What do you think about Parelli?

[IrishCobsRule]

I think you'll have to agree that Maria E's results are quite impressive too. It was Ferdi' himself's riding demo I was referring to - I saw a relaxed, willing, happy horse with floppy ears - it appears that we both interpreted something different from it - so how about we agree to disagree on that one?
The EE conference the following year sounds interesting and I like your description of Carl H working with the horses:
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] Now while he doesn't use parelli or EE specifically, he had a very natural appoach with his horses, he used 'natural' (for want of a better word, sorry) principles, ie release and reward the slightest try, let the horses express themselves, and was not critical or demanding if they made a mistake.

As I said in my first post in this thread - to me a 'natural horseman' is someone who has a natural gift - someone who has learnt their skill from from all the horses they've worked with and someone who admits that they are never finished learning. Pat Parelli has used the phrase Natural Horse.Man.Ship as a marketing tool for his particular method of training that he has cleverly and very successfully marketed - it is how people have interpreted/embraced it that is so contentious.

 

[Grumpy Herbert]

Each to their own, I guess, but it does seem a bit of a rip off. I mean, paying good money for an orange painted stick is just mad! My own feelings are that people should just spend time and get to know their horses (not necessarily from on board), and build up trust - common sense! No amount of gimmicks will make you brave if you're not or a good rider if you're not. Know your own limitations and work within them.

 

[RuthR]

I believe the horse was about 6/6 and a half years old. Charlotte had only had him about 6 months though and had a done a lot of work on getting him confident and 'solid' - he was a very spooky, scared horse when she got him (and I'm sure you'll agree there was a lot of him!

) To me 6 years old is still quite young and that was what I was refering to...sorry if that was unclear. I'm not sure if he had been evented or not by that point but he'd certainly not been in front of 2/3,000 people before!

I believe the reason why there was such a negative reaction to the 'noseband insident' is as follows. Most of the people who were there were there to see Pat and Linda. During Linda's demo she stated: 'We don't ride with nosebands because we want the feedback that you can get from the mouth. If a horse is crosing its jaw its telling you something and you need to change your plan to get the horse soft in the mouth again.' So when Ferdi pulled the horse into the centre and said 'I'm going to tighten the noseband because he is grinding his jaw' it was like showing a red flag to a bull! I personnally can't remember much of the detail of that demo so if you remember anything more clearly please correct me but that seems to be what I took away from the demo.

But I feel that as Ferdi was asking more of the horse he was bound to show some tension (or whatever you want to call it) while he figured out what was being asked of him. I personally feel that maybe the same result could have been acheived by leaving the noseband as it was and just giving the horse a bit more time to sort himself out. Thats just my opinion.

The chestnut horse that you speak of I think did a beautiful job. Yes Linda did say that he needed more muscle along his topline but also said that probably his saddle wasn't helping matters. I think the changes that Linda made to that horse during such a short space of time were really profound and I took a lot away from that demo. I also loved the way that horse sidepassed over to linda to let her get on from the barrel. That was a horse who wanted to be ridden

I believe that you are right - we will see a huge difference this August. For one Pat and Linda will have their own horses from the US over with them. I've never had the privilidge to see their horses in real life but I'm really looking forward to it.

 

[claremac]

Hello everyone
I've read some of these posts with interest.

If Parelli is pointless because it is just good old horse common sense, why isn't there more good old horse common sense about?

Why as an independent nutritionist am I inundated with owners desperate to find a feed or supplement to help their problem horse (fizzy, bolshy, bolts, rears, can't catch, can't ride, pulls, naps, won't leave herd mates, can't load, doesn't travel well, aggresive, lazy, won't go forward under saddle... etc etc).

Seems to me that many owners need help with their horse-sense/horsemanship (because feed and supplements aren't going to help, despite what labelling might claim!!).

Enjoy your horses everyone,
Best wishes
Clare

 

[Panther]

completely agree but not parelli part.. soz...

feed companies market their products as a cure all, fact is many horses are now over fed especially grain... people are brought into it...

doesn't mean over priced "natural" horse instruction is the answer..

unfortunately we live in a culture where people believe they can own a horse but know very little about them!
with so many riding schools closing it really doesn't help matters..

