ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I would be very cautious about buying an unbacked five year old unless I could be certain that it was genuinely unbacked and not that someone had made a mess of doing it already.
What do you think a 3yo should be doing under saddle?
- Thread starter MeganMarie
- Start date
I would be very cautious about buying an unbacked five year old unless I could be certain that it was genuinely unbacked and not that someone had made a mess of doing it already.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
this.. I think (that as owners breaking their own) leaving them later makes the job easier. They get through the stroppy teenage part and at 5 or 6 are more cooperative and mentally more developed. I would do lots of work in the meantime to make sure the horse/rider relationship and understanding was there but I can see no advantages in being in a hurry to get on at 3. The other advantage is that once you get on you can actually ride them rather than just a few minutes around the school on a 3yo. That way they can immediately start going out, getting gradually fit and get more interest out of their rides rather than looking for mischief
Whilst you have been waiting to back the horse you have done everything else. The horse has been out in traffic alone so often he is bored stiff with vehicles. He has already spooked at the llamas, pheasants and everything else and learnt to go in front or behind and to leave other horses. He has had so many things on his back, his front end, his hind quarters and everywhere else a rider is probably a relief.
On the hacking alone thread there seem to be many horses who don't like hacking alone. I find horses ride as they long rein so if they are happy out front in long reins they are often happy riding. There is no reason why long reining cannot start early. The horse can go out with others and learn. Then when he comes to be ridden it becomes a non event.
I don't understand the hurry (if money is not involved in producing a horse for sale) I bought a 3yo someone had made a total mess of backing as they insisted horses were backed at 3. They backed at 3 as they were scared and thought it would be easier to dominate the horse. He never recovered. I also had his 3yo half brother who was backed at the end of 4 and had done lots in the meantime. He was just so easy. Two very closely related horses showed what could go wrong mentally if attempting to ride too early.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I have backed two full brothers at three. One loathed the girth and took about 200 repeats to get him to stop reacting to it. Ridden he was easy to back but tricky to compete. I had a good season on him at PN eventing, sold him and two subsequent owners couldn't get him to repeat what he did with me and were eliminated. The other was a doddle to back, won the first cross country I entered him for as a schooling exercise, and evented to intermediate with his next owner.
Can we agree that there is simply a difference of opinion about this until there is some evidence that backing at three by a competent person does any harm? We could go on swapping anecdotes until the cows come home
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I have backed two full brothers at three. One loathed the girth and took about 200 repeats to get him to stop reacting to it. Ridden he was easy to back but tricky to compete. I had a good season on him at PN eventing, sold him and two subsequent owners couldn't get him to repeat what he did with me and were eliminated. The other was a doddle to back, won the first cross country I entered him for as a schooling exercise, and evented to intermediate with his next owner.
Can we agree that there is simply a difference of opinion about this until there is some evidence that backing at three by a competent person does any harm? We could go on swapping anecdotes until the cows come home
Agree with this: while there are some lines that are known for their trainability (or not), there are no guarantees that similar or related horses will share the same traits. There are many reasons for breaking horses at the traditional age of 3, many of them to do with the mental pliability of the horse. As long as the trainer uses common sense and assesses the horses physical capabilities as they go along (which may include deciding to leave the horse until it is more mature), there is nothing wrong with beginning training, just as there is nothing wrong with children playing sports when young. HOWEVER, the trainer must have the experience and sensitivity to know when to stop: it is the overtraining of young horses that does the damage.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think that is where some of the age classes don't help, because humans like to have things to aim for which I think risks them pushing on when they shouldn't. Obviously good trainers don't but I suspect it depends on relationships with owners etc especially if owner wants to sell. The few horses at the burghley 4yos this year who didn't look totally overfaced by the course definitely stood out because they were the exception. I am sure plenty of the rest went home having been set back a bit.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
This is completely the case in eventing, particularly for 4yo’s.
There are a handful of riders that seem intent on doing young horse classes even with their potential top horses, but those aside, the majority showcase their ‘sellers’ and keep the good ones on a different schedule
ihatework
Well-Known Member
Crack on. You can take things too slowly too!
