What is with people.....

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but in this case, they are just looking for someone to muck out for a couple of hours a day - a job for a student type I'd have thought, not a career.

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Often is not just mucking out though is it? I couldn't possibly muck out without sweeping up the yard, forking up the muck heap (sometimes the muck heap is miles from the yard across a muddy track with a wheelbarrow guaranteed to have a flat tyre!), if all the nets have to be done there will be bales to lug around and the bedding of course etc etc. Its not a very appealing job especially considering it rains everyday of the year now!

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You have to compare it to the alternatives for the type of person it would suit though. For a horsey person, spending a couple of hours mucking out with relaxed working hours and in the fresh air with the chance for some riding may very well be preferable to sitting on a till in tescos for hours on end, dealing with irate customers.

I certainly don't think the mucking out job is awful enough to merit paying twice as much as a job in tescos!
 
I've just finished working for a local stud (through no fault of theirs, it's because I'm moving house). I did basically what you're asking, except I turned out etc too. I was paid above minimum wage, worked 3 hrs a day, 4 days a week. The job advertised would have read that the candidate would have got free livery, opportunity to compete to a high level, and opportunity to ride daily. I chose NOT to ride etc.. but still got treated the same. Hours as I wanted them, and my employer treated me with respect and was fab to work for.

And that's the crutch. I may have only mucked out, done haynets, etc but I was appreciated. If employer was there she'd help, if one of my kids was ill (or I was ill) she understood and allowed me to do less hours or take time off. I was given decent paid holiday, and decent working conditions (ie a kitchenette with heating and food and drink making facilities, rubber matting in all stables, and if I'd said "I don't like that fork, it;s too tricky to use" I KNOW my boss would have gone and bought a better one.. ).

Put those thing in place (offer of livery, riding, decent working conditions and looking upon your groom as more than 'just' a [****] shoveller) and you will find a decent groom.

The work you're offering may suit a mother with time to kill during school hours, in which case she may not have the finances to keep her own horse, so offer of riding or free livery will definately help attract the right person.
 
What I don't understand is that OP is asking for a poop shoveller, but is then saying that she was unhappy with a novice handling her horse - why were they touching said horse in first place?

For a mucker outer, yes, a low wage is fine, anyone can do it. For actual handling and for someone who is expected to know what to do if said beast gets kicked price should reflect that. Would say 5-6 p/h for poop only, 8-9 for handling, and if you want ridden, by someone good inc. services 12 +.
 
yard worker versus asda

asda = , uniform provided , full training given , hugely discounted staff canteen , 4 weeks holiday pay , sick pay , end of year bonus insurce sorted , hours to suit me

yard worker = travel costs , tax and national insurance to pay , clothing to provide including higher laundry costs , no sick pay , no holiday pay no bonus ,
i worked from school leaving till i had my first child for private and commercial yards including sole charge , schooling , handling stallions , preparing show jumpers and eventers , tavelling head groom etc , i was well paid and happy
then i had kids and looked for work freelancing , mucking out yard sweeping , i wasnt fussed just need to earn a few squid to fit around my kids , and here comes the crunch , it paid a pittance and it still does , thats why i work at asda , i,m treated like a valued adult , i,m paid approx 6 squid after tax and i love it , i have no overheads , i would need a minimum of 3 hours work at a yard and 8 squid an hour to make it worth while , and i,m afraid your original post would put me straight off working for you
p.s if there was handling involved , ie turning out , feeding grooming etc i would expect to be paid more , i,m higly skilled and reliable and horses are valuable and sensitive , if i was employing someone to handle my horses i wouldnt want an unskilled worker ,
so its horses for courses , pay low wages , get low skills .
 
I pay (in east anglia) £8 per day for having my horse turned out, brought in, haynet made up, mucked out, water and feeds made up. My freelance groom charges £10 per hour if doing jobs on a timed basis and she charges individually for other things i.e. pulling manes, bathing, riding etc. We get it at a discounted rate as she is on my yard but she charges up to 50% extra for going to other yards. I must say I don't know anyone who would work for less unless they were kids trying to make some cash in the holidays. I do hope that you can find someone but it would be like looking for a needle in a hay stack where I live
 
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As I was a groom / riding instructor/ Equine veterinary nurse in what seems like a previous life i am afraid I need to agree with the skewbald on this one.
Get real.... grooms need to eat too :-)

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I agree that grooms need to eat too. WE ARE PAYING ABOVE MINIMUM WAGE, which is there for a reason. Would you all have the same opinion if I was advertising for a job at Tesco??

