What do you think about Parelli?

[CASP3R]

[ QUOTE ]
I do believe that you still can compete, ride with "normal" tack and do without some of the "equipment" that is marketed and be closer to your horse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and do compete in normal tack (normal to me is a Western saddle!!)

Some people just need a little more guidance than others, and are unable to find that guidance closer to home.

 

[Rachel_M]

Let me rephrase then- I should be able to use English Style Tack and Saddlery and still be able to be close to my horse.

 

[CASP3R]

I was just defining normal

- I happen to enjoy Western riding, but i do also own and ride in an English saddle occasionally

 

[gemmah]

Absolutely, I totaly agree. Like I always say, good horsemanship is good horsemanship!
In a condensed form it is basically eg: If you were standing in front of me and i wanted you to move (assuming i cant just ask you or motion you to) i start to gently tap your shoulder. If you dont move then i will tap gradually harder and harder until you make some sort of effort. Then i will stop. The KEY thing is, if you have moved, i will tap the space that you WERE in, not where you are now. Effectively helping you to realise that it is your responsibility to move and i'm not actually 'hitting' you, just that space. A bit like if i were swinging a rope round my head and you walked into it. Not my fault. But if i just walked over to you and thonked you with the rope,my fault. The horse must always have the option to get away from the stimulus/pressure he just has to work out how. When you quit as he does the right thing, that's when he learns.
The face pulling head up, evasion etc (oops this isn't going to be brief is it! LOL) If you have always done something a certain way when someone challenges that you will resist and throw up all sorts of questions to get them to prove that what you are being asked to do is safe and right (esp if u r a horse) If dealing with a dominant horse he will test and retaliate when you speak in his language as you are effectively asking to take the leadership role from him, and obviously he will want you to prove you are worthy! If on the other hand the horse is affraid, he will do similar things (diffrnt tension in his body and faster) as if he allows you to be the leader he is, in his eyes, putting his life in your hands. Obviously he's going to throw up some potentially big questions before he is happy to do this. I hope this is of use to you miss-huggy-bear. I really am trying to bring some balanced views in here and I hope that may go some way to answering your q's. There is more to it than that but that's the general idea! LOL

 

[Tinypony]

Parelli threads always get some heated debates going!
I just wanted to say, NH doesn't equal Parelli. I know a lot of people now dismiss NH training because of their experiences of Parelli and with Parelli students. If you get the chance to see another NH practitioner in action, and it doesn't break the bank, I'd urge you to go and have a look. They can be very different, they are not all about bareback and bridleless, 7 games and 4 phases. Some are much more closely linked to the day to day things that we enjoy with our horses.
Not saying you aren't doing fine already, but I personally always find it interesting to see if there is another technique or idea I can pick up to help myself and my horses - whatever label may be attached to it.

 

[joeathh]

I went to see a demo with some free tickets for parelli and left half way through. It looked a bit like circus to me - I saw Mary Chipperfield using subtle changes in her body position to get her horse doing far more entertaining things.

Sorry Parelli not for me and agree Stoneleigh seems to 'approve' the training.

 

[ShirlJean]

Sounds like Weezy and several others don't actually know very much about what Parelli is really about and are "very" threatened by it. Fellow competitors thought I was "wrong" to start following the program many years ago, but I have never looked back and my horses love and respect me for it. I am one of the "new" users on this forum....I got the address off of the Parelli Savvy Club email. I am not surprised at the angry comments, people often feel threatened when asked to change and don't have enough information to make an informed decision. One of my favorite Parelli-isms is "don't be out collecting assets (trophies and ribbons) when your horse thinks you're an ass". Look in the eyes of most show horses and realize what they are telling you.

 

[Kate_13]

Oh I feel so threatened. LMFAO!!!!!

