What do you think a 3yo should be doing under saddle?

AdorableAlice said:
Not this.........................

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Will you not scare me just before I back Ludo, please! :D

Ted is a law to himself, surely?
 
sport horse said:
Can someone please list all the winners of 4 year old classes that subsequently went on to be Grand Prix/ international horses?
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there are some nice stats for BYEH, iirc the 4year olds was no predictor at all/many were never seen again, but as you got to 5 and 6 a few more came through. Having watched the finals last year and a few years previously it does not make a good watch.

I accept that some bred for the game 4 year olds will be ready for it with very little prep, but don't then agree that we should be starting them early so that we don't have to cram in their pre age classes education.
 
ycbm said:
The article is American, I think, and about the dangers of backing a horse before three, which is common in the USA but not here except in flat racers.

The schedule of growth plate closure is well known. What we don't have is any scientific evidence that there is any problem at all with backing and riding lightly at three. Just because the plates aren't closed doesn't mean the horse will be damaged by being ridden at three.
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It might be American but US horses are pretty similar in structure to UK ones.
Each to their own. . I cannot see much justification in risking it unless the rider is worried and needs to dominate the horse when he is less strong.

Lovely pic of AA's horse. Sadly I didn't take a pic of my arab stallion when backing him at 4 or I could have shown the other side. I got on with a headcollar bareback. No fireworks we just ambled around quietly. He was a little sod and could have removed me as easily at 3 as at 4.

To me not worth it as I buy my horses young and expect them to still be with me when they are 25-30 yo. It you are producing horses to sell/pass on where you won't be around to see later life problems then I don't suppose it matters. There was a thread on here recently about how old ridden horses live to. The ages some considered old astounded me. I consider 25 old but usually still rideable. I wonder how many horses who don't make old bones were ridden young.
 
paddy555 said:
It might be American but US horses are pretty similar in structure to UK ones.
Each to their own. . I cannot see much justification in risking it unless the rider is worried and needs to dominate the horse when he is less strong.
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Yes but the article is about riding TWO year olds and trying to persuade people to wait until they were three. I don't see this being about dominating the horse at all, and I certainly wouldn't ride a two year old.

I wonder how many horses who don't make old bones were ridden young.
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So do I. I'd like some research. Obviously I don't think really light work as a three year old will make any difference, or I wouldn't do it. If research ever indicates differently, I'll stop.
 
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nothing , i have found that the maturity gained by the horse of 4 years is a great advantage, its brain is more capable of focusing its no stronger or more wayward, its more likely to have a better balance and control over its body.

i never turn away, just carry on until everything has sunk in through the first baby stage, some four year olds are not really ready to break and with showjumping i would be very cautious about damaging the legs or back, as they can be very out of proportion until more mature.

i always think i am training the horse`s mind and body follows on
 
Back at three over 6 - 8 weeks and ride 2 - 3 times a week for 20 mins max, W/T/tiny bit of canter, keep ticking over until four, then increase number and duration of sessions, especially canter if not gangly, go to first show (dressage) when ready and start a bit of jumping if that's your thing, start proper work at five. Use common sense and don't pound the legs off them and you should have a sound, balanced, willing and educated horse.
 
My youngster will be backed lightly at the end of this summer when she is 3.5 years old. This will be simple walk, trot and canter with a light rider. The idea is that she will be ridden for around 6 weeks and then turned away until Spring 2019 when she will be slowly brought back into work and not rushed. She is a well put together, strong and sensible filly so this will not put undue strain on her. I have had horses that have not been mature enough to back until they were 5 years old and they have been left until then before we backed them.
I think the key is to look at the horse in front of you and only do what they can cope with. If they aren't ready, don't push them. But if they are physically and mentally mature enough at 3.5 years then there is no harm in slowly starting their ridden career.
 
thinking about it the last one i backed was a 16 2 hh six year old that i bred, i get people wanting to buy him all the time, but he is so wonderful no amount of money could replace him, he is a rolls royce of horses but the reason i like him so much is the feeling of sheer pleasure i get from riding him and the fact he is a not so young baby, an older horse can have a lot more going for it in my opinion, and i am willing to wait

agree with aa on this 100 per cent, and the chiro about not backing till 5, horse are fragile enough and keeping them right can be a challenge without fully working them under 6 years.
 