 

[Talan]

"I also loved the way that horse sidepassed over to linda to let her get on from the barrel. That was a horse who wanted to be ridden"
Don't you realise that Parelli horses do these things because they have been trained to? A Parelli horse learns to sidepass by having 4 phases of pressure applied to it's body. Parelli operates on the principle that if they horse doesn't do as you wish then you make sure that you tell them firmly (or hard) enough so that they do. So the horse sidepassed towards the barrel because over the course of it's training it had learnt that not doing what was asked would have fairly severe consequences.
Why does Parelli liberty work? Because the horses are taught to "hide their hinds" or have them wopped with a stick or popper on the string.
Why does a Yo Yo "game" work? Because the horse has learnt that if it doesn't back off from a waggling finger it might get the rope swung so hard that the heavy metal clip hits it around the face. I could go on...
I'm not saying it doesn't work, or even that it's wrong, but please recognise what you are seeing. It is the product of a careful and exact training process, not a lot of horses prancing and moving about from free will.

 

[Panther]

hurray!!!!!!!!! Talan... yes!! people don't realise it's not "natural" it's training.... or near of roboting - many de sensitized horses i have met have huge hang ups or have no personality left to them!!!!!!!!

poor buggers!

it is still using force or fear!!!

 

[RuthR]

Ok...yes I do know what I'm seeing. Parelli works on the principles of herd interactions. You watch horses out in a field together and they play games....dominace games...games of who moves who. And sometimes those games get rough - horses will kick and bite. Sometimes they will kick hard enough to break bone - thats horses, thats their way of life.

So yes, we go through 4 phases but the first phase is extremely light. I don't see how thats any different to someone asking for something with their leg and then backing it up with a stick? The reason liberty works is not through *making* a horse doing things (you try doing it that way and you'll end up in either serious danger or you horse will just run off!) its by building up a relationship to where your horse *wants* to be with you. Liberty shows you the quality of your relationship - it tells you the truth.

That horse wanted to do that. Its not that he's been conditioned to do it. The expression on that horses face was one of confidence and relaxation. Linda didn't even have to ask him to move over - he offered. If he wanted to he could have walked off.

 

[Gingernags]

[ QUOTE ]


Why as an independent nutritionist am I inundated with owners desperate to find a feed or supplement to help their problem horse (fizzy, bolshy, bolts, rears, can't catch, can't ride, pulls, naps, won't leave herd mates, can't load, doesn't travel well, aggresive, lazy, won't go forward under saddle... etc etc).



[/ QUOTE ]

Because more and more owners now are just buying a horse with not enough knowledge, not having the benefit of old style riding schools where they'd teach you to muck out and you'd help out for rides and pick up skills.

Now any old numpty can buy a horse that is beyond their skills, then blame feed/saddle/weather or whatever and latch on a nice package like Parelli as they can buy it, it looks pretty with strings and orange sticks etc and it fits their idea of what they want and how great they will be - but they think its a quick fix when its not.

The only answer is always - work at it, spend the time with your horse, and get help if you can't manage.

Sadly as we said, natural horsemanship may be sense according to some of us, but not every one has the common sense they were born with...!

 

[Tina33]

[ QUOTE ]
"I also loved the way that horse sidepassed over to linda to let her get on from the barrel. That was a horse who wanted to be ridden"
.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO it isn't about a horse who wants to be ridden, it is about a horse who doesn't want it's hiney whacked with a phase four! My horse sidepasses to me as I sit on a fence and that is how I trained her to do it, per instructions from a certified Parelli instructor. I originally studied Parelli, but found that it uses far too much negative reinforcement. That is what the carrot stick is all about. Do this to avoid this.

If you want so see a truly horrendous example of Linda misreading a horse watch the trailer loading segment of the Liberty and Horse Behavior program. It is three hours of her mentally abusing a horse. There are many moments where she should have retreated where she didn't. The horse did eventually get in the trailer but it was akin to someone jumping out of a building because the building was on fire. Just wanted to get away from the torture.

There are other things about Parelli that are just plain wrong. I do believe Pat has a gift, an understanding of horses that comes to him naturally. But the program has been distorted for the sake of marketing.

They teach their own pseudo-psychology and misuse and make up terms constantly. One of the things that frustrates me is their use of the term right-brained and left brained. It shows a totally misunderstanding of animal psychology and how the brain works. I imagine it is one of the reasons that Stephanie Burns no longer collaborates with them. They are not experts or educated in this field, yet they charge people thousands of dollars to attend classes at their schools in Florida and Colorado. I know young women who are foregoing college in order to go to the Parelli school, where they are being fed inaccurate information about basic animal behavior.

 

[phaseone]

Hmmm some interesting comments on this forum. I won’t say on both sides, since the sides appear to be somewhat blurred.

