Dressage What does a £1.5million dressage 4 year old look like? This!

This horse is so far from my own experience and ambition that it is another world frankly! :) I think he looks amazing and in superb condition as well as pretty happy. I imagine there are so so many leisure horses being prepared for competition that they may or may not suit that have had less attention and care to their training than this chap. I see quite a few horses spending literally hours every week being drilled in the school etc - for dressage and jumping and I bet that this horse hasn't been drilled.

Having said that, this is just a particular sort of horse for a particular sort of market and competitive life - that is all. From my very basic perspective (which I grant really doesn't matter a jot) I hate the modern dressage movement tbh. I find it both comical and a bit sad :( Medium trot always looks like the horse is riding a penny farthing and the extremity of movement just looks silly to me. Although this rider sits really nicely and quietly I do see (when I watch some dressage) some very 'extreme' positions and inputs from riders which I think are ugly. I prefer the more 'traditional' sort of thing which is quieter and less spectacular. What does any of it matter though ? This is a horse for his purpose and mine are for mine - at his price, well out of the range of most people, witterings about any of that are pretty much irrelevant I reckon!!
 
Cortez said:
Many/most Spanish horses lower their hindquarters naturally, it's the first thing I look for when viewing. What's there naturally doesn't have to be worked for so hard. Virgins are always welcome of course, but experience would be more useful I would say.
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i knew you would say that, cause its true of course!

on reflection i was wondering if the horse in the video is having a growth spurt, rear end , and if this could account to some degree why its rear steps looks to my eye odd in walk

the rescue again, he had a growth spurt rear end two months ago, so left him alone, now hes ok`, so carrying on with him the through the winter
 
He’s a beautiful horse and I like that his hind end matches his front - it looks so very easy for him to work over his back. I did wonder how much his rider was holding him together however particularly in the more collected steps, there seemed to be a lot of rein pressure with him over flexing to avoid it. I suppose it can’t be easy for horse or rider to hold such a big, powerful movement at his age. His rider seems very very skilled however so really what do I know!
 
I'd rather watch this any day than the majority of riders you see at local shows or BEs on fat horses with poorly fitting tack bouncing all over the place and socking the horse in the mouth to get it's head down or get it over a fence... I know two wrongs don't make a right but given the vast majority of the horse world is made up of mediocre amateurs (myself included) who get things wrong over and over, it's a bit amusing to see so many pick apart this horse and what is obviously an incredibly balanced and talented rider/trainer.
 
IrishMilo said:
I'd rather watch this any day than the majority of riders you see at local shows or BEs on fat horses with poorly fitting tack bouncing all over the place and socking the horse in the mouth to get it's head down or get it over a fence... I know two wrongs don't make a right but given the vast majority of the horse world is made up of mediocre amateurs (myself included) who get things wrong over and over, it's a bit amusing to see so many pick apart this horse and what is obviously an incredibly balanced and talented rider/trainer.
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This, although Irish Milo has said it much more eloquently than my actual thoughts!
 
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IrishMilo said:
I'd rather watch this any day than the majority of riders you see at local shows or BEs on fat horses with poorly fitting tack bouncing all over the place and socking the horse in the mouth to get it's head down or get it over a fence... I know two wrongs don't make a right but given the vast majority of the horse world is made up of mediocre amateurs (myself included) who get things wrong over and over, it's a bit amusing to see so many pick apart this horse and what is obviously an incredibly balanced and talented rider/trainer.
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Absolutely agree!
 
IrishMilo said:
I'd rather watch this any day than the majority of riders you see at local shows or BEs on fat horses with poorly fitting tack bouncing all over the place and socking the horse in the mouth to get it's head down or get it over a fence... I know two wrongs don't make a right but given the vast majority of the horse world is made up of mediocre amateurs (myself included) who get things wrong over and over, it's a bit amusing to see so many pick apart this horse and what is obviously an incredibly balanced and talented rider/trainer.
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The average BE80 horse and rider combination isn’t ever going to be held up as the pinnacle of young competition horse breeding/producing though. I think people are using this horse to comment on the wider trends within that, namely the hyper-mobility and exaggerated movement, plus the ease with which the horse engages itself. I think it makes for an interesting discussion, far more educational than everyone going ‘well, they’re too far beyond my standard to criticise so I shan’t comment’. I find dressage fascinating but my own experience is very far removed from horses and riders like this pair so it is something of a learning opportunity.
 