 

[Tinypony]

See? Geez, I'm an NH person and even I feel patronised. People here (not me) have competition horses and do well with them, so your post insinuates that their horses aren't happy and "thinks they are an ass". Look, maybe your horses were like that before Parelli, but you can't generalise that all competition horses are in that situation, and to do so alienates people.
This just illustrates to me why so many people get turned off Parelli without getting beyond the fancy demos with loud music and the fanatical students.
It isn't all like this. I'm thinking of a demo that I saw when I was in Australia. Local natural horsemanship style trainer was at the equivalent of the county show. He did 3 short demos, and in the last one he put on his cowboy hat, saddled up his best horse, and gave a lovely demo of soft and beautiful riding. His horse worked long and low, then was picked up into a great outline, then went long and low, he did lateral work, piaffe and western spins. And it was all nice, calm and understated, in an electric tape pen rigged up off the side of his trailer. At the end there were dressage people queueing up to speak to him, because they wanted to know how.
I'm just saying, NH is sooo much more than Parelli, and I believe good NH style trainers have a lot to offer. They are easy to miss, but there are others visiting the UK that you could see, it might be worth it.

 

[CASP3R]

Well said

 

[Kate_13]

I have to say that some of the parelli followers have come on here and given some balanced arguments and for that I respect them.

However, what makes me laugh and I do mean laugh lots is that most of the parelli posts have been slanderous and for people that have supposedly seen the light and become better people (as what you have said), you don't seem better people at all!!! I suggest you go read phase 69 of the manual or whatever it is!

Still LMFAO!

 

[ThomasTank]

Sounds like a bit of a cult to me

 

[gemmah]

LOL kudu! Sadly I would have to agree! Hope I havn't said nethin 2 offend ne1.

Let common sense prevail! (Yeh, in our dreams! LMFAO!!

)

 

[Banana]

I have had a good amount of experience with both the traditional and PNH methods of training. If it’s natural horsemanship it should be natural horsemanship without the brand. There are so many deserving horsemen and women out there. ‘Parelli’ is a great marketing tool, Pat and Linda have taken information from the likes of Troy Henry, Ray Hunt, Tom and Bill Dorrance to name a few and put it into a learning format. And it’s great for those who want it.

As for the Parelli’s basing themselves at Stoneleigh, in my opinion there should be a ‘natural’ (I say this a little tongue in cheek as it should really be a study of horse psychology) presence at Stoneleigh, but it should not be a Brand name. Natural horsemanship or whatever you want to call it is not a discipline but a foundation that all horseowners should have a basic knowledge of and how we come about that knowledge differs for all of us and we all know people who are more natural with horses than others and this can be seen through all the disciplines.

 

[mystiandsunny]

For the PNH people reading this discussion who think theirs is the only way (not for the other, sensible ones

), consider that the horse will choose his/her path in life also.

For example: When my horse was turned out into a large field with a little pony, they became friends. On leading them to and from the field each day (so I could ride and pony wasn't on her own), we established discipline (i.e. you don't kick my horse, nor do you try to eat grass or run off when I'm in charge). Over time, pony saw that I turned up every day, and brought nice things (a kind word, fly spray). At some point she decided she wanted to be part of my horse and I's proper herd. She went from being bitey and horrid to sweet and nuzzly, and eventually won me over to the point where I bought her.

My bf used to groom her and help to look after her, and she liked him. After he had learned to ride and was more confident around horses, she decided to turn her wiles on him, and became possessive of him in a nice way, looking for him, whinnying and running to the gate when he arrived etc. When he first sat on her she turned from a typical strong willed youngster, to a complete beginner's pony, looking after him completely.

Where is the need for PNH there? The relationship began because she decided it would; she chose her human and won him over.

 

[Skhosu]

Most show horses are not happy.. I'm assuming you refer to competition horses...so how do these riders force them to jump? To do dressage? Because owning a 14.2hh pony who declines to do what asked regularly, I faily to see how they manage this.
(I might add..since I did join up and taught him to bow he has become much mroe keen to compete...but still decides how much we do)

 

[Tina33]