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Personally, I used to think that 6yo is the ultimate age to start anything in light of the data about bone maturity but on balance, I'm not sure that for an average domestic horse doing nothing but grow in a field full of grass is optimal either... especially when horses live a fairly prescriptive life in small paddocks. Even in the largest grazing that can be afforded with a herd, a young horse will never do as much exercise and conditioning as a horse in the wild does and there is little difference between them.
There's no reason to pretend that they will "mature" in a field up until that age. They will be soft and the bones unconditioned to carrying at all gaits. The (pretty cruel) studies done on racehorses show that exercise affects a foals' bone density and tensile strength of tendons vs foals that are kept in small paddocks with no exercise. Common sense I guess.
So, with the above and many other things considered, I've now decided that it depends on the circumstances when a horse/pony should begin any kind of training. If they are not fortunate enough to be able to run with a large herd roaming many hundreds of acres (I mean where in the UK is that even possible except the mountains and moorlands?) then the conditioning needs to begin a bit earlier, say at 4yo roughly. It needs to be done sympathetically and with it's skeletal and muscular development in mind. I disagree with young horses being bound and gagged and forced into shapes their anatomy can hardly handle. So, within reason, correct postural exercise, with periods of rest for the average young horse is beneficial.
There's no reason to pretend that they will "mature" in a field up until that age. They will be soft and the bones unconditioned to carrying at all gaits. The (pretty cruel) studies done on racehorses show that exercise affects a foals' bone density and tensile strength of tendons vs foals that are kept in small paddocks with no exercise. Common sense I guess.
So, with the above and many other things considered, I've now decided that it depends on the circumstances when a horse/pony should begin any kind of training. If they are not fortunate enough to be able to run with a large herd roaming many hundreds of acres (I mean where in the UK is that even possible except the mountains and moorlands?) then the conditioning needs to begin a bit earlier, say at 4yo roughly. It needs to be done sympathetically and with it's skeletal and muscular development in mind. I disagree with young horses being bound and gagged and forced into shapes their anatomy can hardly handle. So, within reason, correct postural exercise, with periods of rest for the average young horse is beneficial.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
The SF Championships in France are in October and for 3 year old horses. Not only do they loose jump over big fences they are presented under saddle and jump small fences with a rider. It is common here in France for 3 year old horse to be backed and jumping before winter of their third year. I don't agree with this and know from speaking to a local vet, that they have a 'lot' of horses with back problems.
Having said all that, I know of and read about people who have bought Cleveland Bays who have had little or no handling by the time they are three and can be a real handful. It saddens me that the CB has such a bad and undeserved reputation for being stubborn and difficult - not a problem on this farm. Every one of our youngsters has been treated differently. One pure bred CB backed in the autumn of her third year and turned away; another not backed until she was four years old.
What DO we do with our 3 year olds? All are handled from the time they are foals, towards the end of their third year, mouthed, have a saddle on their backs. Long reined with two reins, perhaps ride and lead on the road; horse box training. Taken for a loose jumping session at a pro yard. Perhaps ridden lightly and turned away, perhaps not, depends on the horse.
Having said all that, I know of and read about people who have bought Cleveland Bays who have had little or no handling by the time they are three and can be a real handful. It saddens me that the CB has such a bad and undeserved reputation for being stubborn and difficult - not a problem on this farm. Every one of our youngsters has been treated differently. One pure bred CB backed in the autumn of her third year and turned away; another not backed until she was four years old.
What DO we do with our 3 year olds? All are handled from the time they are foals, towards the end of their third year, mouthed, have a saddle on their backs. Long reined with two reins, perhaps ride and lead on the road; horse box training. Taken for a loose jumping session at a pro yard. Perhaps ridden lightly and turned away, perhaps not, depends on the horse.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Rollin do you find the same in France re only the sales horses being aimed at the age classes or not? Do those successful in those classes go on to success?
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Yes, it's for the reasons you give that my physio advocates backing at 3.5-4 to give their bodies a period of light exposure for a year or so before you want to do any 'proper' work with them. In her opinion there is a physical conditioning benefit even when only sitting on a horse of this age once a week.
Snitch
Well-Known Member
https://www.webertrainingstables.com/riding-young
Interesting article.
