What is you definition of an indiscriminate breeding?

Nightmare before Christmas said:
I think what I am trying to say is people shouldnt breed to be an alrounder as many horses bred to be high level comp horses that dont make it make perfect alround horses :D

Otherwise you get lesser bred horses as alrounders and less talented comp horses as allrounders and then there is loads of horses a bit like now. I think europe have the right idea :)
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But less talented competion horses are often not suitable alrounders being breed to be reactive .
Much much better to buy a purpose bred allrounder than a failed competion type .
 
'I think what I am trying to say is people shouldnt breed to be an alrounder as many horses bred to be high level comp horses that dont make it make perfect alround horses'

I'm not sure of the truth in that- many horses bred to be the next Grand Prix horse are very sharp and high maintenance, and by definition athletic. Not that Im breeding and or ever plan to!
 
Hmm I actually get your point the more I think of it but I dont have an issue with sharp comp horses so maybe thats why I am generalizing this way?

I like sharp responsive horses I struggle to enjoy anything else.

Okay I get your point! ;)

Though not all comp horses are sharp, ive sat on some right donkeys in the past that a novice (my dad) has been able to hack out and bobble round the school on.

I guess its all down to the individual horse :/
 
IMHO a compition horse i sbred to be reactive, where as an alround needs to be sensibly reactive.... I have seen too many too sharp horses with oodles of talent but the wrong attitude.

There are a few bloodlines i would steer clear from....one part of breeding is knowing your mare, and not just the horse in front of you. With good breeding you look back 2 or even generations and see what type of horse was produced, as this gives you an idea of what is possible.
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
Hmm I actually get your point the more I think of it but I dont have an issue with sharp comp horses so maybe thats why I am generalizing this way?

I like sharp responsive horses I struggle to enjoy anything else.

Okay I get your point! ;)

Though not all comp horses are sharp, ive sat on some right donkeys in the past that a novice (my dad) has been able to hack out and bobble round the school on.

I guess its all down to the individual horse :/
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But here comes the question, are they sharp due to nature or nurture(sp?)... TB's come in all shapes and sizes, as do warmbloods....
 
RunToEarth said:
Thank you D_D, I love our boys to bits, sometimes I wonder how I used to cope with a mare! I always love to watch how people have brought foals on, it must be such an achievement to be Sat on a lovely home bred horse a few years on the line, and I can understand that as a reason for breeding. I do agree you need the breeding to start with, this is where people muck up imo.
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Well you know i love your horses. Very well bred and perfect for their jobs. :)
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/7939187.stm


Although I have to say that at the moment (no offence dd) I would love for it to be possible for a full ban on breeding until there are less horses, a better market and licensing put in place. Regardless of the fact that we may miss out on breeding from quality horses by doing that, in my opinion there will always be quality, but at the moment there needs to be action to be taken against breeding dross, infact breeding in general. I dont agree with a quick fire fix, something well thought out to prevent this happening again and some time to let the equine population naturally thin out is very much needed in my opinion.
 
Delicious_D said:
But here comes the question, are they sharp due to nature or nurture(sp?)... TB's come in all shapes and sizes, as do warmbloods....
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I was going to go onto this but thought that was a can of worms :P

I have known allrounder types be sharp but sadly talentless making them difficult to market and ive know laid back comp horses that need a bit of motivation to get the job done.

I guess there is a big mix from both ends. To me though horses are for sport really and I am happy with that :)

I guess people want different things and so the ideal horse doesnt really exist overall.... its more to the individual and unless you try and breed the perfect foal its hard to produce for each individual

Now im just confused as have too many variables floating round my head :/
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
I was going to go onto this but thought that was a can of worms :P

I have known allrounder types be sharp but sadly talentless making them difficult to market and ive know laid back comp horses that need a bit of motivation to get the job done.

I guess there is a big mix from both ends. To me though horses are for sport really and I am happy with that :)

I guess people want different things and so the ideal horse doesnt really exist overall.... its more to the individual and unless you try and breed the perfect foal its hard to produce for each individual

Now im just confused as have too many variables floating round my head :/
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I have a headache :p
 
Breeders who have a herd of whatever and every year get a new "crop" of foals and expect to sell them in the autumn and have literally no back up plan for them if they are not sold and then refuse to take responsibility when they have unsold foals- it's the buyers' fault for not wanting what "will make a cracking riding pony". This isn't the 60s any more, most people want something 4 or more that is broken in, not all I know, but most people.

