what do you think of this stallion?
- Thread starter SKY
- Start date
Lgd
Well-Known Member
Would be questioning why a 12yo stallion is not being ridden for the pics and apparently has no performance record.
cundlegreen
Well-Known Member
No pedigree shown either. Quite nice looking horse.
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
Very nice looking horse. Here is his pedigree http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=...x=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=
Also wonder why he isn't shown under saddle and has no competition record though a quick call to the owner would clear that up. There can be a whole host of reasons why, which might have no impact on his ability to be a decent sire.
However this is the first question I would ask if I were thinking of using him. Plus ask to see any progeny he might have.
Also wonder why he isn't shown under saddle and has no competition record though a quick call to the owner would clear that up. There can be a whole host of reasons why, which might have no impact on his ability to be a decent sire.
However this is the first question I would ask if I were thinking of using him. Plus ask to see any progeny he might have.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Distinctly average.
BBH
Well-Known Member
I like him, particularly as a coloured his markings which are nice and even. As for what he's done a phone call can clear up any information required.
xloopylozzax
Well-Known Member
stewbald... gives a whole new angle to the horsemeat saga.
Not something I would breed from, a lot nicer stallions out there IMO
Not something I would breed from, a lot nicer stallions out there IMO
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
Yes, but only in the context of all stallions available, including the should-have-been-geldings and the Olympic potentials.
He is well put together and has a tidy jump, no screaming conformation faults and from the picture from Sporthorse Data, where he is standing there with his leadrope on the floor, might very well have a good temperament...
He is therefore on the very nice side of the good allrounder bracket - which represents what 90% of UK riders need and should therefore be 90% of the foals bred... because 85% of UK riders can't handle or ride one side of a GP potential and the 5% who can don't want the hassle. So when those magnificently bred foals fail to reach their "potential", they have no real place in the leisure, RC, unaffiliated or low affiliated, 90% of the riding population... a lot like most of the failed racehorses, when the meat man appears to be the most sensible outcome.
I am not and never will advocate breeding from crap, but he isn't crap. Not a world beater perhaps, but potentially an attractive, sensible, sound sire of an attractive, sensible, sound allrounder. Average for some. Damn great for others
AmyMay
Situation normal
Sorry, you've assumed I've made a comparison, that I haven't.
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, negative one-liners with no context or explanations rather lend themselves to interpretation, though I wouldn't say assumptions
Would you care to elaborate?
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
I think the stud fee tells you all you need to know.
If the horse has a competition record of his own, or useful, successful stock of his own on the ground his fee would not be £200.
If the horse has a competition record of his own, or useful, successful stock of his own on the ground his fee would not be £200.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Unfortunately, negative one-liners with no context or explanations rather lend themselves to interpretation, though I wouldn't say assumptions
Really Ginnie? Thank you for that in depth and erudite explanation.
emlybob
Well-Known Member
Back to the stallion and not the derogatory comments that I am getting so bored of on here.
I think he looks a little straight in the hind leg and short of rein, however it is really hard to tell as not a great confo shot of him.
However I ditto the above about price and comp record. Personally I think you will find much better.
Good luck
I think he looks a little straight in the hind leg and short of rein, however it is really hard to tell as not a great confo shot of him.
However I ditto the above about price and comp record. Personally I think you will find much better.
Good luck
BigYellowHorse
Well-Known Member
Not sure if I should comment - my experience of the breeding world is in its dawning years, the more you do and read the more you learn!! Anyway, I didn't find myself getting overly excited of him... There are some much nicer stallions on the site that seem of a far better calibre.
As I was skimming the site - there seem to be a couple on there that could do with gelding (dont know if I should say that really!!) but there was one with the main picture of the horse rearing?? I would find that really, really off putting if I was looking at potential stallions, might be on my own on that one!!
As I was skimming the site - there seem to be a couple on there that could do with gelding (dont know if I should say that really!!) but there was one with the main picture of the horse rearing?? I would find that really, really off putting if I was looking at potential stallions, might be on my own on that one!!
cundlegreen
Well-Known Member
Yes, but only in the context of all stallions available, including the should-have-been-geldings and the Olympic potentials.
He is well put together and has a tidy jump, no screaming conformation faults and from the picture from Sporthorse Data, where he is standing there with his leadrope on the floor, might very well have a good temperament...
He is therefore on the very nice side of the good allrounder bracket - which represents what 90% of UK riders need and should therefore be 90% of the foals bred... because 85% of UK riders can't handle or ride one side of a GP potential and the 5% who can don't want the hassle. So when those magnificently bred foals fail to reach their "potential", they have no real place in the leisure, RC, unaffiliated or low affiliated, 90% of the riding population... a lot like most of the failed racehorses, when the meat man appears to be the most sensible outcome.