sport horse said:
Can someone please list all the winners of 4 year old classes that subsequently went on to be Grand Prix/ international horses?
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I'm on a show jumping yard and the YO and her daughter have worked on various international yards. According to them, age classes are used by those yards as more or less a shop window - producers/competitors fund their yards by getting youngsters going asap to sell. The really promising horses that they want to keep for themselves are more likely to be kept back and produced much more slowly to have long term competitive careers. So I would be very interested to know how many top 4 year olds go on to have long term careers at top level. Not very many I assume. Also how old the current crop of top horses were when they were first seen out competing?
 
ycbm said:
Yes but the article is about riding TWO year olds and trying to persuade people to wait until they were three. I don't see this being about dominating the horse at all, and I certainly wouldn't ride a two year old.



So do I. I'd like some research. Obviously I don't think really light work as a three year old will make any difference, or I wouldn't do it. If research ever indicates differently, I'll stop.
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what research would satisfy you though? and what research could there be? do you look at old horses and try and see when they were backed? if you get a 30yo still going strong it doesn't prove anything it could just have had an easy life. If you have a 7year old with endless structural problems backed at early 3 if could have got them from somewhere else.
For me my chiro's opinion is good enough research.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I'm on a show jumping yard and the YO and her daughter have worked on various international yards. According to them, age classes are used by those yards as more or less a shop window - producers/competitors fund their yards by getting youngsters going asap to sell. The really promising horses that they want to keep for themselves are more likely to be kept back and produced much more slowly to have long term competitive careers. So I would be very interested to know how many top 4 year olds go on to have long term careers at top level. Not very many I assume. Also how old the current crop of top horses were when they were first seen out competing?
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I am also in the show jumping world and I totally agree that 'those that can' are rarely seen as 4 and 5 year olds at least. Maybe a little at 6 but appear as 7 year olds and soon move to a decent level.
 
paddy555 said:
what research would satisfy you though? and what research could there be? do you look at old horses and try and see when they were backed? if you get a 30yo still going strong it doesn't prove anything it could just have had an easy life. If you have a 7year old with endless structural problems backed at early 3 if could have got them from somewhere else.
For me my chiro's opinion is good enough research.
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A study with a big enough sample to allow for matching of workloads, breeding and other variables and produce a statistically significant result to a 95% level of confidence.

Anecdote on small numbers, like the case load of one chiropractor, would not persuade me not to sit on my three year old this year. The longest working horse I know personally was a mare who was in work at three.

I understand why other people believe differently, and thankfully we are all free to follow our own beliefs in the absence of any scientific evidence that any of us are doing any harm.
 
There is a world of difference between backing, light work and 4yo age classes which is what the OP was asking about. I backed mine at rising 4 and they took it all in their stride physically and mentally. But I would not want to be out competing at 4 other than very low level for exposure. There may not be much research but if the world's best riders are waiting till 6+ to compete their own horses then that's good enough for me!

In the rest of the athletic world the mantra seems to be the younger the better - gymnasts selected for intense training from 3 years old for example. If the same was true of horses the top riders would know that and would do that. But they don't which I think speaks volumes personally.
 
Ambers Echo said:
In the rest of the athletic world the mantra seems to be the younger the better - gymnasts selected for intense training from 3 years old for example. If the same was true of horses the top riders would know that and would do that. But they don't which I think speaks volumes personally.
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Yes and look at the state the bodies of gymnasts are in by the time they are in their 30s! Ballet dancers suffer from putting their bodies under strain from a young age too. If that is the case with humans, it is likely that it is the same with horses, especially if we ask them to carry a weight on their backs before they are physically mature.
 
very lightly backing at 3.5 can be a good idea for some horses- I took on 2 just turning 4 new forests and they had become pretty feral aged 3 to 4 as they were not handled (had been well handled previously but owner had then turned them out with no handling practically for a year). that being said, they didn't necessarily need backing at 3.5 just handling. as they had reached an age where they needed to start learning how to be a 'grown up'

personally I think it is not wise to jump and school under 4. I have an ex-flat race horse- raced at 3, but small fracture in pelvis and didn't actually come into his own until 5- then had 3 good years before tendon injury. At 15 he was already pretty arthritic (just being a ridden horse with medium work load aged 8_15). he is 21 now and happy but struggles in the cold and damp. my 15 year old low mileage mare has no problems at all. she wasn't jumping until 5.