I also feel like breeders breeding to find that really good competition horse just end up producing loads of horses that aren't really good "family horses" as aren't good doers/easy going and don't make it competing either.

So essentially it's all breeders I'm annoyed with! When I see all these horses going for meat I think, where's the breeder now???
 
For me indiscriminate breeding is getting a mare in foal because she has no other job to do and/or because you want to make a little money from it.

I've worked with a woman who was too overweight to ride her mare so she put her into foal instead and her goal was to lose enough weight to be able to ride both her mare and the foal (obviously once it became old enough!). I saw her a couple of years ago and she looked the same size. I've no idea if she still has her mare or the lovely little (I hope by now) gelding.

I think horses should be like dogs, don't breed unless you know what you are doing. If you don't, go to a reputable breeder who does. :)

Hope you got your sperm today. :D
 
Goodshipblossom - I think it a bit much to tar "all" breeders with the same brush. Many are very responsible and if you ask more than one sport horse breeder you will find they don't just breed for the top and temperament is very important. In my own case I like to think any of my foals can go on to be ridden by any competent rider but yes, I am sure we would all love to breed a horse capable of jumping a course worthy of any Grade A. Personally, as I have said previously I have given up expecting to sell as foals..lovely if it happens..but I anticipate keeping until under saddle - a lot think the same now too. We are not all the same and frankly, if people did not breed horses where on earth do you think yours would have come from?
 
I might get shot for this, but in this time of economic woe, I have concerns about ANY breeding where the breeder has no certainty as to what will become of the progeny. At the moment I am especially concerned about racehorses being bred in the usual quantities, and a market (here in S Africa) that is simply not buying at the yearling sales.

The reality is that horses are costly beasts; horse racing is a business, and I fear for what will become of the flow of beautifully-bred young race horses entering a market with very few buyers. It's unrealistic to expect them to be kept on indefinitely by breeders, I think.

Indiscriminate breeding, in a way....
 
Goodshipblossom said:
Breeders who have a herd of whatever and every year get a new "crop" of foals and expect to sell them in the autumn and have literally no back up plan for them if they are not sold and then refuse to take responsibility when they have unsold foals- it's the buyers' fault for not wanting what "will make a cracking riding pony". This isn't the 60s any more, most people want something 4 or more that is broken in, not all I know, but most people.
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I live in a different country to you so I'll give you a bit of info from my perspective. The horse market here can be quite different to the horse market in the UK and the prices of horses vary hugely depending on bloodlines and what breed/registry the mares/foals are registered with. I know a huge amount of breeders over here but I don't know any breeders like you are describing above. Some of the breeders I know are similar to me in that they expect to sell their weanlings (and usually do) but some years are better than others and so as responsible breeders we have contingency plans whereby we keep the horses until they are under saddle. By keeping them until they are under saddle gives greater financial benefits so it's not really a big issue for most of the breeders I know. To give you a better idea, obviously the market fluctuates by year but a nicely bred warmblood weanling will sell over here (atm) for between 9,500 and 18,000 whereas a 3 year old under saddle will sell for significantly more.

I also feel like breeders breeding to find that really good competition horse just end up producing loads of horses that aren't really good "family horses" as aren't good doers/easy going and don't make it competing either.
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Well that's kind of an odd thing to say and it would be interesting to hear the responses from British breeders to your comment. WB breeders here, just like in the UK, breed for different disciplines; sj, dressage obviously but we also have a huge hunter market in the States and people doing hunters are looking for quiet horses therefore the horses bred are easily rideable by amateurs as well as professionals, for the most part. You'll know what I mean if you've ever watched American hunter classes.

So essentially it's all breeders I'm annoyed with! When I see all these horses going for meat I think, where's the breeder now???
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But only because you don't really understand the different levels of breeding? How many breeders do you personally know? If the ones you know are all like how you describe in your post then I see why you might think the same of all breeders. But you would be wrong to tar every breeder with the same brush.

As a general comment, I do often think on this forum there is a great misunderstanding between breeders breeding quality horses who have been produced from successful proven horses compared to the backyard breeder who breeds his mare to any old stallion around and then sells his youngstock for a just a few hundred pounds.