I am not and never will advocate breeding from crap, but he isn't crap. Not a world beater perhaps, but potentially an attractive, sensible, sound sire of an attractive, sensible, sound allrounder. Average for some. Damn great for others
Hit the nail on the head there, GR!!!!
magic104
Well-Known Member
At 200 pounds he is appealing to the lower end of the market. Sorry but these stallions undermine the work & costs that responsible stallion owners go to in ensuring their horses are graded. By being graded, generally they have passed some sort of health check & may even have X-Rays. I do feel it is difficult to make a judgement on the photos & I would rather use something like him then a 2yo colt. If you want to know if he is any good then at 12yo he should have something under saddle, but then you need to know what the mare was like. His stud fee makes him worth a gamble, though I would hope people would actually check him out & see what his offspring are like.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% about the market for safe sensible riding horses at an affordable price. The forum is full of posts from people who feel overhorsed.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
On the subject of grading. A tale of my two stallions and why I it is possible to breed quality even without grading.
My CB stallion (CBHS have no grading process) purchased unbacked with a basic licence for which a 5 stage vetting is required. Expensively backed but did not want to canter with a rider. Two more vet inspections. Vets could find nothing wrong. I and both my trainers thought he had a back problem specialist ortho vet disagreed!!
We took him to the Prof at Nantes who is an FEI vet. He agreed with me, x-rayed the stallion and found a badly healed fracture in his neck, a chip on one front fetlock and two 'kissing spines'. He believed these were all the result of accidental injury during his first year of life - missed by five vets.
So he cannot compete. As we live in France he cannot be awarded QA or Premium status by my own breed society. He is fertile, has lovely paces without a rider produces quality foals.
My Shagya colt was a beauty from the day he was born. In 2011 he was one of only three stallions approved for the Shagya stud book in France, out of 13 put forward. He was the youngest at 3 and must prove performance by the time he is 6.
Of the three approved stallions one was sired by Paris, my boy's damsire and my boy by Tatianus - EU Shagya Champion who underwent (100 day test?) in Germany. Neither Paris nor Tatianus have ever competed in endurance.
We have a competition in July at Lion D'Angers and we have been invited to bring our horses. Sadly we cannot take either because neither Paris nor Tatianus competed in endurance. We have to have endurance in the pedigree to compete. (Just as well because we know they both ooze quality!!! no one else would stand a chance.)
I do feel irritated by some of the grading processes.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
You are right of course, but there are plenty of nice all round stallions around that are proven in performance themselves and with stock doing well.
This stallion does not seem to have any history at all, unless it has not been included in the advert for some reason. I fail to see how temperament can be assessed if the stallion has not been competed, travelled or put under pressure.
There are native stallions, ISH and ID stallions available that have proven themselves before and during being at stud. When I decided on a stallion the decisions were based on temperament, performance and existing youngstock. All I wanted to breed was a sensible pleasure horse from a plain but superb tempered mare. It would have been easy to pop her 'down the road' to a cheapy unproven stallion and hope for the best, but why do that when there are nice and proven stallions available.
cundlegreen
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE
There are native stallions, ISH and ID stallions available that have proven themselves before and during being at stud. When I decided on a stallion the decisions were based on temperament, performance and existing youngstock. All I wanted to breed was a sensible pleasure horse from a plain but superb tempered mare. It would have been easy to pop her 'down the road' to a cheapy unproven stallion and hope for the best, but why do that when there are nice and proven stallions available.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. I have one of those Native stallions who does it all, and when the local veterinary practice tells me that all the offspring by my stallion have fantastic temperaments, and are a pleaseure to deal with, it makes keeping a stallion worthwhile !
There are native stallions, ISH and ID stallions available that have proven themselves before and during being at stud. When I decided on a stallion the decisions were based on temperament, performance and existing youngstock. All I wanted to breed was a sensible pleasure horse from a plain but superb tempered mare. It would have been easy to pop her 'down the road' to a cheapy unproven stallion and hope for the best, but why do that when there are nice and proven stallions available.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. I have one of those Native stallions who does it all, and when the local veterinary practice tells me that all the offspring by my stallion have fantastic temperaments, and are a pleaseure to deal with, it makes keeping a stallion worthwhile !
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
Out of interest, Adorable Alice, what would you consider "proven" in an amateur's allrounder?
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
Do you mean which stallions I would use ? if so it would be the likes of Primitive Star (ID xTB), Avanti Amorous Archie and Lecarrow King. For a sporty model I would look at King's Composer and Bandmaster.
If I had a magic wand I would resurrect Alice's Diamond Slipper and Banks Fee Daniel, Another Hoirwithy and Llanarth Flying Comet.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Yet CB stallions have only ever been 'approved' or competed 'in hand'.
Mexico, Tokyo and London Olympics featured part bred CB's in the Olympic teams, though in London the horse was on the Dutch Team!!! When a Dutch state run stud was looking for an improver they came to the UK and purchased a CB stallion called Manningford Hermes.