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More than likely not though - but you're not tesco. It's a job shovelling crap, with very little room for 'moving up the ladder' and no over time.
 
QR
Would now be a good time to point out that the minimum wage rates are:
£5.73 per hour for workers aged 22 years and older
A development rate of £4.77 per hour for workers aged 18-21 inclusive
£3.53 per hour for all workers under the age of 18, who are no longer of compulsory school age?

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QR, I have not read the rest of this post...

Firstly, your post does come accross as you are looking down on grooms. A good groom (as any racing man will tell you) makes for a good horse. It makes sense really - if you employ someone to look after your horses, you need to ensure they have the best care afforded to them (what I am trying to say is you need to pay them well so they are happy and look after your horse well)

I am not sure where you are, but if you consider to pay someone to ride your horse costs an approximate average of £20 for an hour, £10p/h for a freelance groom is completely acceptable. I am assuming you are not going to pay tax/NI/Holidays etc, and therefore I think £10 is fine for someone who is freelance. I actually think you should pay slightly more, or 'by job' but £10 is fine. Obviously this is different if you are employing someone on a full time basis to run and manage your yard. If you pay them a salary. ,as well as all their contributions, and holiday pay, then thats different.

As an idea, I will give you four scenarios of costs.

1. Friend works as live in groom. She gets £75 a day for 8 hours and pays £50 a week for her flat, and nothing else - everything else is paid for by her employer- and is employed full time so gets sick/holiday/maternity pay. This is in racing though.

2. Friend runs her own livery yard. Its fairly expensive to keep your horse there and she has built the business from scratch. She keeps 14 horses there, all on full livery at average £450 per month. By the time she has paid out for everything, she earns the same as the groom she employs. They work 5 day weeks, 7 hours a day (they are freelance so dont get paid lunch) for £1400 a month - and have to pay their own tax, national insurance etc. This is approx £10 per hour.

3. Friend used to do my horse. It used to take her an hour and she used to break down the costs like this
Turn out - £1
Bring in - £1
Muck out - £5
Make Feeds - £1
Haynets - £ 1

4. Horse kept on full livery, at the approximate cost of £500 per month (not including exercise)
£500
Cost per day (approx) £17
Cost of keeping horse per day (feed, bedding hay, rent) approx £9
Therefore the rest is wages of staff - approx £8 in this instance


I dont think they are being unreasonable, I think you are being a little unrealistic in what you want to pay, and as soon as you accept you will have to pay to get what you want, the better, and you are more likely to get a happy person in the job - if you respect them.
 
QR,
without getting into the rights and wrongs, or expectations - I can only advise what out local freelance groom charges -
£10 per day, broken down as
£7 in the morning to feed, pick out feet, change rugs and turn out, muck out and do nets
£3 in the evening to wash legs, pick out foot, change rugs and give feed

Which I think is quite reasonable.

If there was no need to handle the horses, £5 per box would be reasonable, I think
 
The point is rather that £5 a box might be reasonable if there were, say, half a dozen boxes every day, but one box every other day, it isn't worth the travel, laundry, insurance etc etc.

This thread has somewhat exhausted itself, but I still hold to what I said in the first place. This attitude to other human beings is like something out of the Dark Ages! It reminds me a bit of dear old Audrey in 'To the Manor Born'

Surely you can just get a little man to do it?!

(cue old Ned, tugging his forelock obligingly.)
 
It may be worth asking round local farms, particularly if there are any dairy farms. A farm hand or farmer's son/daughter looking to earn a bit extra, who is close by and who may just have a couple of hours spare during the day may be ideal. In my experience, usually good with animals, possess common sense and work hard. Hopefully would get around the travel problem as well. Or find other yards locally who are also offering part time work/have part time grooms or stable hands, who may be happy to do yours as well? Travel is a real problem because the pay and the job to be done simply do not justify the travel time and cost. If you put in a bit of work to find someone local you may also end up with a more permanent arrangement which suits everybody better.

For what it's worth, I find it a bit irritating (despite not ever having been a groom) that some horse owners will spend so much money on unnecessary "fashion" and at the same time state that they can't afford to pay more to their groom. I don't have a problem with people spending money on things which will improve their riding and help their horse's comfort, welfare or performance, but there must be a lot of spare money floating around for there to be so many "equestrian" fashion labels. If you buy a few items of clothing from Joules, for example, which are totally unnecessary for you to enjoy your sport, try calculating how much more per hour you could have paid your groom over the past few weeks instead. The same thing goes for fully loaded lorries. I sincerely hope that anybody who pays for a fancy paint job on their lorry also pays cracking wages to their grooms. I doubt that is the case though, and it is depressing.