Sometime in 1984, I remember going to a clinic in Surrey. A well known showjumper put on a fascinating display of horse and harmony. The horse ran loose in the arena, jumping any obstacle he was asked to jump. At about the same time I became aware of an amazing guy form the USA, Monty Roberts. It did not occur to me at the time that Monty’s technique was so different from the showjumper I saw. What I recognised at the time was an ability to communicate with the horse. Positive communication and partnership is important to me. I suspect on that level, most of us want the same thing.

When I think of the many horse owners I have met in recent years, scores of them have been caring, able riders who love their horses. A far higher number have not displayed these qualities. Each show season, I drive past a pony whose head is tied down to its chest all day, every day, in preparation for showing. Many of you have spoken about common sense. My suspicion is that if good horsemanship really was common sense, then this spectacle would not be seen and none of us would have need of instructors at all. Not too long ago, a woman was at our yard who was so hostile, her Dutch warmblood mare probably thought her name was f****** b**ch! Both of the above owners were no strangers to the RSPCA, but this fact was something to boast about and not be ashamed of, apparently.

I know a professional trainer who has racks of bosals, 45ft lines, rope hackamores. To him the equipment isn’t ‘natural’ it is HIS ‘normal.’ Luis Lucio, the Spanish Grand Prix Dressage rider uses Parelli techniques with his horses to improve lightness and communication. His website is worth looking at. David and Karen O’ Connor also practice ‘natural horsemanship’ techniques. The best example of bridleless riding I have seen was David’s display at the Kentucky 4*, on The Future of Horsemanship video.

Parelli himself says that his method isn’t better than anything else, just different.

 

[Panther]

yes but the trouble is most of the pro agruments site odd stories about people who are just bad horsemen, iggnorant, stupid or just plain nasty and are traditional horsemen.

the agruement about parelli is about a system that is there for all to read.. black and white and sorry is mostly just plain wrong or bullying.. submission... submission.... or whack!!

I am not saying it doesn't get results... i am just saying i do not agree with it....

I've had horses difficult to load it takes time and presevrence.. not 3 hours bullying....quick fix... that is not natural nor sympathetic!! you must be blind!!!

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
I've had horses difficult to load it takes time and presevrence.. not 3 hours bullying....quick fix... that is not natural nor sympathetic!! you must be blind!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse me Panther, just who are you calling blind? There is no reason why the subject of 'natural' vs 'traditional' should be so emotive. There's good and bad practice in both, but, my belief is that there's a lot of people doing the best they can for their horses between the two extremes.

The point you make about 3 hours of bullying, I cannot defend. I have seen the trailer loading mentioned earlier and I was personally disgusted by it. That's hard to admit as someone who has studied this method for many years now. We all make mistakes and Pat and Linda do admit to having made a few along the way.

On the subject of trailer loading though, I was present one day at a show when my friend's horse refused to load. He knew the seven games in a basic way but hated to be rushed. He was being hurried along and was resisting. A quantum savvy instructor turned up and loaded the horse after about twenty minutes of rushing about and making the horse so desperate for a rest that it shot into the trailer! Yes, as you say, it worked. Was it an example of good horsemanship?

 

[Talan]

Just bear in mind that most natural horsemanship style trainers don't claim to have invented anything, so you would expect other horsemen to have the same equipment in their tackroom... Keep going on about how so-and-so does the same thing doesn't seem to prove any points to me. Pat Parelli says "This is so old it's new".
OK, on things like sidepassing horses. I don't think a carrot stick is any better or worse than any other stick, what I do think is that some people kid themselves about how they use their stick. (Even the "friendly game" is a firm approach to de-sensitisation). You can see alert and relaxed expressions on horses that have been trained with Parelli, of course you can, that is probably because the horse is confident that it knows what is being asked of it, and can do it. However, that does not alter one bit the way the horse was originally taught, when they didn't understand what, for example, wagging your phase 1 finger at them meant. I know because I too have been taught it. You use whatever it takes - phase 4 can be pretty drastic - to make your horse move when you want it to. The result is that the horse gets responsive and reacts as soon as it sees you "phase 1" in future - because it knows the consequences if it doesn't. That is how the liberty horses learn to react to the slightest movement from their handlers, that is why a Parelli horse moves it's arse out the way sharpish when you tip your head towards it, and why they move their front end over as soon as you raise your fingertips towards their head.
I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm saying call a spade a spade. You may have great relationships with your horses, but you got there by following a firm and assertive training method.
I would say the same about Monty Roberts and his teachers. How anyone can claim that they are "whispering" and using a gentle approach, when they are prepared to pull horses about in pressure halters, tie dummies to their backs, force them to load with panels all around... beats me.