Lillian_paddington said:
The average BE80 horse and rider combination isn’t ever going to be held up as the pinnacle of young competition horse breeding/producing though. I think people are using this horse to comment on the wider trends within that, namely the hyper-mobility and exaggerated movement, plus the ease with which the horse engages itself. I think it makes for an interesting discussion, far more educational than everyone going ‘well, they’re too far beyond my standard to criticise so I shan’t comment’. I find dressage fascinating but my own experience is very far removed from horses and riders like this pair so it is something of a learning opportunity.
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I didn't think this discussion was about pinnacles and instead went down the pathway of the damage to horses.

As soon as we clamber aboard we do damage and cause stress; they physically arent structurally designed to carry weight on their backs.

As the topic veered towards the damage done to purpose bred horses trained and ridden by skilled and experienced people.

I'd agree that far more damage is done by us amateurs out of balance, hauling and catching mouths, shortcuts with pessoas/equiamis/the next "in" gadget, bouncing out of balance, making and letting horses go unbalanced/on the forehand/crooked, wanting to do more without established and correct foundations.

Look how many of our horses in their supposedly kushty loved lives end up damaged and broken? Its just part of having horses when its us but it's over training and greed when it's a professional set up.

If we are trying our best why is it such a reach to think that professional owners, trainers and riders are too?

Whilst there are examples of cruelty and neglect in professional circles there are just as many within amateurs and plenty of threads on here with examples of it in livery yards.

Modern dressage isnt to my taste and I don't like the current fashion for extra extravagant movement but business wise these producers have to produce horses that can compete and be successful otherwise no one wants their breeding. It make literally no sense to push these horses to breaking point.
 
TPO said:
I didn't think this discussion was about pinnacles and instead went down the pathway of the damage to horses.

As soon as we clamber aboard we do damage and cause stress; they physically arent structurally designed to carry weight on their backs.

As the topic veered towards the damage done to purpose bred horses trained and ridden by skilled and experienced people.

I'd agree that far more damage is done by us amateurs out of balance, hauling and catching mouths, shortcuts with pessoas/equiamis/the next "in" gadget, bouncing out of balance, making and letting horses go unbalanced/on the forehand/crooked, wanting to do more without established and correct foundations.

Look how many of our horses in their supposedly kushty loved lives end up damaged and broken? Its just part of having horses when its us but it's over training and greed when it's a professional set up.

If we are trying our best why is it such a reach to think that professional owners, trainers and riders are too?

Whilst there are examples of cruelty and neglect in professional circles there are just as many within amateurs and plenty of threads on here with examples of it in livery yards.

Modern dressage isnt to my taste and I don't like the current fashion for extra extravagant movement but business wise these producers have to produce horses that can compete and be successful otherwise no one wants their breeding. It make literally no sense to push these horses to breaking point.
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Agree with every word.
 
Personally I think I just struggle to see the pont or logic in breeding horses for a riding discipline that are ultimately extremely hard to sit on and absorb the movement correctly. The lady on this horse has wonderful flexibility and balance but even she is rowing her shoulders quite dramatically on that canter. You're going beyond the capabilites of the human spine.

To be fair to this guy he does at least look like one horse front to back and is demonstrating a pelvic tuck and some sit which is an improvement on previous top flight spider horses.

I'm not saying I could even start to ride him. I'll stick to cobs and in my wildest dreams a lovely PRE. That's fine. It's just this isn't to my taste and I don't understand the whys of it.
 
ycbm said:
Passage at 4? How much work has he already done to work like that at 4?

.
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It's not a passage, it's a few half steps of collection, and a horse like that, with training of that calibre, is unlikely to need much training to do it. I think part of people's unease with what they're seeing is that you don't have many horses like this here, or many trainers of this expertise. In other countries you can go to any small stable, in a tiny village, and see people performing very high level dressage moves as a matter of course. I've seen shetlands doing piaffe, cattle horses doing one-time changes, kid's group lessons in a riding school where they all had to do canter half pass and pirouette, five year old's riding grandpa's Grand Prix stallion (very well), etc., etc. It's a different world.
 