Interesting article.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I don't think that any-one on here is advocating leaving a horse, which is destined to be ridden, doing nothing in a field until it is 6! There are plenty of things that can and should be done with any horse in preparation for backing. Reading some of the literature about the growth of bone plates, I am not surprised that there are so many instances of KS
paddy555
Well-Known Member
Can we agree that there is simply a difference of opinion about this until there is some evidence that backing at three by a competent person does any harm? We could go on swapping anecdotes until the cows come home
certainly we beg to differ. What is the hurry to back at 3? one of the luxuries of breaking your own horses is the luxury of time. Whilst you say there is no evidence equally I can find no evidence to support your view that backing at 3 is OK. I don't understand if you back in say Oct of the 3rd year what you do then? turn away and re do at 4 which makes the whole thing pointless or alternatively ride over the winter ie keep in riding your 3 yo.
The person with a lot of info on this is probably Dr deb. This is one of her articles. She advocates between 4 and 6.
https://www.writingofriding.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/deb-bennett-maturation.pdf
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Do you find it impossible to accept that nobody has ANY scientific evidence backing at three does any harm?
Until you have that evidence I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to convince me and most of the rest of the world that I am wrong to back my own three year old, and agree to differ. Do what you want to do, and let other people do what they want to do.
PS turning away after backing is a purely British habit. I don't do it.
prodigal2
Member
The Spanish Riding School backs at 3 and they come into undersaddle work at 5. And some other classical schools do the similar. So not just a british thing.
tristar
Well-Known Member
the last horse i sold in france was a 3yr old stallion who was then backed, he did 12 competitions as a four year old, the new owners thought that was light work for a 4 yr old.
i have see 2yr olds jumped over 5 ft in prep for the sales in france, ridden 3yr olds tend to be ridden in a natural outline, in contrast to ireland where they all seen to have their heads in quite fixed on the bit position even at three yrs old.
i have see 2yr olds jumped over 5 ft in prep for the sales in france, ridden 3yr olds tend to be ridden in a natural outline, in contrast to ireland where they all seen to have their heads in quite fixed on the bit position even at three yrs old.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Well there is certainly plenty of evidence that horses are not fully physically mature until they are 5/6 yrs old. Then it doesn't take a genius, or a scientist, to work out that there is more likelihood of damage being done to the younger musculo-skeletal system than to a mature one.
I don't think any-one is trying to persuade you, ycbm, to not do what you had planned to do with your own 3 yr old, just to make it clear to those with a more open mind, or the less experienced why it is usually only those who want to make a reasonably quick profit and aren't worried about the longer term health of their youngsters, who choose to back at 3.
I am more than happy to differ from you.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Most of the rest of the world, whether breaking to sell or to keep, back the leisure and sport horse at either two or three.
Evidence that growth plates do not close until the horse is older is not evidence that light riding of a three year old by a competent person does any harm.
And the use of the term 'with a more open mind' makes it very clear that you certainly ARE trying to tell other people that they are wrong
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Most of the rest of the world, whether breaking to sell or to keep, back the leisure and sport horse at either two or three.
Evidence that growth plates do not close until the horse is older is not evidence that light riding of a three year old by a competent person does any harm.
And the use of the term 'with a more open mind' makes it very clear that you certainly ARE trying to tell other people that they are wrong
Actually, I couldn't care less what you do with your horses, it is no skin off my nose either way. What I always hope to do when I post on here is to give those who are willing to listen the benefit of my experience. I do not say that my way is the only correct way, just that this is what has worked for me and others whom I know in RL - and as it happens I know a lot of horses which have been backed later than 3 yrs old, unless they were destined for racing.
Clava
Well-Known Member
Most of the rest of the world, whether breaking to sell or to keep, back the leisure and sport horse at either two or three.
Evidence that growth plates do not close until the horse is older is not evidence that light riding of a three year old by a competent person does any harm.
And the use of the term 'with a more open mind' makes it very clear that you certainly ARE trying to tell other people that they are wrong
Quite true. I back at 3, it is a careful, gentle and minimal process, one person's backing with light riding may not be as intense as another's so hard to compare what each is talking about.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Is there any evidence that kissing spines are more prevalent in thoroughbreds backed at 20-22 months to race as two year olds suffer any more instances of kissing spines than horses backed later?