[ QUOTE ]
.
This just illustrates to me why so many people get turned off Parelli without getting beyond the fancy demos with loud music and the fanatical students.
It isn't all like this. I'm thinking of a demo that I saw when I was in Australia. Local natural horsemanship style trainer was at the equivalent of the county show. He did 3 short demos, and in the last one he put on his cowboy hat, saddled up his best horse, and gave a lovely demo of soft and beautiful riding. His horse worked long and low, then was picked up into a great outline, then went long and low, he did lateral work, piaffe and western spins. And it was all nice, calm and understated, in an electric tape pen rigged up off the side of his trailer. At the end there were dressage people queueing up to speak to him, because they wanted to know how.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have just described Pat before Linda came into the picture. Then Linda came along and turned Parelli into the marketing circus that it is today. I believe Pat's original intent was to work with elite horsemen and women. I don't think he ever imagined he would have a following of fearful, middle-aged women with large disposable incomes.

All one really needs to do is read Pat's original book to see what an incredible horseman he is.

Linda is a marketing genius, but I do believe she has turned Parelli into the strange cult that it is today. I often wonder if Pat is living his dream. Clearly Linda is.

 

[RuthR]

As with everything there is a balance - there are many horses who enjoy their job but there are many others who don't for what ever reason.

You can learn to orchestrate a horse to get it to do something - but it often results in a displaced behaviour eg tail swishing, teeth grinding, or worse the horse just goes inside itself and becomes a robot (think of a lot of riding school ponies). If you carefully watch showjumpers or dressage riders (even at the top level) there are unhappy horses showing these behaviours - but on the other side there are horses who love their job.

Horses have their own personnalities so you will have some who are extremly forgiving and will try for you no matter what (my pony is like this) and you get others who say 'why should I?' - this was my horse! Parelli has helped me to understand what makes this horse tick and we have created a strong bond and he is starting to offer to do things for me. When your horse starts offering things then it makes it very easy to shape that into what you want.

 

[Valeriecarol]

I have studied Parelli for 2 years with my young horse. As a result she has turned into a calm, loving, willing and brave horse. The changes Parelli has made to her and to me have been fantastic. We still have lot to learn and to achieve but I know that by following the programme we will get there. I would urge people to open their minds a little and understand more about it before dismissing it.

 

[Sparklet]

Hi, just for the sake of a balance argument can you give some more info on horses used in various disciplines by Parelli followers:

Which riding schools only teach Parelli?

Who are the Parelli top show-jumpers?

Who are the Parelli GP dressage riders?

And although not mentioned in your post also Parelli Event riders?

It would be really interesting to know who has been able to combine Parelli techniques and still remain at the top of their career - you would imagine that such a sucessful system would produce more than a handful of top riders?

 

[gemmah]

Hi PNH student again! (a propper 1). Unfortunately I feel compelled to post again (help I'm becoming a computer freak! LOL) Whilst several pnh people have posted sensible things, some of what I have seen from PNH students ( and here I do use the term losely) has been discustingly rude and completely ridiculous! To imply that other peoples horses hate, them, that they don't have a good relationship, and even that their horse thinks they are an ass, is appalling and very hurtful!! Yes, SOME competition horses DO have that look in their eyes, but by NO means ALL of them! And to make judgements such as these when it is highly unlikely that you have seen ANY of the horses belonging to people on this board, i feel, is rather offensive. And believe me, I have seen many PNH students, again term used losely, who's horses quite obviously think THEY are an ass!!
Kudu had it right when saying go back and look at page 69 of the manual! Only I can accurately direct you to a very good place to start! Try level 1 pack, theory guide, 6 keys to success. (Attitude, knowledge, tools, techniques, time and imagination) Namely 1 ATTITUDE. quite obviously in some of you it needs MASSIVE adjustments. And 2, KNOWLEDGE. Seek it, absorb it and USE it! From ALL sources. Some I would reccomend are Ray Hunt (the legend!) Tom and Bill Dorrance, Buck Branaman, Mark Rashid, Ronnie Willis, Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Equine Ethology, Carl Hester, Tim Stockdale, Pippa Funnell, John Whittaker. The list goes on! And of course, but not only, Pat and Linda Parelli. There is so much knowledge to be gained, even if it is not something you chose to apply, and to close yor mind to that is only going to be detimental to yourselves and your horses!
Going back to Parelli though, are we not taught that the results we get from our horses are directly in relation to what we do or don't do with them and our level of 'savvy'? In Linda's words, 'our horse is our mirror' and that this also applies to our human relationships too? Does it not bother you then that people refer to PNH students as 'clones' 'a cult' or 'like scientologists' to name but a few?!! Surely, to paraphrase Linda you would 'step back, and think hmmm, how interesting, I wonder what I did to cause that response/reaction!' I am affraid that to me, the answer is horribly obvious.
I have found PNH to be a fantastic programme. I chose it as it is easy to access and understand, and has a wealth of knowledge and info. to share. It is NOT, however, hugely different to what other horsemen do (just better explained perhaps) It is NOT anything new (As Pat will tell you himself!) and it is certainly NOT the only way! I only hope that anyone who may have been slightly interested has not been put off such a great programme because of the poor representation given by a few narrow minded followers, and that they will seek out, and find, the the TRUE concepts and methods behind the commercialised label that is PARELLI!