Cortez said:
It's not a passage, it's a few half steps of collection, and a horse like that, with training of that calibre, is unlikely to need much training to do it. I think part of people's unease with what they're seeing is that you don't have many horses like this here, or many trainers of this expertise. In other countries you can go to any small stable, in a tiny village, and see people performing very high level dressage moves as a matter of course. I've seen shetlands doing piaffe, cattle horses doing one-time changes, kid's group lessons in a riding school where they all had to do canter half pass and pirouette, five year old's riding grandpa's Grand Prix stallion (very well), etc., etc. It's a different world.
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Exactly. Whilst we have some of the worlds best competition jockeys the undercurrant of horse riding in the UK is mostly very basic compared to the rest of the world. I include myself in this.

Whilst I can gallop a racehorse and school my show horses to show ring standard to be pleasant, easy rides I wouldn't be able to pull off any fancy moves in a million years! I've never been taught to so I wouldn't know how to teach a horse to do it.

Don't get me wrong I have done some beautiful piaffes, passages, half passes and one time changes in my time but none were intentional and the horses were just being over zealous idiots ??
 
Something that has stayed with me, was a comment from Carl Hester at an Olympia demo about needing to have a 'show trot', and a 'normal' trot. These horses have the ability to 'show trot' all day long, but need to be taught to go in a more conservative fashion, to preserve them for when they do need to compete. It was incredible to watch; horse trotted around looking 'average' (by which I mean still special but in a more 'normal' way) and then when pressure was applied, out came this huge floating, cadenced movement. He was clear that extensions should be saved for competitions-it's been proven that extensions put just as much pressure on limbs as collections- and that extravagant moving horses do not need to move extravagantly throughout a whole training session. Just something to think about when you have a big moving horse.
 
PapaverFollis said:
Personally I think I just struggle to see the pont or logic in breeding horses for a riding discipline that are ultimately extremely hard to sit on and absorb the movement correctly. The lady on this horse has wonderful flexibility and balance but even she is rowing her shoulders quite dramatically on that canter. You're going beyond the capabilites of the human spine.

To be fair to this guy he does at least look like one horse front to back and is demonstrating a pelvic tuck and some sit which is an improvement on previous top flight spider horses.

I'm not saying I could even start to ride him. I'll stick to cobs and in my wildest dreams a lovely PRE. That's fine. It's just this isn't to my taste and I don't understand the whys of it.
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`rowing the shoulders`` how i hate that, why do they do it, it usually goes with a grinding looking seat as well,,


rowing shoulders , grinding seat, spurs used at lot in slow mo canter, sorry i know i am supposed to think this is wonderful riding...........but i don`t
 
NinjaPony said:
Something that has stayed with me, was a comment from Carl Hester at an Olympia demo about needing to have a 'show trot', and a 'normal' trot. These horses have the ability to 'show trot' all day long, but need to be taught to go in a more conservative fashion, to preserve them for when they do need to compete. It was incredible to watch; horse trotted around looking 'average' (by which I mean still special but in a more 'normal' way) and then when pressure was applied, out came this huge floating, cadenced movement. He was clear that extensions should be saved for competitions-it's been proven that extensions put just as much pressure on limbs as collections- and that extravagant moving horses do not need to move extravagantly throughout a whole training session. Just something to think about when you have a big moving horse.
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Charlotte talks about that in her videos on the grey about developing the trot I think will see if can find.
 
It's just a way to absorb the big movement. Doesn't necessarily mean the seat is grinding or the spurs are active. But the canter movement should be absorbed in the pelvis and lower back with the shoulders staying upright. Personally I'm hopeless at it even on my shuffle bum coblers... but we try.
 
PapaverFollis said:
Personally I think I just struggle to see the pont or logic in breeding horses for a riding discipline that are ultimately extremely hard to sit on and absorb the movement correctly. The lady on this horse has wonderful flexibility and balance but even she is rowing her shoulders quite dramatically on that canter. You're going beyond the capabilites of the human spine.

To be fair to this guy he does at least look like one horse front to back and is demonstrating a pelvic tuck and some sit which is an improvement on previous top flight spider horses.

I'm not saying I could even start to ride him. I'll stick to cobs and in my wildest dreams a lovely PRE. That's fine. It's just this isn't to my taste and I don't understand the whys of it.
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I think the crux is that they aren't hard to sit for excellent riders and it's those riders on these horses. The problems arise when the "not quite good enough" horses end up with the not so excellent riders. I dont think it's a stretch for any of us to name people (own selves included) who have overhorsed themselves.