I'm not saying any of this is wrong, because at the end of the day all of these people, at least the ones who do things properly according to the system, end up with responsive and safe horses. But I don't see how any of you can come on to a forum like this and accuse others of using forceful or stressful methods with their horses, it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black in my view.

 

[Panther]

no it wasn't just happy owners...

the remark "are you blind" was not at you in person or to your comment itself but in general re: parelli... are not Parelli worshippers blind?? seeing things just how they want to... wrapped in cotton wool, feeling safe with the words natural??

I was told by a "trainer" once about difficult loading when an in-hand youngster decided he didn't want to go onto trailer, he wasn't being naughty.. he was enjoying the sights the sounds the smell of fresh horses... she did admit/say it would take 20mins and then he would say for god sake leave me alone i will go in the bloody trailer for peace, i said P*ss o**!
years later he loads still happily with no fear!!!

good horsemanship!!

 

[Panther]

have to add why on earth would i want an 2 yr old so plagued and pestered by me/humans that he does it to switch off??? to escape me???

bewildering??

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
Just bear in mind that most natural horsemanship style trainers don't claim to have invented anything, so you would expect other horsemen to have the same equipment in their tackroom... Keep going on about how so-and-so does the same thing doesn't seem to prove any points to me. Pat Parelli says "This is so old it's new".

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the point of mentioning it Talan. People who practice Parelli aren't from Mars. Most of the techniques would be very familiar to any horseman from the Americas, Spain, Portugal and beyond. Perhaps the 'new' part is that a programme has been produced and packaged so that previously inaccessible information is now available to us. Parelli may be the first to mass market the 'product' but others aren't far behind.

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
the remark "are you blind" was not at you in person or to your comment itself but in general re: parelli... are not Parelli worshippers blind??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's good

I know that there are Parelli followers so passionate that they cannot permit themselves to question what they see. But, increasingly this happens are people progress through the programme. This would be right wouldn't it? It is healthy to question what we do.

It is interesting though Panther, that you referred to worshipping and others have done so too. Maybe it has something to do with the isolation students can experience when they make a decision to study the Parelli method. This makes us behave in a certain way. Perhaps increases our isolation. We do, after all, look quite rediculous at the start, when learning rope skills and so on

 

[Talan]

Sorry P_P - I get your point now.

 

[Panther]

exactly passive persistence... they can get sooo agressive... soo challenging of others.. you are not doing things naturally... blahh... blahhh...

yes herd instincts dicate agressive behavoiur but i am not a horse!!! i want to ride him... channel his energy... spirit.... and ability...

mutal love and respect builds great partnerships... not bullying...!!!!

no doubt a "talented rider" can bully a "talented horse" to acheive much.. but that is simply not good nor natural horsemanship! note horse MAN ship.... not horseship IE pretend to be horse!!!

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
exactly passive persistence... they can get sooo agressive... soo challenging of others.. you are not doing things naturally... blahh... blahhh...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, good point. It is like (kind of anyway)a reformed smoker going on and on about the risk of cancer..... Now that their view has changed and they feel so different -in a positive way- they start to needle others. People need to be free to make their own choices don't they?

 

[Panther]

yep... but the machine is moving to town!!!! (or stoneleigh) and out of the window goes common sense!

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
herd instincts dicate agressive behavoiur but i am not a horse!!! i want to ride him... channel his energy... spirit.... and ability...

mutal love and respect builds great partnerships... not bullying...!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally

. Aggression by the human towards the horse leads to fear and intimidation of the horse. Your goal of mutual love, respect, partnership couldn't exist or thrive if the horse was crushed into submission could it? I hope that working with, and not against, a horse's energy, spirit and ability -as you suggested- is the ultimate goal for many of us.

As for bullying. I hate that! Too much of it in the human world as it is

 

[Panther]

money.... it's all money and profits nothing else!

passive is perhaps a good name for you and thats how it should be... build passive relationship first and progress...

in an un handled youngster i aim at tollerance and move from there... no pressure... they have to learn we are to be trusted... I am not going to jump that ditch it's scarcey mum... yes you are cos you can do it and i would ask you if you couldn't sweet heart so lets go!!

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
but the machine is moving to town!!!! (or stoneleigh) and out of the window goes common sense!