Nobody likes parting with their cash and the idea that someone should be grateful to work with horses appeals to the sensibilities of the employer with tight fists or small pockets, but it is wholly unfair and unrealistic. On the other hand, grooms owe it to employers to be good at their job and reliable. Whilstsoever employers think they may be let down or the horses are not sufficiently well cared for they will resent parting with any more cash than absolutely necessary. A quandary. A grooms's association may help, which could provide minimum standards expected both from grooms and from employers, as well as providing a marketplace.

I am not talking from sufficient personal experience, so happy to be corrected on any of the above. Just my thoughts, that's all.
 
I think the biggest problem is that the OP is looking for a freelance groom and not someone full time. To make it worth while you are going to have to pay extra, or at least offer some money to cover petrol/travel costs. Dont forget most freelance grooms also have to pay for insurance.

For those of you that have talked about a grooms association helping in these instances, there is one!

http://www.britishgrooms.org.uk/
 
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If there was no need to handle the horses, £5 per box would be reasonable, I think

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True, but that would work out as atleast £10/hour if not more.
 
I work with horses. I am the Centre Manager of a large equestrian centre in the south. My job includes being incharge of 30 plus staff, 80 plus horses, matienance of facilities, organising shows, lesson plans, organising inspections for BHS and ABRS, staff training, teaching, improving the business, speaking to new clients and when needed if pushed for staff due to holidays mucking out, tacking up, sweeping, grooming, clipping ect- all the jobs a groom would do. I also have to oragnise admin such as holidays, staff sickness ect.
I work a 44 plus hour week ( more if its a week with shows) and get 20 days holiday per year and I am paid around £6.80 per hour with a bit extra at the end of each month if we have exceeded our targets- that might add on about £50 per week at its best. I do not get my livery for free but I get discount of items purchased in our saddlery.
If I went as a freelance instructor I could get around £30 per hour ( I am a qualified BHSI(SM)) but its not guarenteed and it means a lot of travelling about.
Jobs with horses are very few and far between that pays a decent amount of money. We pay our freelancers £10 per hour but they are picked up and dropped as and when we need them.
I don't believe anyone should expect £10 per hour for mucking out, if I got paid 310 per hour for that by any yard I would be there like a shot!
 
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QR,
without getting into the rights and wrongs, or expectations - I can only advise what out local freelance groom charges -
£10 per day, broken down as
£7 in the morning to feed, pick out feet, change rugs and turn out, muck out and do nets
£3 in the evening to wash legs, pick out foot, change rugs and give feed

Which I think is quite reasonable.

If there was no need to handle the horses, £5 per box would be reasonable, I think

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MH - I hate to pick on your post but it is simple to understand.

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£7 in the morning to feed, pick out feet, change rugs and turn out, muck out and do nets


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This would take approx 40 mins per horse, mucking out prob 20 mins, therefore £3.50 per horse just to muck out.

It took me approx 20 minutes per stable this morning so at £5 per box thats £15 per hour! Thats as much as I earn and I have far more responsibility.
 
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Why is it so hard to find someone decent and that doesnt expect to be paid a fortune?
Are we being unreasonable in what we are asking?

[/ QUOTE ]PMSL that has to be the best sentence EVER
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I havent bothered to read what anyone says...it wont sway my reply.
Why should any one work for you and do a decent job and expect the minimum wage ..if that??????

Horse people are on another planet most of the time IMO......why should you pay someone peanuts and expect them to work their arse off for you?????????
 
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What I don't understand is that OP is asking for a poop shoveller, but is then saying that she was unhappy with a novice handling her horse - why were they touching said horse in first place.

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Said person should not have been handling my horse. We did have a groom who worked 3 full days, said groom started bringing down a friend who we didnt know from adam who began handling the horses.
The job description is now different and doesnt involve anyone handling the horses unless they want to.

What is wrong with people? I simply posted that we couldnt find anyone to muck out. Everyone began making assumptions thinking we were paying below minimum wage and began to jump down my throat. Its not exactly rocket science mucking out a few boxes.

As for the person who stated about carer prospects and over time, no, there are no career prospects but how would you know if there was overtime? Have you enquired about the job?