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
And my post was not directed at anyone in particular PAS... not sure why you feel the need to be so defensive?
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I was simply making a remark, nothing defensive about it. I don't think anyone was advocating leaving youngsters to their own devices until they are 6. There are lots of posts about things that can be done with youngsters before backing - at any age.
D
Last edited:
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
I don't quite understand what you think you have seen in my post/s! I am not at all defensive, I don't back at 3 and have absolutely no need of validation of my views/practices from any-one on here.
Incidentally the remark which you quoted was made in response to a post by tallyho!, even though you seem to have taken it personally
I think you're talking to tallyho!
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Indeed. My mind was elsewhere - trying to do too many things at once!
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I know, and I was just adding my thoughts to the mix which were not in response to anyone in particular
.I see you changed your post - nb, when I posted, it wasn't in response to any post, as I hadn't read all of the responses.
Last edited:
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Speaking as someone who has specialised in breaking and training young horses for more than 30 years, and has had a personal "sample" of more than 200 horses, I must say that people's vehemence on the subject is a bit bemusing. I have only once backed a horse younger than 3 years, on the insistence of a client, and to this day I regret having done that as the horse was mentally not ready, the oldest I have broken was a 10 year old mare, who was quite difficult. I've left a few big, gangly youngsters until they were 4, but the vast majority were 3 year olds. I have NEVER had a horse go lame or have a sore back, etc. whilst being broken. Obviously I haven't been able to keep track of all the horses, but those that I have known the long term history of have remained sound except for the usual cuts, kicks and accidents. I mostly train dressage horses, so perhaps less likely to have the sorts of training injuries that occur with the jumpy-gallop types. BUT I take things pretty easy with young horses and monitor as we go along.
scats
Well-Known Member
I certainly wouldnt want to break anything under the age of 3, but in the majority of cases I see nothing wrong with a 3 year old doing very basic riding out under saddle. I imagine that a horse broken at 4 or 5 but who has been hammered early on is just as likely, if not more so, to encounter future problems than a horse who has been started and ridden carefully as a 3 year old.
I was the first up on an unbroken 8 year old some years ago. That one was hard work as she mentally found the process very difficult. I suspect she had been broken previously, but badly. In the end she was fine under saddle but really needed a competent rider to take confidence from. Her owner was very nervous and didnt continue with it. Last I heard they had given it away as a companion. Around the same time I backed a friends 3 year old ID X, he took to it like a duck to water and did some very basic walk and trot work that autumn, then had the winter off and began again the following spring. He didnt canter under saddle until he was 4 but that was simply because he basically fell over his own feet every time he tried. His canter took a while to establish, I think he was nearly 5 before my friend managed to get much in the way of that. Hes now 18 and still going strong.
I was the first up on an unbroken 8 year old some years ago. That one was hard work as she mentally found the process very difficult. I suspect she had been broken previously, but badly. In the end she was fine under saddle but really needed a competent rider to take confidence from. Her owner was very nervous and didnt continue with it. Last I heard they had given it away as a companion. Around the same time I backed a friends 3 year old ID X, he took to it like a duck to water and did some very basic walk and trot work that autumn, then had the winter off and began again the following spring. He didnt canter under saddle until he was 4 but that was simply because he basically fell over his own feet every time he tried. His canter took a while to establish, I think he was nearly 5 before my friend managed to get much in the way of that. Hes now 18 and still going strong.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
I wish I had a 'like' button. I would NEVER back a 2 year old, though I know from my French vet that many are. Taking things easy, absolutely. Our very talented Shagya mare, who qualified for the National Championships in France, was backed at 4, was assessed loose jumping, did a bit of endurance but did not start jumping in competition until she was 5 years old. (The Hungarian National Stud, Babolna first break fillies to harness before they are schooled under the saddle). A CB filly backed and turned away at 3, competed in 3 x85cm club classes at the age of four. She could trot over 85cm!! Had she not been sold to an excellent home, she would have entered the same Young Horse Competition circuit at the age of 5 years but not with the aim of qualifying for Fontainebleau until aged 6 years.
Because we are small breeders and are retired we can take our time.