[/ QUOTE ]

Panther

Surely we need to coexist. Since I have no idea about the georaphical location of the new office except that it not too far from Birmingham, it doesn't matter to me where Parelli sets up.

My guess is that most horse owners have never had cause to go the the BHS HQ and don't particularly care where it is.

If the BHS HQ was just over the fence from Parelli (so to speak) that might actually prove very interesting, don't you think?

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
passive is perhaps a good name for you and thats how it should be... build passive relationship first and progress...

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that what Parelli, Mark Rashid, Leslie Desmond and others all teach? Perhaps Leslie Desmond and Bill Dorrance put more emphasis on being slow and passive though, especially at the start, when doing anything new.

 

[sqippa]

Sorry but have to step in there.
Paralli works by positive reward as well as negative!

Whenever the horse responds in the correct way they are rewarded with physical affection otherwise known as 'The friendly game'. One of the first games you learn is to find your horses favourite spots. Most of us already know them any way but we are then encouraged to use these to reward... a much better reward surely than food treats that many people use.

As with any training technique/programme...call it what you will, there are positive and negative sides, no one has yet come up with the perfect way. And sadly the success depends on the person who uses the technique. It doesn't matter what programme a person uses whether it is Parelli, Monty's stuff, Kelly Marks, or any other ideal way even BHS...they can all be abused by ignorant and cruel people. Don't blame a programme for a weakness in human nature.

I find it really quite anmazing how worked up and aggressive people can get when some one mentions Parelli... there are some very strongly opinioned people on here. I thought twice before even reading this thread as I was concerned that I would be shocked by what I read...I was right. Guys can't we just pass on own own personal experiences politely and leave it at that?

So here goes:
I have used Parelli with great success with my boy. I have owned my 2 horses for 12 years and consider mysellf to be a kind and practical owner. I took up Parelli to keep me and my boy amused over a winter when he was unable to be ridden. It was great fun for both of us. We had no issues with behaviour, we just wanted something to while away the hours. However to my pleasure I found that whilst working on Parelli our relationship improved even further, he was even more of a love than he already was! I also went to a Ross Simpson Parelli clinic when he was based in Mayfield. Had a great weekend and shared a great experience with like minded owners. Most were like me, looking for something different to do, some needed more help with their horse but everyone worked very much with the use of positive reinforcement as well as increasing level of 'ask' or 'pressure' (from a light fingertip touch to a prod to a hard prod and bang). I am sure that everyone on this site has hit their horse at some stage to make it go where needed, jump, get off your foot. We are no angels but Parelli doesn't make you worse or give an excuse. Sady some misuse it but then they'd probably misuse anything even if all they had was their foot, fist or stick rather than a carrot stick. I never took it any further than level 1 and just play every once in a while. I would not hesitate to use it with any other horse that I have in the future.

THE END

Squip

 

[gemmah]

Panther, yr description of the ditch jumping is spot on! It is certainly the attitude that I have with my horses! It seems thet the majority of us on bothsides of this 'debate' have exactly the same ideas, just express them differently and use difrnt tools?? Just a thaught?
Can't remembr who said bout the phases thing and u increase till they do what u want. That only applies if the horse is completely ignoring u! As soon as they stary to try, even if they're not doing the thing u want u don't increase the pressure at all u just wait for them to figure it out. It's the 'try' that yr looking for, then u just wait for them to work it out. Even if that is at phase 1 or 2. To incrase the pressure just til they do what u want thro confusion or fear is just plain cruel! It's all about giving them as much time as they need to work out what u want and not being judgemental or impatient if it takes a while. I know stuff from the programme seems to have been mis-interpreted by some students and P and L hav tried to rectify this by bringing out the new packs. These focus much more on psychology and taking time rather than getting things done 2 quickly.
If phase 4 (as firm as necessary) is used, there is (if done correctly) no attitude in it. No aggression, no fear no judgement involved. It is emotions that the horse reacts to more than the physical. (obviously i don't mean beating the horse b4 any1 twists my words).
There does seem to be some anthropomorphism going on here. Horses really do appreciate being treated like horses, even if we as humans don't always feel comfortable with that. How many times have we put our horses in the field and felt they were being bullied, hurt or upset by other horses? Not a fact, just what WE feel. To the horse he's just being a horse!

 

[gemmah]

Well said sqippa!

 

[anorakarabian]

I think Parelli is wonderful. I think horses as a hobby/ life are great as there are so many different disciplines we can choose.
I have done various of these but am now loving working my way through level 2 Parelli.