 

[ann-jen]

I think, but could be wrong, that David and Karen O'Connor do Parelli.

 

[RuthR]

Hi,

Dressage Riders = Walter Zettl and Luis Lucio http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/news.html http://www.luislucio.com/english/doma-nat/index.htm

Showjumpers - Luca Moneta (can't find an english website for him as he is Italian!)

Event Riders - Karen and David O'Connor were very good friends with the Parellis and did several demos with them a few years ago but they have since parted. Mainly I think because the O'Connors wanted to put 'Parelli' into their own form. As far as know it was an amicable split (I don't know the ins and outs of it all...nor do I want to).

Craig Johnston (US Reining Champion) is also very good friends with Pat and Linda.

Also on the dressage front check out: http://www.dressagenaturally.net/ Karen Rohlf was a top dressage rider who has since become a Parelli Associate instructor - she combines Parelli teaching with dressage training with great sucess.

I hope that is the sort of thing you are looking for.

 

[Sparklet]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Dressage Riders = Walter Zettl and Luis Lucio http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/news.html http://www.luislucio.com/english/doma-nat/index.htm

Showjumpers - Luca Moneta (can't find an english website for him as he is Italian!)

Event Riders - Karen and David O'Connor were very good friends with the Parellis and did several demos with them a few years ago but they have since parted. Mainly I think because the O'Connors wanted to put 'Parelli' into their own form. As far as know it was an amicable split (I don't know the ins and outs of it all...nor do I want to).

Craig Johnston (US Reining Champion) is also very good friends with Pat and Linda.

Also on the dressage front check out: http://www.dressagenaturally.net/ Karen Rohlf was a top dressage rider who has since become a Parelli Associate instructor - she combines Parelli teaching with dressage training with great sucess.

I hope that is the sort of thing you are looking for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting links however things are never quite as clear as they seem:

Walter Zettl's only reference to Parelli on his web site is an open letter he wrote about Pat and Linda Parelli after they had invited him to instruct them, describing them as wonderful students.

Luis Lucio acknowledges the Parelli's as friends and recommends their methods, however he does not state that he uses the method to any greater degree than he uses the help given to him by Anky. It is not clear if he uses the technique in competative riding.

Karen Rohlf was successful before he discovered Parelli and again there is no evidence of her continuing in competition since she changed career to that of Parelli trainer.

David and Karen O'Conner have abandoned the Parelli methods preferring their own.

I am astonished that there are so few riders. I'm not knocking Parelli techniques but your earlier post did comment in the swishing tail and grinding teeth in the dressage horse, however Parelli does not really come up with any alternatives other than to cease doing dressage. I would love to see a Parelli afficionardo who has been able to produce a sucessful dressage horse (obviously the non teeth grinding/tail swishing variety).

 

[Sparklet]

duplicate post deleted

 

[RuthR]

I must disagree on some points you mentioned. Luis Lucio's horse Titanic was started by a Pareli professional and has Luis has started competing him.