No wonder so many people leave this forum. Some people are like sheep, one person has a dig and then everyone follows.


Baaaaaaaaaaa
 
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Why is it so hard to find someone decent and that doesnt expect to be paid a fortune?
Are we being unreasonable in what we are asking?

[/ QUOTE ]PMSL that has to be the best sentence EVER
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I havent bothered to read what anyone says...it wont sway my reply.
Why should any one work for you and do a decent job and expect the minimum wage ..if that??????

Horse people are on another planet most of the time IMO......why should you pay someone peanuts and expect them to work their arse off for you?????????

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Who said anything about them being paid minimum wage? Mucking out 5 boxes..... hardly working their arse off
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if the owners of the 5 horses in those boxes think its "no big deal"...then muck out themselves......

just an option
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Erm....well, you want to find a decent person yet not expect to pay them a fortune
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I dont know you from Adam, but you sound to me like you are a typical person who wants something for nothing. Mucking out boxes 'decently' IS hard work.
You obviously think so too or you wouldnt be looking for another mug to do it for a non decent salary
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He did until he went to work full time. Leaves at 7 am gets home 6:30 pm so not really an option any more.

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Ah, if he is working those nice long hours in a 'proper' more rocket-science job like yourself, he'll be able to pay the groom a decent wage then?
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He did until he went to work full time. Leaves at 7 am gets home 6:30 pm so not really an option any more.

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Ah, if he is working those nice long hours in a 'proper' more rocket-science job like yourself, he'll be able to pay the groom a decent wage then?
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***snigger***
 
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Erm....well, you want to find a decent person yet not expect to pay them a fortune
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I dont know you from Adam, but you sound to me like you are a typical person who wants something for nothing. Mucking out boxes 'decently' IS hard work.
You obviously think so too or you wouldnt be looking for another mug to do it for a non decent salary
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Your right you dont know me from adam. IMO its not hard work.

I will not change my opinion, I personally think paying someone £10 p/h to muck out is too much and other people agree with me.

As for looking for another mug to do it, im not the one deciding the wages.
 
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He did until he went to work full time. Leaves at 7 am gets home 6:30 pm so not really an option any more.

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Ah, if he is working those nice long hours in a 'proper' more rocket-science job like yourself, he'll be able to pay the groom a decent wage then?
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[/ QUOTE ]*sighs* why should she, it only [****] shovelling
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I dont see why someone doesnt do it for free
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He did until he went to work full time. Leaves at 7 am gets home 6:30 pm so not really an option any more.

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Ah, if he is working those nice long hours in a 'proper' more rocket-science job like yourself, he'll be able to pay the groom a decent wage then?
S
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Your last comment was really uncalled for. What has what I do for a living got to do with it? I used to like you but now I just think your a bully.
 
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What I don't understand is that OP is asking for a poop shoveller, but is then saying that she was unhappy with a novice handling her horse - why were they touching said horse in first place.

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Said person should not have been handling my horse. We did have a groom who worked 3 full days, said groom started bringing down a friend who we didnt know from adam who began handling the horses.
The job description is now different and doesnt involve anyone handling the horses unless they want to.

What is wrong with people? I simply posted that we couldnt find anyone to muck out. Everyone began making assumptions thinking we were paying below minimum wage and began to jump down my throat. Its not exactly rocket science mucking out a few boxes.

As for the person who stated about carer prospects and over time, no, there are no career prospects but how would you know if there was overtime? Have you enquired about the job?

No wonder so many people leave this forum. Some people are like sheep, one person has a dig and then everyone follows.


Baaaaaaaaaaa

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Temper temper.
And you accuse me of being rude?

Look, from the way you talk, I wouldn't work for you for twenty quid an hour, even if I was in immigrant single mother with no rocket science and couldn't even spell your level of responsibility.
That would be because you appear to me to be arrogant, condescending, and rude, and appear for some reason to think you are better than all these potential scivvies.
The fact that you think that posters like Shilasdair and JM07 would just follow like sheep shows you are also a very poor judge of character.
You asked, a)why can't I get a groom, b)am I being unreasonable.
A whole load of people said a) 1) because you're not paying enough and 2) because you are not being very nice and b) yes.
Now it's not anyone else's fault that you didn't like the answers, is it?
 
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Your last comment was really uncalled for. What has what I do for a living got to do with it? I used to like you but now I just think your a bully.

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All over for you then, Shilasdair.
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