In Mexico Harvey Smith's gold medal winning horse was by the CB stallion Lord Fairfax out of an unknown TB mare. Four of the reserve team were part bred CB's. Quite an achievement for a Rare Breed.
This says a great deal for going with your own judgement rather than fashion or grading?
Mexico, Tokyo and London Olympics featured part bred CB's in the Olympic teams, though in London the horse was on the Dutch Team!!! When a Dutch state run stud was looking for an improver they came to the UK and purchased a CB stallion called Manningford Hermes.
In Mexico Harvey Smith's gold medal winning horse was by the CB stallion Lord Fairfax out of an unknown TB mare. Four of the reserve team were part bred CB's. Quite an achievement for a Rare Breed.
This says a great deal for going with your own judgement rather than fashion or grading?
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
What I meant really is what specific characteristics in an allrounder stallion would you consider to make that stallion "proven". Competition results? Great temperament? Progeny's competition results?
To me, it would be that stallion being a great hunter, happily going in a mixed field with an amateur on board, doing working hunter at County shows, a bit of dressage, show jumping, hunter trialling, again with an amateur and mares around. Also consistently producing progeny with outstanding temperaments snd rideability for the average leisure rider.
Of the list you've given*(as fitting in my definition above)Archie and Kings Composer fit the bill perfectly... though I have read on this very forum some criticism of KC along the lines of what has he done of note? and why so few of his progeny are showing up top in the rankings? or has anyone ever seen a pic of him under saddle? That doesn't make him any less of an absolute cracking sire of good competitive amateur rides. And to an extent, there lies the problem... how do you find out what stallions' progeny are doing when they are "only" being fantastic leisure horses and their "results" are not in the public domain? Might be the case for this stallion?
Of the others, I'm not convinced about Primitive Proposal, a personal opinion, and Another Hoarwithy might have been a bit racey for the amateur market.
I don't know enough about the others to pass comment.
To me, it would be that stallion being a great hunter, happily going in a mixed field with an amateur on board, doing working hunter at County shows, a bit of dressage, show jumping, hunter trialling, again with an amateur and mares around. Also consistently producing progeny with outstanding temperaments snd rideability for the average leisure rider.
Of the list you've given*(as fitting in my definition above)Archie and Kings Composer fit the bill perfectly... though I have read on this very forum some criticism of KC along the lines of what has he done of note? and why so few of his progeny are showing up top in the rankings? or has anyone ever seen a pic of him under saddle? That doesn't make him any less of an absolute cracking sire of good competitive amateur rides. And to an extent, there lies the problem... how do you find out what stallions' progeny are doing when they are "only" being fantastic leisure horses and their "results" are not in the public domain? Might be the case for this stallion?
Of the others, I'm not convinced about Primitive Proposal, a personal opinion, and Another Hoarwithy might have been a bit racey for the amateur market.
I don't know enough about the others to pass comment.
cundlegreen
Well-Known Member
Re KC, if he's good enough for the Queen to use on her mares, that will do for me! As to him not having pictures under saddle, heres a link http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=kings+composer&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=. He show jumped to Grade B with an amateur, not bad for a TB.
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
... not to mention sired an Olympic eventer, Cundlegreen
Sorry, V, I didn't make myself very clear. I think KC is an exceptionally versatile stallion and I really really like him. I was merely repeating what I read recently on this very forum to illustrate a point I was trying to make about assumptions being made about this particular stallion and others...
Sorry, V, I didn't make myself very clear. I think KC is an exceptionally versatile stallion and I really really like him. I was merely repeating what I read recently on this very forum to illustrate a point I was trying to make about assumptions being made about this particular stallion and others...
SKY
Well-Known Member
thanks for replies, just found his breeding.
http://www.kiddsstables.com/beragh_bolero.htm
it looks quite good, the one i had my heart set on is sold to england and cost too much now. but only looking at min have used a few great ones before but just liked look of him, but also like this other stallion at min.
http://www.donedeal.co.uk/for-sale/horses/4643905
http://www.kiddsstables.com/beragh_bolero.htm
it looks quite good, the one i had my heart set on is sold to england and cost too much now. but only looking at min have used a few great ones before but just liked look of him, but also like this other stallion at min.
http://www.donedeal.co.uk/for-sale/horses/4643905
AmyMay
Situation normal
deleted
Kacey88
Well-Known Member
So do I, and his owner is really nice and helpful.
A bit off topic, but I don't use the stud fee as a means of evaluating a stallion. I know a few gorgeous stallions over, graded x-rays etc, performance record and a temperament to die for for 200euro. Other less nice but popular ones can more expensive. Maybe that's just Ireland.
Good luck with your search
SKY
Well-Known Member
Do u know any close to northern ireland. I have used totals touch and cross drum spurs and wolf tone in coloured. Some are just too far away from me. Where is the ones you know as I wide be interested thanks for reply.ireland has quite a few but at the other end of it and this year I have a few things on and have to go closer to home.