All of my stock are registered and either microchipped or branded so can always be traced back to me (their breeder) and any horse I have bred or raised will always have a home here if it runs into trouble. I tell all of my buyers this and I keep close track of all of my horses once they've been sold. I am also registered with the tracer companies whereby I state I will always take back a horse I've bred/produced. To be perfectly honest the vast majority of the breeders I know do exactly the same as me.
 
It's like the old inbreeding/linebreeding argument:
- I linebreed, whereas 'im dahn t'road inbreeds
- My breedings are all carefully considered, whereas 'im dahn t'road indiscriminately breeds

;)

I don't breed, but I did buy two youngsters. One was Wolf, who was bred by my friend to keep but then she ended up getting divorced and she could only keep one pony (Wolf's dam). He is a bit of a weird cross and a gamble on my friend's part. I think he's fairly unique and certainly not conventional, but there's something about him and it works. His sire has just lightened his mum's frame off slightly and has smoothed out the paces. The other was Felix, who is the last of a line of very successful full siblings from their sire and dam - the sire and dam were in their 20s when they had him, very much a 'love match', and Felix was their breeder's last ditch attempt to get a filly to keep from her very special mare (she just lurved having colts...). As we already had his full brother his breeder then wore us down till we took Felix too.

The way I look at breeding is that each breeding is potentially 20+ years of horse. If you're not prepared to at least try and look out for that horse for those 20+ years, then you're breeding indiscriminately. Felix's breeder recently went above and beyond on a mercy mission to see some of her 'grandkids' right when they fell on hard times - now that's responsible.
 
Spring Feather, American living in Ireland here. Everything you said is obviously correct. However, what freaks people out here is the abandoned horses and the surplus. Which we have back home too but not really in the sport horse sector. The English discipline horses geared for major shows or "hunter breeding" will be making the money but people are a bit more picky at home as well as here. During the good times anything sold. Not so much anymore. The most popular breeds back home(I just saw this) are: QH, Appaloosa, Arabian, Paint, and then TB. And don't forget the ever increasing popular budget horse, the OTTB.

I said my peace on Dee's thread. I have had progeny from my one mare do well. I won't breed from her anymore as I have her daughter in competition. The next generation. However, any foal is a 5 year plan from conception to starting under saddle and to possible training shows at 4. I really would prefer I start them before offering for sale. So yeah I try to look a little bit in the future. And while anything can happen at anytime, I still want the 5 year plan in my head.

And I'll tell you another thing, blaming the breeder for everything. Cop on. The amount of too much too soon and poor training adds up to quite a bit of waste too. Henceforth why I prefer to keep mine until started under saddle. Raised well and started properly gives them that little bit more of a chance. I like how ruined horses are always the breeders fault and the good they do is all down to the rider. Funny that.

Terri
 
A full ban on breeding means the careless people will still breed. Jumping fences will become the norm.

You can put liscenses in place and people like me would comply. But trying to do that when the passport system doesn't work is a joke. And honest breeders will pay more to fund the irresponsible breeders.

Also with regards to top class competition horses. Once they reach that level, yes they are highly tuned machines. Does not mean that had they not had all that training and specialised skills, they couldn't have been decent all rounders. Obviously some aren't suited. But breeding for temperament is always in your mind when breeding competition horses. No one wants to breed a looney suitable for a pro ride only. And pro's don't want to ride loonies either you know. They can deal with them but the straight forward horse with all the grears and ability suits them better.

Terri
 
I don't think it matters a hoot what class of horse or pony you are breeding, it is "indiscriminate" if there is no market for your stock, even if you are breeding for yourself. Life happens and if events decide you can't keep the foal, it has to be sold. If there is no market, it might have to go for meat or "free to good home". It has been "indiscriminately bred" and that's what happens.

The acid test will always be what sells. I've a friend who is a farmer. He got involved with a girl who was well connected in the sports horse world. They started breeding sports horses and did well. Then they split up and the farmer was left with the horses. What with the knowledgeable side of the business leaving and a collapse in the market, he would be crazy to keep breeding, even quality horses, as they can be bought in cheaper. He can't sell what he has, let alone afford the care they used to get.

If there is a market for what you intend to breed, do the sums and make a decision. I don't care if you are producing top class beautiful athletic horses with the perfect temperament that break themselves, if there is no market, that is indiscriminate breeding in my eyes. Harsh but realistic. Don't breed if you can buy similar cheaper.
 
