense, like you'd find on the steppes or plains. But, like many ponies/horses, my pony lives on an old dairy farm and the grass has been planted with dairy cows in mind and is generally very rich. I am beginning to think very rich grass is not beneficial to many horses, even hayburning tbs.

This year we've purposely chose a field that isn't so great quality so he can have a bigger pen and even the TB and her companion are doing very well on it too, with no hay needed for anyone yet.
 
ester said:
I think there are a lot of factors, including a lot more fertilisation of pasture etc.
Couldn't agree more. That lovely bright green stuff might look good to the livery client - but the horse would be much better off with varying species, including herbage, and only fertilising if it really, really needs it :)
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i think a lot of people aim for those square flat paddocks with even green grass and not a weed or other type of plant in sight.

however horses and especially good doer native type ponies have not evolved to live in that sort of environment - people end up feeding more hard feed as the grass does not provide all the variety of nutrients needed and then the ponies are more likely to get fat.

a better way would be a hilly field with a variety of grasses, plants, trees and bushes - some plants have medicinal qualities - dandillions are meant to be good for the liver and beech leaves are full of minerals, rosehips are also full of vitamins as are nettles and thistles. perhaps it is the medicinal plants combined with less fattening types of fibre and moving around more to forage that also help.

i am lucky in that we have this sort of grazing on our livery yard for the living out good doer ponies but this sort of traditional grazing is rare now. if i had my own land i would be interested in planting a wide range of medicinal herbs and plants in the pasture.

i do look at the grazing and sometimes think it looks a bit sparse and my pony would like more to eat but this sort of environment is best for him. in the winter they go into the winter fields which have been rested and are living hay.
 
Nobody has yet mentioned/factored in the change in a pony's metabolism in winter and summer. They are designed to come out of winter and into spring virtual hat-racks, having spent all winter gradually using up the fat stores laid down during the summer months of lush grazing. Exmoors and Dartmoors and Welsh ponies out in their natural environment don't get laminitis, because their seasonal eating habits are exactly matched to grass availability, and a wonderfully effective switch between fat storage and fat usage.

It follows quite obviously that a pony coming out of winter, after months of being properly fed whilst on full 'resource lockdown' and careful, slow breakdown of summer fat reserves, will hit springtime looking like a whale. It never got chance to use up any fat and quite conversely, has been fed dollops and dollops during a time when it can exist on fresh air!


How many people knew that, then?
 
I had a laminitic and it was awful, had to have him PTS in the end, my poor boy.

With grass, its not just the quality, texture etc., its actually WHEN you turn out thats important too. Both the vet and farrier said that the worst thing you can do with a laminitic (or any horse predisposed to it) is to turn them out on a frosty morning, as the frost causes the fructans to rise in the grass, which the horse then eats, and its a bit like a diabetic having a feast of sugar, same effect basically.

Another problem is that much of the pasture nowadays was sown for dairy cows who need a much richer grass for their milk yield, whereas horses are better with a more mixed/rough pasture where they have to forage a bit, plus have the herbs and things they will pick out naturally as and when they need.

Interesting debate.
 
brighteyes said:
Nobody has yet mentioned/factored in the change in a pony's metabolism in winter and summer. They are designed to come out of winter and into spring virtual hat-racks, having spent all winter gradually using up the fat stores laid down during the summer months of lush grazing. Exmoors and Dartmoors and Welsh ponies out in their natural environment don't get laminitis, because their seasonal eating habits are exactly matched to grass availability, and a wonderfully effective switch between fat storage and fat usage.

It follows quite obviously that a pony coming out of winter, after months of being properly fed whilst on full 'resource lockdown' and careful, slow breakdown of summer fat reserves, will hit springtime looking like a whale. It never got chance to use up any fat and quite conversely, has been fed dollops and dollops during a time when it can exist on fresh air!


How many people knew that, then?
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I like what I am hearing Brighteyes. A very valid point indeed.
 
SO1: interesting point about the beech leaves! My pony is mad about them. They've stripped off all the leaves within reach of the pony jail, and when we're in the woods, he makes a grab for them, too (and, to be fair, anything else he can reach that's vaguely green). I've put him on a general balancer to counteract any deficiencies he may be experiencing...

Just a quick note to KellysHeroes: Happy Hoof does, infact, contain some molasses, so it may just be that your mare simply can't take any sugar like that at all. I wouldn't use it for a laminitic, sticker or no sticker. Maybe worth asking your vet about?
 
Has anyone tried to encourage things like nettles, thistles and especially clivers in their fields? How would you go about it? I had a big patch of clivers growing on some old bales, but it's all gone now. Mine are a bit rubbish at eating standing plants, but they'll eat them if I pick them!

With regard to the semi-permanent track fence, why wouldn't you leave fence posts in the field without a fence on?
 
I used to be on a grass livery yard where the summer grazing was 40 acres and the winter grazing 20 acres - only ever 20 horses on it at a time. It has to be said that in summer the horses were as fat as pigs but we never had laminitus until a change in policy a few years ago where they were moved between the fields every couple of months. The other big change was that new horses were introduced into the herd ad hoc instead of only at field change times. That year there were about 4 cases of lami and quite a few fight injuries. So the old regime was reintroduced and no new cases but of course, the ponies that had been lami never went back onto grass livery sucessfully.

It was a funny yard, still stuck in the 60's IYKWIM - if you called a vet for anything other than a missing leg you were looked at like you were mad;) but it was old grassland that was only lightly topped when the horses had moved to keep the brambles under control with old thick hedging that contained damsons, rosehips, blackberries and sloes. You'd see the horses vertically grazing them when grass was a bit low but if they dropped weight in the winter it was considered quite normal and nothing to worry about and vice versa in summer.

Anyway, fast forward a few years and the yard is now under new management (YO died and business now taken over by family members whoes entire horse knowledge is gained via google!) and the big fields are now topped 3 times a year , gives the boys a chance to place with the tractor toys, there are 40 liveries, the hedging has been cut back to increase grazing and fertilizer goes on by the ton:eek:

The cases of lami have soared, at anyone time last spring there were 10 - 15 horses on box rest with sore feet, similar numbers the previous autumn after the dry summer where hay was fed in the field since mid July.
 
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