"The five years old spanish breed stallion owned by Alvaro Domecq "Titanic", finished 4th in the Final of 5 yeras old horses in this important International Dressage meeting that held three International dressage competitions in south of Spain.

Titanic was doing its first show in Montenmedio and the progression of marks were quite interesting.
After showing its strong stallion caracther, 40% in the first test, "Titanic" improved till the end getting the 4th position in the Final of the 5 years old horses.

Marietta Whitages , IO Judge in the finals, said:
"..Titanic was the best horse saw in the class and needed more experience in competitions to get the top standart of marks we are waiting in the futur..."

"Titanic" is a interesting project runned by Pat & Linda Parelli and Luis Lucio to get to the top International Dressage Competitions a spanish stallion trained with both methodes at the same time, Parelli Natural horsmanship and traditional Dressage training."

Taken from: http://www.luislucio.com/english/doma/res_con.htm

It wasn't on the inital link though so my apologies for that. The reason I posted Walter Zettl was because he is an absolute master of the art of dressage and horsemanship in general. He's friendship with Pat and Linda is coming through in the Parelli teaching as they help their students to advance their riding skills. The fact that he found the Parelli's so easy to teach I think also shows the worth of the foundation the Parelli system can give you and your horse.

Parelli, as said before, is not a discpline - it gives you a foundation to build on. The Parelli's are not against competing - they just want people to have good horsemanship first. They aren't dressage trainers or showjumpers or eventers - their strenghts are understanding horse behaviour and that is what they are teaching people.

I believe Karen Rohlf hasn't started competing again because she found the Parelli system so powerful she decided to teach others rather than go back to competing.

 

[Sparklet]

Ok a bit more info to assess.....you have identified one horse which came 5th in the 5 year old classes (out of what?) who initially got a 40% score but inproved........which the judge described as being 'the best horse saw in the class and needed more experience in competitions'. As 5 year old classes are judged on their paces and attitude I suspect because the judge mentioned lack of experience the issue must have been the attitude which isnt exactly a grand recommedation of their training methods when viewed against traditional dressage horse training methods.

You say Parelli is not a discipline but a foundation to build upon then in an earlier post make comparisons with the swishy tail and gnashing teeth of the dressage horse suggesting that they parelli system would be a better way, however can provide no evidence to substantiate that. You were the one that compared a discipline with the err.... 'foundation'.

Competitative riders are, shall we say, highly competative. Its their bread and butter, they tend to be driven focussed individuals. Believe me if Parelli could be shown to produce better results, more harmony, a better connection you would be able to list reams and reams of riders who use the sytem, however you are able to proffer two riders with claims to grandeur which are certainly up for debate.

Natual horsemanship in itself gives endless pleasure to riders who might have otherwise thrown in the towel. It formalises handing of horses that the rest of us have been using successfully for decades in slightly different formats and give those who need a bit of help a structured system which they can use.

Sadly my personal experience has with NH advocates has been a bunch of rude bargey horses with ineffective, weak handlers who spend months trying to achive the same thing that the rest of us expect from our horses as a basic.

To be told by our resident yard Parelli 'expert' that I force my horse into the box - when in fact she strolls up the ramp day after day after day, measured against watching her for two years trying to persuade her extremely fat cob into a trailer which is clearly too narrow (why not take the partition out you idiot) without success does give me a wry smile. She never got to the shutting the door bit.

Now I have always believed in 'each for his own' and would never have dreamt of telling that her way was not exactly working, however she used every opportunity available to 'preach' her way to any that would listen. Sadly this seems to be the way of most converts that instead of just enjoying their discipline (see I call it one because I actually believe it is) they spout on about how cruel and unenlightened the rest of us are like a manic jehovah's witness. So please for the sake of the cruel enlightened rest of us stop talking about it, just do it.

 

[Gingernags]

[ QUOTE ]
you will be missing a wonderful opportunity for your horses.

[/ QUOTE ]

No - we won't.

This sums up for me what I really hate about Parelli. Just because I don't do it or want to do it - and yes thank you I have a good understanding and have seen it in practice - does NOT mean I'm missing anything.