While I've said that it isnt hard for those riders to sit the movement of a high class horse that doesnt mean it's easy or without effort. I'm pretty sure Charlotte DJ has spoken about fitness and I know several eventers and show jumpers have. They all work at upping their game and striving for improvements. They work on cardio, core strength and balance, as well as riding numerous horses daily, not many average amateurs do that (or can because work/family/life/one horse) but that's why we dont have £1.5m horses...

Like I said I'm personally not a fan of much of what I see in modern dressage (admittedly as I dont like it I don't follow it so I'm probably missing a lot of the good parts too, baby and bathwater). However as a whole I think we a whole have to be a lot more honest with ourselves and open our eyes to our faults and limitations then address what we should and could be doing to make life better for our horses, the only ines that we do have any say about.
 
Cortez said:
It's not a passage, it's a few half steps of collection, and a horse like that, with training of that calibre, is unlikely to need much training to do it. I think part of people's unease with what they're seeing is that you don't have many horses like this here, or many trainers of this expertise. In other countries you can go to any small stable, in a tiny village, and see people performing very high level dressage moves as a matter of course. I've seen shetlands doing piaffe, cattle horses doing one-time changes, kid's group lessons in a riding school where they all had to do canter half pass and pirouette, five year old's riding grandpa's Grand Prix stallion (very well), etc., etc. It's a different world.
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Thank you for saying this. It can be quite depressing really to see what other horse cultures value and achieve and then to look at our own. I am sad that I find the UK/BHS 'system' uninspiring, formulaic and frankly a bit joyless. There isn't also the same degree of national pride, state funding and rigour in our horsemanship development :( We are all told in this country that so much stuff is 'Advanced' - the subtext being that we don't know how to either train or ride at a better/more sophisticated level and that this 'knowledge' is not for ordinary riders and trainers. People who are starting out in riders are frequently looked down upon or patronised and skill and learning is incredibly narrowly focussed here for some reason - it really does not make people want to commit or have the discipline and sense of inspiration that is needed to achieve what can be achieved. We do have some wonderful role models and many, many committed, talented and disciplined individuals but our whole 'system' - from ideas about breeding, training and competing make it difficult I think to raise our national level of horsemanship above or beyond the confines of our 3 major disciplines - and those at quite an ordinary level for the vast majority of riders.

I am a product of that of course yet as a child I was absolutely obsessed with the SRS, CN and other horse cultures where it seemed that riding could be magical! Only once in my life have I been able to access training as a 'normal' rider that aspired to the values held more classically - that was a wonderful time in my life where I couldn't quite believe that a rider like me was considered appropriate enough to ride and train at a higher level, quite 'casually' if you like on really ordinary horses and not for competitive purposes than many more committed people ever get the chance of.

It is possible to be inspired and to learn from other horse cultures but it's not especially mainstream here and it is not particularly easy to find trainers and facilities that enable us to both dream and achieve :(
 
I quite agree with most of what you say TPO. I do however think the rowing shoulders in canter and nodding head in trot demonstrate that this really quite excellent rider is struggling to absorb this horse's huge movement correctly... I don't think any human could. And I, personally, don't value the huge movement enough aesthetically to see the point in people straining themselves to ride it. I just don't see the point.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well.

But I don't necessarily think professional dressage riding and breeding is the height of evils in the horse worlds either.

Now I have the horses at home it's a very nice feeling to just be able to focus on doing the very best I can by my own horses and not having livery yard disaster riding and care in my face everyday!
 
For me, it's less the training and the riding, and more can horses physically sustain this level of movement and breeding? Are we breeding horses to extremes that aren't sustainable? I'm sure he's being trained great (well maybe, who knows who he will end up with in the future).
 
TPO said:
I don't think enough people understand that simple doesn't necessarily equate easy!
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Well it is about a whole host of things - including the total lack of understanding or addressing meta-cognitive skills outside a quite specialist environment :( The equine taught environment in the UK is very largely a physical one and very rarely a cerebral one yet refinement of any skill at all requires both kinds of approach. Meta cognition is what enables people to join the dots to create something that is larger/better than the sum of it's parts. Where equestrian cultures are possibly more in tact than ours that meta cognition happens at a cultural level (as Cortez indicates) and so it is easier for riders to work toward a more fully engaged approach. I am not saying however that you never see awful things in other horse cultures of course, just that it may be easier to achieve what we might view as Advanced skills.
 
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