I don't want a 'competition horse' that wasn't good enough to make the grade, I'd want a nice part-bred that could maybe jump a meter, nanny me round a BE90, look after me on the hunt field, be sensible on the hills/beach and ignore my mad moments when I have a desperation to play gymkhana games again ;) :) - as do a lot of your average joes-- well maybe not the games bit :p

I agree DD that both parents should then be of a reasonable quality but suspect temperament then has to preside over actual ability! :D

and no.. there really aren't that many of them out there to do the above... at various times over the years I've looked :D.
 
This is a difficult one as there are many people who have a nice mare and decide to breed, I did it with a Welsh Sect D X TB X Arab and put her to a TB stallion that was as at a very reputable stud close by. They had 5 TB stallions at stud that year. She produced a lovely very TB ish filly who only made 14.2hh, was aiming for something a little bigger but never had any intention of selling and I still have her now, she will be 20 in July. I think the guilty ones are the ones who breed year in year out without really knowing or caring where that foal is going to end up and not really thinking or caring what quality the off spring is going to be. Even if they breed an ok type they are not prepared to keep it long enough to teach it any basic manners that are so important at the early stage. That is what i would class as indiscriminate.
 
I have a question D_D, if you breed your lovely mare to a lively stallion with the aim of improving on Dees weak areas, what will you do if the foal is not up to scratch? If it throws back some conformation problems that make it not the horse you dreamt of? Would you still keep it forever it would you sell it and try again? (genuine question, as I often wonder this when people breed from much loved mares but for competition).
 
My definition is...

Someone who owns a mare and then breeds just because the mare can no longer be ridden/do what she was originally owned for.
People who own stallions and puts him to any mare passing by.
People who breed just to sell to the meat man when they can't find a mug to buy the ickle pony.
Studs that churn out horse after horse just on the off chance that one might show potential and don't care what happens to the others.
People who buy youngsters thinking that they know what they are doing which encourages breeders to breed more to feed the market.

There are a lot of horsey folks out there who own horses that in their passport have sire/dam unknown...
 
KatPT. Keep it. :). Dees issues are minute not huge so I know that the issues won't be huge. Likewise I know dee's dam and her granddam and of course her sure. I've also loved at the stallion, his foals and the types of mares he's been with the gauge all of this. But, it's still a risk. :). I'd still love it no matter what :)
 
I got my mare when she was in foal to a stallion I wasn't crazy about. The foal was a full TB. It was not a good match for the mare overall. Everyone else thinks Heidi is beautiful. I see a lot of things I'm not crazy about. However, she an absolute diamond and a horse is never part with. For a ginger TB she's just the best. Safe for a total beginner and yet you can still have fun. Not the most talented but she doesn't need to be. She will never be sold as I value her too much and I do not want someone else breeding from her.

That answers the question above although not directed to me. Heidi is now 9 and she's going nowhere.

Terri
 
Delicious_D said:
KatPT. Keep it. :). Dees issues are minute not huge so I know that the issues won't be huge.
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Doesn't the mare have Kissing Spine, SI problems and suspensory issues?
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't yet been proven whether or not KS is genetic, so IMO, thats already a huge gamble.
I realise the vet has passed the mare as fit to foal (although, having seen her vets report I must say I was shocked by this,) and Im sure Delicious_D wont take offence to my comments as its just my own opinion, and I've been honest with her from the start in regards to my feelings on her breeding from Delicia, which are that I don't think its sensible or wise.

That being said, Delicia is a lovely mare, and if it were not for the KS and various other issues that the mare has been subject to recently, I would have been completely behind the decision to put her in foal to a suitable stallion.
 
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The KS were ruled it as an issue as we focus on the pelvis he had no pain response in the back. Suspensories were just normal wear and tear and she has no more heat spots. After that report I got a second opinion. Delicia is healed and sound. :)
 
Personally, I feel you should only breed the best with the best. So, unless a mare and stallion are proven (meaning in my opinion that they have won at a national level or above - not a few rosettes at local dressage/shows) and perfect (no physical or mental issues at all). Anything other than this is a massive compromise. My warmblood mare is very well bred and lovely etc but has suspected SI issues, would I breed from her? no way. In fact, I've just been gifted a lovely little 4 year old who was homebred by a caring owner and then through bad luck found itself homeless.
 
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