There is nothing wrong with my relationship woth my horse, nothing Parelli could improve.

As far as I'm concerned that should be the end of the subject - but no - you get preached at by Parelli followers that if you don't do Parelli you are wrong and evil.

No, I'm not, I just prefer my methods.

Honestly its as bad as Jehovahs Witnesses - and directly comparable sometimes! I do NOT expect other peoples religions or methods in horsemanship - to be shoved down my throat.

Everyone is welcome to their own religion/opinion/whatever - just don't preach at the others who don't want to know.

No-one is right and wrong in this argument - just do your own thing and be happy with it, don't doorstep people and insist they convert!

 

[wizzi901]

think I am just about to throw up!!!

Parelli has its place, its not for everyone, yes I have tried it and thought it was a complete waste of money.

I can achieve results i want just by offering any of my 3 carrots for good behaviour, they all do everything I ask of them.

If you want to spend your money and you gain from doing parelli then great, if you dont want to there are other ways and those ways are JUST AS good, parelli is not the be all and end all.

 

[IrishCobsRule]

I have been to a Parelli demonstration and sat petrified in a crowd over 2,000 people who thought he was god! To me it was like being caught up in a cult where Parelli's methods alone were acceptable and 'traditional' methods were evil. Pat Parelli himself slagged of dressage to the crowd. Ferdi Eilberg gave a dressage demonstration. The Parelli fans were however not impressed and many simply wandered off or sat there muttering while I sat with my eyes glued to the demonstration of true harmony and fluidity between horse and rider which actually made the whole trip worthwhile for me.
My opinion from the whole experience (stress MY opinion from MY experience) was that the people attending were following Parelli to the letter as other 'traditional' routes hadn't worked for them - most of those I spoke to came to horse ownership as adults and most seemed (again MY opinion) to have been slightly duped into buying an unsuitable horse. When you sit back and look at Parelli's methods it is clear why some of the less experienced people go all in - they try some of the games and realise that for the first time they are having a better experience with their horses.
I also met competition riders who were there for the same reasons as I was - to have a looksee and to come away with some new ideas/thoughts to mull over.
Having read through the books it is clear to me that the early stuff is really about teaching people how to read their horses body language and how to stay safe and to think about how you move around animals and the quality of the touch you use - all good sommon sense advice - which very quickly shows positive results - most of us instinctively know horses appreciate quiet calm handling and soft petting rather than big thumping whacks - but remember some people need to be taught.
Unfortunately many Parelli fans get stuck at level 2 and are happy to stay there and extoll the virtues of Parelli and slag off 'traditional' riding methods (they appear to have a particular hatred of Dressage) - not complete the programme and progress their riding and get out competing or even just happy hacking etc. They get stuck where they do because of their own lack of understanding of what 'horsemanship' is. Their criticism of 'traditional' riding/schooling methods is based on their experiences and lets be honest for every good BHS/'traditional' instructor out there we all know there are several more really crappy ones who do no-one any favours.
We all also know a great Horseman (or Horsewoman) in real life - The One that we secretly aspire to be as good as. The ones you think of and think of as 'Naturally' talented. Have you ever asked these people what their secret is? I guarantee that more often than not they'll tell you that they continue to learn every day and thay they'll only stop learning about horses the day they die.
I think that Parelli and other 'NH' methods can be useful for teaching people to behave more 'naturally' around horses BUT we all need to be aware that:
there is no one wonder method where animals are concerned
there is no quick fix solution to a particular problem
labelling such methods 'Natural Horsemanship' implies that everything else is 'UN-natural which is very very wrong.
To finish (sorry this is a bit rambling) - to me a natural horseman is someone who has a natural gift - someone who has learnt their skill from from all the horses they've worked with and someone who admits that they are never finished learning.
I guess what Im really trying to say is that - none of us should nail our colours to the mast in favour of one method or another - I believe that the Parelli stuff is not for me (I find the 'fans' too scary for one!) - although through my reading, demo attending and dvd watching as with every other method I've looked at I hope I've learned something!