I think it is rushed due to cost- yet another year keeping a young horse and it not really gaining any value while costing you is not viable. although even then I don't know how people make money on horses they are often priced so low.
 
I am another of the nothing or as little as possible brigade. Young bodies and minds in particular need to be allowed to mature and develop. I have sen far too many youngsters ruined by doing too much too young. The easiest ones I have ever trained were all started at 6 plus.
 
Professional producers have to take into account the cost of each year a young horse is not in work. The rest of us do not, on the whole. We bought a just backed three year old, the move plus a hoof problem, caused her to be hugely mistrustful, so I have spent the time building up a rapport and her trust in me. I have re-backed her and turned her away again. The first time I put a bridle on her, the year she came, I had to build the thing round her, her brain and her body were not ready for work, this spring she will be ridden and learn her long term job. Our views on what maturity consists of, in humans, has changed out of all recognition in the last 100 years, perhaps our view on maturity in horses needs the same scrutiny. A hundred years ago, my paternal grandfather was a "part time scholar" at the age of ten, attending school in the morning and working in a mill in the afternoon.
 
I know someone who is a successful eventer and produces lovely horses, but I wouldn't buy a horse from her.

She has them out competing so young, I doubt they'll last as long as if they were eased into work. She is hardly the only one doing it either.

I think the young horse classes are the cause of it.
 
Ambers Echo said:
There is a world of difference between backing, light work and 4yo age classes which is what the OP was asking about. I backed mine at rising 4 and they took it all in their stride physically and mentally. But I would not want to be out competing at 4 other than very low level for exposure. There may not be much research but if the world's best riders are waiting till 6+ to compete their own horses then that's good enough for me!
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Totally agree. Mine will not be competing at four in anything except a local showing class or UA intro/prelim just for somewhere to go. He may do the farm ride, but he won't jump more than half a dozen things no more than 70cm high, and if he feels tired I'll cut the last loop out. You definitely can do too much too soon, I'm just not quite convinced that a half hour hack at three qualifies as too much.
 
I think as leisure or amateur competition riders people can afford to take time with their horses. Better safe than sorry.
 
Dave's Mam said:
So what are views on a rising 6 year old, backed last year, but not done a lot popping over raised poles 6" or so, ridden?
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No problem with this at all. IMO an older pony that is started late is already physically mature so they can be brought into 'proper' work faster.

A four year old is still not a mature animal. He may be fine to carry a rider but I don't like to see anything jumped until it's five.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
My reply may be considered to be even less helpful; Nothing at all.

3 yr olds are still growing, there is a lot you can do with them without putting a rider on.
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Totally agree. I'm happy to buy an unbroken 5 year old, they are more physically and mentally ready for riding. All mine start by being led out from another horse. They then get used to a rider looming over them, learn to go freely forward, and are half broken before i ever get on them.
 
I used to do my own animals, but I now am a lot older and fatter, and my daughters no longer ride, so I have to pay for backing.
Even if you agree with backing a three, if you are selling on in the leisure market there are few buyers for a just backed three year old, they can not show it in young stock classes for very long and they can not ride it at shows. I have no trouble selling a 4/5 year old that has only done a little work and mainly hacked out.
 
Dave's Mam said:
So what are views on a rising 6 year old, backed last year, but not done a lot popping over raised poles 6" or so, ridden?
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Mine was working up to novice WH by that point, also backed at 5. So not too bothered!

The only age classes I’ve done have been dressage 4 and 5yos so not sure I can comment really. Not had much of that class before or since! I bought the horse already competing at BD in May of his 4yo year. My current 4 in work are much scruffier, 1 I broke at 7, 1 was barely backed when I got him at the very end of his 4yo year and the other was well broken in the middle of his 5yo year. The other had driven to Appleby at 3, changed into a hogged cob and at RIHS by 4. Hoping to do the ponies in age classes this season but might end up just doing the ‘normal’ ones due to time. The rising 7yo is working above his age class level but he seems to have lived before- it’s taken very little work. The rising 5yo we’ve still got to confirm contact, rhythm, steering....
 
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